Do we really have free will?

InvestigateTruth said:

I don't know why you choose your field of study or the Bahai faith.
But if you really think about it, you were influenced by something or someones.

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So what? We are all influenced by what happened to us in the past. We are all influenced by other people. But that does not mean we do not make our own choices.

InvestigateTruth said:

If you were not, you would nor have come to this direction. There are always, some external influences that cause you to go in a certain direction.

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They influence me to go in a certain direction, but they do not force me to go in that direction.

InvestigateTruth said:

It is like, suppose you come to a place where there are 3 roads ahead of you. The entrance in first one, has fire, and in the second road, there is a lion. The third road, seems to be safe.
So, which direction you go? You go to the third road. Not because you chose it, but because you had no other choice, as the first two roads sounded dangerous.

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But the caveat is that not all people run away from danger. Some people like to take risks rather than taking the safe road. Did Baha'u'llah take the safe and easy road? He had a choice. He could have been a minister in the government, but instead He gave all that up and chose the difficult path and got persecuted and imprisoned and exiled from place to place.

InvestigateTruth said:

So, is everything else in life. I mean, it only appears you have many choices, to choose from. But the reality is, you are just forced to go into certain directions, simply because you would fit into that direction. It is because the environment and your genes had already shaped you for a certain direction.

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Our environment and genes lead us in a certain direction but there are many paths to choose from, not only one. There are some things I would never have chosen to do, but there are other things I could have chosen to do.

Trailblazer said:

Do you think we have free will to make choices or do you think that fate/God is controlling everything we do? In other words, can we make our own choices or is everything we will ever do already been decided upon by God and we are just acting out what has been written on the Tablet of Fate? Are we all just actors in a movie that God has scripted?

I ask this because I do not think I have the free will to change much of anything in my life yet I feel like I need to change many things. But I cannot seem to change them. I am very strong willed person so whenever I set out to do something it gets done, but I cannot seem to make up my mind to do certain things and do them, so I feel stuck in a lifestyle I do not like.

Maybe I am stuck because it is not meant to be that I change anything right now, because I am doing what God has willed/scripted for me, or maybe I should be doing these things. One thing I know is that I cannot make myself do things to change my situation even though I am somewhat unhappy with the way certain things are.

This has nothing to do with money because I have plenty of money, much more than I could ever spend in my lifetime, even if I never worked one more day of my life. Time is an issue since there is only so much time, but why can’t I decide to take the time to do things that I feel I need to do? I am not a lazy person, anything but, so that is not the reason. I am also physically fit and mentally capable, so that’s not it either.

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We have freedom to think and to act, but yes, an individual can have interior reluctance or other blocks, conditioned (learned), that make them hold back from some type(s) of action. When good to do, such blocks can often be improved/reduced. The first step as I understand it would be to discover what one's feeling are in more detail about the thing, associated things, including possible connected aspects or consequences or such that would be invoked, so as to find out what's holding one back in more detail.

Trailblazer said:

So what? We are all influenced by what happened to us in the past. We are all influenced by other people. But that does not mean we do not make our own choices.

They influence me to go in a certain direction, but they do not force me to go in that direction.

But the caveat is that not all people run away from danger. Some people like to take risks rather than taking the safe road. Did Baha'u'llah take the safe and easy road? He had a choice. He could have been a minister in the government, but instead He gave all that up and chose the difficult path and got persecuted and imprisoned and exiled from place to place.

Our environment and genes lead us in a certain direction but there are many paths to choose from, not only one. There are some things I would never have chosen to do, but there are other things I could have chosen to do.

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Well, to me, only at the superficial level it seems we are making our choices. But in reality we are led, into that choice we seem to choose.

Mestemia said:

And?

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There are many others apart from what we have enumerated.

Trailblazer said:

How do you explain that?

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Perhaps because you were young. I was a communist in my early college years.

InvestigateTruth said:

"For Pharaoh and his like were created by a word from Moses. .. all the same color, and therein no conflict or struggle can take place, for the underlying causes of conflict are not visible."

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Would you kindly throw some light on "For Pharaoh and his like were created by a word from Moses". Since you have made it bold, there should be some great meaning in this.

'.. and therein no conflict or struggle can take place, for the underlying causes of conflict are not visible.": Is not the first part in contradiction with the second? What was Bahaollah writing here?

Trailblazer said:

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

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Perhaps there are three. God, bad, and detached, neither good nor bad, uninvolved in both.

Trailblazer said:

I agree that this world is a test, but I believe that God already knows if we will pass that test before we pass it......
God knows the past, present, and future simultaneously because God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of all things, so even if we have not passed a test, God knows if and when and how we will pass it. That means the test is for our benefit, so we can become what we will become by passing the test, that which God already knows we will become.

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God knows what exists and what has existed, how can he know the future when it is yet to exist? Yes, God is beyond time, but time is a construct, only the present exists.

Link said:

God knows what exists and what has existed, how can he know the future when it is yet to exist? Yes, God is beyond time, but time is a construct, only the present exists.

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Time as we know it only exists in the material realm of existence where it can be measured by the sun. God has knowledge of the physical realm, our past, present and future, since God is omniscient, but God is not constrained by time because time as we know it and measure it does not exist in the spiritual realm where God exists.

God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of everything that has happened or ever will happen, before during and after they happen in this world.

“Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

God knows what humans will do before during and after they do it, but God does not cause them to do anything. What causes it to happen is a human free will choice which is a choice God KNOWS we will make before we make it. That choice becomes an action that God KNEW about ahead of time.

God’s knowledge of what will happen in the future does not CAUSE it to happen, not any more than the astronomer’s knowledge of an eclipse causes the eclipse to happen.

Trailblazer said:

Time as we know it only exists in the material realm of existence where it can be measured by the sun. God has knowledge of the physical realm, our past, present and future, since God is omniscient, but God is not constrained by time because time as we know it and measure it does not exist in the spiritual realm where God exists.

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I agree God knows everything that can be known, but future can't be known because it doesn't exist. God exists beyond time, doesn't mean future exists and he sees it. Sorry two different things.

I will say this I truly if God knew Adam would fall or that Satan would fall before creating them, then he is evil for letting it happen and designing it. He was surprised by both of them, his Angel falling through arrogance, and Adam through envy and greed which is by which he was deceived by Satan. Adam turned back and redeemed himself quickly when he fell, and was not stubborn in disbelief and turning away from the proper God, and so was not diminished from being chosen by God. He didn't continue his sin and stopped and repented and many Prophets had moments of doubts and trial, but they turned back to the straight path.

But when he fell, things got complicated fast, for all souls, since, we witnessed and became confused. Some of us believed in Iblis even when he repented, and so things got confusing very fast.

This is why the world had to fall, when Adam fell.

God wanted a perfect world. This is a world that he didn't expect to happen and guidance if the generations following Adam to Nuh stoke to the Guides chosen by God and didn't follow those naming themselves as guides without proof, probably everything would be fine. But infection came there, and we haven't recovered.

Believers saved always from low people in reputation and oppressed, but they tend to turn ungrateful once saved, and so very few accepted God's guides purely out of love. Moses' people accepted him because of fear of Pharaoh and they awaited him out of love of God because they were oppressed. When oppression ceased, they turned ungrateful.

God doesn't even know how we going to treat the Mahdi when he comes, he just knows right now it's not the right time for it.

Link said:

I agree God knows everything that can be known, but future can't be known because it doesn't exist. God exists beyond time, doesn't mean future exists and he sees it. Sorry two different things.

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I believe that the future already exists for God because God is not bound by time. God knows what we will do before we ever even think about it, let alone do it.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Trailblazer said:

I believe that the future already exists for God because God is not bound by time.

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I don't think it follows future already exists because God is not bound by time. Future by definition means it's yet to exist but will come to be.

By the way, historically Imams (a) believed in bada'a (God deciding in real time and bringing new things).

It's part of the heresy Shiites were accused of, but in time, we submitted our minds to the theology of fate that our Imams (a) went out of their way to refute.

We ended up twisting Bada'a into our Imams being revealed new knowledge, and not about God deciding in real time. But the best belief about God per hadiths that Prophets are always first taught about him is belief in Badaa (started knowledge) and in his decisions to, for example, you pray to him, and he decides in real time.

Also there is many verses in Quran about this concept too and are vividly clear.

InvestigateTruth said:

Why not?
Just as there is the Sun, moon, stars,...and other Ordinary planets, and all were created by God for a reason, so, are Bahaullah, Abdulbaha, and the rest of us, are created in the way we are.

For example see what Bahaullah said:



"For Pharaoh and his like were created by a word from Moses. The world of spirits is monochrome, all the same color, and therein no conflict or struggle can take place, for the underlying causes of conflict are not visible. "



It is written that God creates both light and darkness. Both good and evil. He creates all of us, the way we are.

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You seem to have ignored some other posts I made, according to my news feed. What's going on there?

I looked up the quote, and it is paraphrase of what Baha'u'llah said in a provisional translation. How reliable is that? What about what 'Abdu'l-Baha said about free will, who as the interpreter of Baha'u'llah, should take precedence over your interpretation?

Certain matters are subject to the free will of man, such as acting with justice and fairness, or injustice and iniquity — in other words, the choice of good or evil actions. It is clear and evident that the will of man figures greatly in these actions. But there are certain matters where man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, failing powers, misfortune, and material loss: These are not subject to the will of man and he is not accountable for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But he is free in the choice of good and evil actions, and it is of his own accord that he performs them.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", 70.3

Our free will is constrained by our environment and our experiences in my experience, but according to 'Abdu'l-Baha it doesn't disappear. We are not fated to be who we are wholly.

JoshuaTree said:

Matthew 5:29
New International Version

29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

...is this the choice we have?

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“If, now, your right eye is making you stumble,” said Jesus Christ, “tear it out and throw it away from you.” (Matthew 5:29) Of course, Jesus was not speaking literally! Rather, he meant that if we want to please God and gain everlasting life, we must deaden our body members, as it were, in regard to wrongdoing. (Colossians 3:5) That may mean resolutely turning our back on a temptation. “Turn my eyes away from looking at what is worthless,” prayed a faithful man of God.—Psalm 119:37.

DODI said:

“If, now, your right eye is making you stumble,” said Jesus Christ, “tear it out and throw it away from you.” (Matthew 5:29) Of course, Jesus was not speaking literally! Rather, he meant that if we want to please God and gain everlasting life, we must deaden our body members, as it were, in regard to wrongdoing. (Colossians 3:5) That may mean resolutely turning our back on a temptation. “Turn my eyes away from looking at what is worthless,” prayed a faithful man of God.—Psalm 119:37.

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‘If Your Right Eye Makes You Stumble’

Matthew 5:29, 30.

In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gave sound counsel on morality. He knew that our imperfect body members can have a dangerous influence on us. Jesus therefore said: “If, now, that right eye of yours is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. For it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost to you than for your whole body to be pitched into Gehenna. Also, if your right hand is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you. For it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost than for your whole body to land in Gehenna.”—Matt. 5:29, 30.

But how can our “eye” or “hand” cause us to “stumble”?

The “eye” spoken of by Jesus represents the power or ability to focus our attention on something, and the “hand” relates to what we do with our hands. If care is not exercised, these body parts may cause us to “stumble” and cease ‘walking with God.’ (Gen. 5:22; 6:9) When tempted to disobey Jehovah God, then, we need to take strong action, figuratively tearing out an eye or cutting off a hand.

. What can help us to avoid sexual immorality?

How can we restrain our eyes from concentrating on immoral things? “A covenant I have concluded with my eyes,” said the God-fearing man Job. “So how could I show myself attentive to a virgin?” (Job 31:1) Job was a married man who was determined not to violate God’s moral laws. That should be our attitude whether we are married or single. To avoid sexual immorality, we need to be guided by God’s holy spirit, which produces self-control in those who love God.—Gal. 5:22-25.

To avoid sexual immorality, we might do well to ask ourselves, ‘Do I allow my eyes to arouse in me an appetite for immoral material readily found in books, on television, or on the Internet?’ Let us also remember these words of the disciple James: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” (Jas. 1:14, 15) In fact, if any individual dedicated to God “keeps on looking” with immoral motives at someone of the opposite sex, he needs to make drastic changes comparable to tearing out the eye and throwing it away.—Read Matthew 5:27, 28.

What counsel of Paul can help us to fight against immoral desires?

Inasmuch as improper use of our hands can result in serious violations of Jehovah’s moral standards, we must be firmly determined to remain morally clean. Therefore, we should heed Paul’s counsel: “Deaden . . . your body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.” (Col. 3:5) The word “deaden” stresses the strong measures that must be taken to fight against immoral fleshly desires.

Why is it vital to avoid immoral thoughts and acts?
In order to preserve his life, a person is likely to be willing to have a limb surgically amputated. The figurative ‘throwing away’ of the eye and the hand is vital for us to avoid immoral thinking and actions that can cost us our spiritual life. Keeping mentally, morally, and spiritually clean is the only way to escape the everlasting destruction symbolized by Gehenna.

Because of inherited sin and imperfection, maintaining moral cleanness requires effort. “I pummel my body and lead it as a slave,” said Paul, “that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.” (1 Cor. 9:27) Let us therefore be determined to apply Jesus’ counsel on morality, never allowing ourselves to act in ways that show a lack of gratitude for his ransom sacrifice.—Matt. 20:28; Heb. 6:4-6.

Trailblazer said:

I agree with all of the above, which is my belief according to my religion.

I believe that God has the power to alter anything we might choose to do, but God generally does not alter anything we choose, although God might nudge us in a good direction.

I believe we can choose to ignore the nudge.

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We all know what a robot is. It is a machine that is made so that it will do whatever its maker wants it to do. So the robot has no choice. Jehovah God could have made us all to be like robots. He could have made us so that we could do only what he wanted us to do. But God didn’t do that. Well, some toys are robots. When a button is pressed, they do just what the maker of the toy designed them to do. Have you ever seen a toy like that?— Often people get tired of playing with a toy that does only what it has been made, or programmed, to do. God doesn’t want us to obey him because we are robots that are programmed to serve him. Jehovah God wants us to serve him because we love him and because we want to obey him.

DODI said:

“If, now, your right eye is making you stumble,” said Jesus Christ, “tear it out and throw it away from you.” (Matthew 5:29) Of course, Jesus was not speaking literally! Rather, he meant that if we want to please God and gain everlasting life, we must deaden our body members, as it were, in regard to wrongdoing. (Colossians 3:5) That may mean resolutely turning our back on a temptation. “Turn my eyes away from looking at what is worthless,” prayed a faithful man of God.—Psalm 119:37.

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Man will cling to his flesh, he cannot save himself, but with god all things are possible, but at a time and place of God's choosing, not man's.

Truthseeker9 said:

You seem to have ignored some other posts I made, according to my news feed. What's going on there?

I looked up the quote, and it is paraphrase of what Baha'u'llah said in a provisional translation. How reliable is that? What about what 'Abdu'l-Baha said about free will, who as the interpreter of Baha'u'llah, should take precedence over your interpretation?

Certain matters are subject to the free will of man, such as acting with justice and fairness, or injustice and iniquity — in other words, the choice of good or evil actions. It is clear and evident that the will of man figures greatly in these actions. But there are certain matters where man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, failing powers, misfortune, and material loss: These are not subject to the will of man and he is not accountable for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But he is free in the choice of good and evil actions, and it is of his own accord that he performs them.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", 70.3

Our free will is constrained by our environment and our experiences in my experience, but according to 'Abdu'l-Baha it doesn't disappear. We are not fated to be who we are wholly.

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People find such spiritual attributes through practicing the laws of the manifestation of God.
Could a person be just, fair, and good without believing and following the most recent manifestation?

If we say, yes, then that means, it would be unnecessary for manifestations to appear.

Thus, how could a person who does not recognize manifestation "choose" to be fair and just?

On the other hand would you say, it is fate and destiny that a person become a believer, or it is not fate and destiny?

If it is not fate and destiny, then why Bahaullah in His prayer said, God exalts or lowers whoever He wants?


I believe such words of Abdulbaha are intended for believers to read, and be encouraged to become just and fair. By this, He wants to ask us to become fair and just. But if it was not in fate and destiny of a person to become inspired by guidance of God, He would be deprived of spiritual attributes, and thus cannot manifest justice and fairness.

Of course, when manifestation appears, even those who do not believe might be inspired indirectly. But only if they had a chance.

Link said:

I don't think it follows future already exists because God is not bound by time. Future by definition means it's yet to exist but will come to be.

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I do not say that ye future exists before it unfolds, I said that God knows what the future will be before it unfolds.

DODI said:

We all know what a robot is. It is a machine that is made so that it will do whatever its maker wants it to do. So the robot has no choice. Jehovah God could have made us all to be like robots. He could have made us so that we could do only what he wanted us to do. But God didn’t do that. Well, some toys are robots. When a button is pressed, they do just what the maker of the toy designed them to do. Have you ever seen a toy like that?— Often people get tired of playing with a toy that does only what it has been made, or programmed, to do. God doesn’t want us to obey him because we are robots that are programmed to serve him. Jehovah God wants us to serve him because we love him and because we want to obey him.

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I fully agree with everything you said.
Welcome to the forum. I find the Jehovah's Witness beliefs very refreshing, especially the belief that God is not a Trinity, Jesus is not God, and Jesus rose in a spiritual body rather than a physical one. Correct me if I am wrong about the resurrection, as I am going on memory of what other members have said here.