Women should keep silent in the assembly?

Messianic Israelite · Jun 22, 2021

Meow Mix said:
I must have missed the secret feminist meeting where we went over dominating men.

In case it needs to be said, feminism is not about dominating men.

So, the problem with sex and gender roles is that not everyone is the same. People aren't cookie cutter cutouts. There are plenty of women that choose to be housewives and to defer to their husbands on some matters, and as long as that's their choice and it works for them without being coerced, that's fine.

But there are plenty of couples that share leadership and act as a partnership. There are some relationships where "traditional" roles are largely reversed or hybridized. None of these are invalid or even unhealthy by fiat.

Expecting literally everybody to fall into some role just because of their sex or gender is just a recipe for strife and suffering when people whose personality do not match their "designated" roles might be forced by a community, or a partner, or other peer pressure to try to live in a way that isn't in tune with who they are.

If I had a partner that insisted they had the final word and were the "head" over me I'd laugh all the way out the door, and I would never try to enforce that on someone else. I prefer a partnership; that's me. What happens to people that get stuck in roles that don't work for them other than living a lie the rest of their lives?

Hi Meow Mix. Good morning. Feminism to you might not mean domineering over men but I know a number of women who have spouted a lot of hate towards men through feminism. I understand that as you said they are different ways of running a home, but Yahweh's way is best. I sure wouldn't like to be debating with my wife to and fro over decisions simply because my wife doesn't happen to agree. Is that a home you would like to be raised in? Where you and your partner are arguing constantly? Your husband decides to plant some seeds in your garden, you say, actually, I would prefer there to be just grass and you uproot all the seeds. Is that Yahweh's way? I believe in respecting a woman's input and listening to what they have to say.

It's a stock relationship. The wife should have 49% of the stock, the husband 51%. That's Yahweh's way and it works. Are men better at decision making? Yahweh created, He knows. I can't say, but the Word tells us that a woman should be in subjection to the man. There was a major flaw in Eve's decision making process that caused her to eat the fruit and give in to Satan. Now both Adam and Eve gave in to the temptation, but Eve's decision to do so was different to that of Adam. Adam was not deceived like Eve was (1 Timothy 2:14). Therefore, Yahweh gave the right to make decisions to the male.

The most successful marriage that I have ever witnessed came from adhering to this form of headship. Men must act like men and lead.

Deeje · Jun 22, 2021

Meow Mix said:
That’s great for people that choose this and have the right personality; but it seems harmful to me to expect that to work for everyone. Not all men are alike, not all women are alike, and it certainly isn’t the case that we can just assume roles for people based on their sex. That leads to grief because people don’t fit cookie cutter molds like that.

Well, its a choice made by those who willingly put God's will before their own...that is what a Christian is, a footstep follower of Christ...he always put God's will before his own.

If you have no faith in God, or any intention to become a disciple of Christ, then it doesn't matter....does it? You have already made your choice to serve yourself. That's the difference as far as I can see.

Clara Tea · Jun 22, 2021

IndigoChild5559 said:
For what reason would a woman not have the same right as a man to speak in a religious assembly? Other than sheer sexism of course. I'm not speaking of women chatting and gossiping. No one should be rude--men cannot do this either. I'm speaking of the contribution to the learning and worship.

The most well known religious prohibition is from 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

Be aware, of course, that this sort of thing doesn't just exist in Christianity, but other religions as well. Thus, I hope we get responses from multiple religions.

In Orthodox Judaism, for example, the tradition is not to have women rabbis. Now it is controversial there because some women are pushing the envelope and gaining semikha (ordination). That causes a lot of anxiety and hard feelings among those who are opposed. For example, I was reading just the other day about a woman who taught in a Jewish school in the UK. When she received her ordination, she was let go from her job.

BTW, this post is not meant to be a slam of any religion or sect. I think that all of them have made a lot of progress compared to how things were in the past.

Anyhow, this post was inspired by visiting a website outlining the beliefs of Messianic Israelism (I was hoping to better understand one of the writers in this forum). So while some may try to claim that this is a thing of the past, trust me, in some groups it is still very much alive.

Okay, let the discussion begin.

Many religions consider women to be possessions to be seen and not heard. Their role is to look pretty, mate, forgive their cheating husbands (repeatedly), and, above all else.....shut up. They have no role to play in leadership or politics.

You say that things are better? Measured by:

1. Lawsuits against boy-raping priests?
2. Reverend Schuller's son with a bottle of booze in one arm, half-naked blonde broad in another arm, and his pants down in public (photographed) with his penis sticking out. He's also a preacher. (Absolute power corrupts?)
3. Wrecked economy
4. Wrecked environment (trees logged and burning, rivers polluted)
5. Hoards of homeless
6. Religions rallying against universal health care (Remember, Jesus healed the sick and didn't check credit).

Deeje · Jun 22, 2021

epronovost said:
So, in your view, men aren't superior to women, but men have power and authority over women and more power and personal freedom in society thus making them superior hierarchically.

In other words, men are superior to women in everything, but talents and virtues.

No, that is not what I said at all. I said that each have their assignments and are happy to fulfill them, knowing why God made that arrangement in the first place. It creates balance and an atmosphere where competition is not going to cause friction.

It is headship, not dictatorship as I already mentioned. It is exercised in love and is in no way, a position of power. Decisions are arrived at in the family through consultation. All in the family have talents and virtues.

Clara Tea · Jun 22, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
Hi Meow Mix. Good morning. Feminism to you might not mean domineering over men but I know a number of women who have spouted a lot of hate towards men through feminism. I understand that as you said they are different ways of running a home, but Yahweh's way is best. I sure wouldn't like to be debating with my wife to and fro over decisions simply because my wife doesn't happen to agree. Is that a home you would like to be raised in? Where you and your partner are arguing constantly? Your husband decides to plant some seeds in your garden, you say, actually, I would prefer there to be just grass and you uproot all the seeds. Is that Yahweh's way? I believe in respecting a woman's input and listening to what they have to say.

It's a stock relationship. The wife should have 49% of the stock, the husband 51%. That's Yahweh's way and it works. Are men better at decision making? Yahweh created, He knows. I can't say, but the Word tells us that a woman should be in subjection to the man. There was a major flaw in Eve's decision making process that caused her to eat the fruit and give in to Satan. Now both Adam and Eve gave in to the temptation, but Eve's decision to do so was different to that of Adam. Adam was not deceived like Eve was (1 Timothy 2:14). Therefore, Yahweh gave the right to make decisions to the male.

The most successful marriage that I have ever witnessed came from adhering to this form of headship. Men must act like men and lead.

Sometimes I wonder if all women have achieved is the right to pay for half the food on a date.

I listened to a speech about women's rights, but the speaker didn't know how to proceed. It is as if she needed the boldness and expertise of a man to get things done. Could this be a result of always letting the men make the decisions?

But then we come to the senators of California (Feinstein and Boxer). Are they weak women? Look at their records.

Some people believe that we would have peace if women were in charge. But think of Condoleeza Rice urging us to take the war to the enemy.

When Irena Bobbit bobbed it, many women on campuses cheered her efforts. But, of course, that was a matter of revenge for rape (presumably). Still, the level of hostility was huge. Perhaps this is a result of decades of oppression, finally popping out?

Deeje · Jun 22, 2021

ADigitalArtist said:
Both my husband and I agree: I'm the better driver and he the better navigator. Why settle for a one-size-fits-all arrangement when it doesn't?

That covers the car then

.....it doesn't cover the Christian family arrangement however. But it is true that some men are inadequate for the role of head of the household because of personal weaknesses. A wise woman will not take that role away from him (thereby emasculating him and robbing him of confidence in himself continually) but will help him to reason on things so as to make decisions for the good of the whole family, thereby building his confidence in his ability to carry his responsibilities. Nothing wrong with that.

Meow Mix · Jun 22, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
Hi Meow Mix. Good morning. Feminism to you might not mean domineering over men but I know a number of women who have spouted a lot of hate towards men through feminism. I understand that as you said they are different ways of running a home, but Yahweh's way is best. I sure wouldn't like to be debating with my wife to and fro over decisions simply because my wife doesn't happen to agree. Is that a home you would like to be raised in? Where you and your partner are arguing constantly? Your husband decides to plant some seeds in your garden, you say, actually, I would prefer there to be just grass and you uproot all the seeds. Is that Yahweh's way? I believe in respecting a woman's input and listening to what they have to say.

It's a stock relationship. The wife should have 49% of the stock, the husband 51%. That's Yahweh's way and it works. Are men better at decision making? Yahweh created, He knows. I can't say, but the Word tells us that a woman should be in subjection to the man. There was a major flaw in Eve's decision making process that caused her to eat the fruit and give in to Satan. Now both Adam and Eve gave in to the temptation, but Eve's decision to do so was different to that of Adam. Adam was not deceived like Eve was (1 Timothy 2:14). Therefore, Yahweh gave the right to make decisions to the male.

The most successful marriage that I have ever witnessed came from adhering to this form of headship. Men must act like men and lead.

Are you of the opinion that women are never more informed on something to make a better decision, that there aren't relationships where a woman in that relationship is simply a better and more competent leader? (Or, where each person in the relationship is equally competent and capable of making decisions?) Everyone is the same, you think? (Not assuming, hence the question mark, I'm curious?)

I'm not going to get too deeply in the whole concept of blaming all women for one woman's supposed decision, but that's exactly the sort of monolithing that is the problem here.

This is simply misogyny, no matter how it's gussied up as "51%/49%."

Edit: I'm not here to shoot the messenger, I know you're only relaying your beliefs. I find them problematic, however.

Meow Mix · Jun 22, 2021

This is a general rule of thumb: as soon as some belief might be rephrased as something like "well you know women, that's just the way they are," there's a good chance that thing needs to be evaluated for misogyny.

Meow Mix · Jun 22, 2021

Deeje said:
Well, its a choice made by those who willingly put God's will before their own...that is what a Christian is, a footstep follower of Christ...he always put God's will before his own.

If you have no faith in God, or any intention to become a disciple of Christ, then it doesn't matter....does it? You have already made your choice to serve yourself. That's the difference as far as I can see.

As I said, that's great for people that choose it (without coercion). More power to them.

I'm merely observing that I imagine this causes a lot of unnecessary pain, because people do not all have the same personalities. I feel sorry for girls and women that are even now coerced into such roles because of their families, husbands, communities, etc. as I'm sure not every single woman in Christianity agrees with sex/gender-based subservience.

Shadow Wolf · Jun 22, 2021

epronovost said:
The presence of goddesses in a culture's religious belief doesn't mean anything for the status of women. Look at the city of Athens, under the protection of the Goddess Athena, goddess of wisdom, war and crafts. In Athens women were treated in a way akin to that of Saudi Arabia. They were denied education, were confined to their home (or a specific section of their home for the richer ones) and were of course forbidden to participate in the politics of the city nor in any military capacity. Greeks were extremely misogynistic yet they had many important and celebrated goddesses. Ironically, women in Athens even had a lower status and personal freedom than in other Greek cities.

It says a lot that Spartan women were better off than a lot of their other Greek counterparts.
The Romans weren't any better. Anglo-Saxon culture was heavily influenced by the Romans.
Women under Genghis Khan's rule were way better off than any of the aforementioned (just not at all when he conquered a city).

Deeje · Jun 22, 2021

Meow Mix said:
As I said, that's great for people that choose it (without coercion). More power to them.

I'm merely observing that I imagine this causes a lot of unnecessary pain, because people do not all have the same personalities. I feel sorry for girls and women that are even now coerced into such roles because of their families, husbands, communities, etc. as I'm sure not every single woman in Christianity agrees with sex/gender-based subservience.

Anyone who is feeling like it is 'subservience' is not practicing genuine Christianity IMO.

People live in some sort of 'subservience' all their lives, so I'm not sure why doing it for God is such a big deal... :shrug:

Headship just works......that is our experience.

The world does not drive our thinking.....God does, I guess that is the difference.

Meow Mix · Jun 22, 2021

Deeje said:
Anyone who is feeling like it is 'subservience' is not practicing genuine Christianity IMO.

People live in some sort of 'subservience' all their lives, so I'm not sure why doing it for God is such a big deal...

Headship just works......that is our experience.

The world does not drive our thinking.....God does, I guess that is the difference.

Well, like I said I'm not here to rain on peoples' conscious, willing choices.

I was just expressing concern for the women that are stuck with it because of cultural and spousal pressure. Those are the women I worry about. I'm all about women that choose it and think it's right for themselves, that's valid for them.

Edit: And I suppose the worry goes both ways. Not everyone is the same: some men may not want the role of the head either, and that's valid too. Yet I'm sure there are many stuck in a situation because of cultural or spousal pressure. I worry for them too.

It's not the ones that choose this asymmetrical power dynamic that I worry about; it's the ones that don't.

Shadow Wolf · Jun 22, 2021

Meow Mix said:
As I said, that's great for people that choose it (without coercion). More power to them.

I'm merely observing that I imagine this causes a lot of unnecessary pain, because people do not all have the same personalities. I feel sorry for girls and women that are even now coerced into such roles because of their families, husbands, communities, etc. as I'm sure not every single woman in Christianity agrees with sex/gender-based subservience.

I was in a robotics class with a girl who was raised up and expected to be pregnant and in the kitchen because it's what god expects. She's another one who left religion entirely because of the crap Christianity still--to this day--tries to dump on people. Jesus said it's better to tie bricks around your feet and jump in the ocean (exact details might be wrong but it's the same idea) than to drive people away from him.

Meow Mix · Jun 22, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
I was in a robotics class with a girl who was raised up and expected to be pregnant and in the kitchen because it's what god expects. She's another one who left religion entirely because of the crap Christianity still--to this day--tries to dump on people. Jesus said it's better to tie bricks around your feet and jump in the ocean (exact details might be wrong but it's the same idea) than to drive people away from him.

Oof, that would be traumatizing.

Shakeel · Jun 22, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:
That "the man is the head of the woman" statement seems to contradict his "there is no male or female, in Christ" statement.

Latter which contradicts common sense if you're going to take it literally in this world. It's outstanding how far people can go to avoid facts.

Shadow Wolf · Jun 22, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:
Scholars aren't sure if Paul actually wrote those passages or if they were inserted later. They don't seem to fit his other teachings about and interactions with women. That "the man is the head of the woman" statement seems to contradict his "there is no male or female, in Christ" statement.

Does the Bible really tell women to be silent in church?

I don't think that's a very good point. The Declaration says all men are created equal. The Constitution and other documents written by the Framers contradict that.
As for Paul, it's commonly believed that before Christ everyone stands equal (especially trinitarians). But "for everything else" there is are those commandments from Paul. But also the NT which also reaffirms a lower status for women, especially when read through a Christian lens that is being informed by Paul.

Saint Frankenstein · Jun 22, 2021

Shakeel said:
Latter which contradicts common sense if you're going to take it literally in this world. It's outstanding how far people can go to avoid facts.

If God doesn't make a distinction, status-wise, between male and female believers, why would He dictate a strict sex hierarchy in our interactions and relationships? It doesn't make sense. Both cannot be true. Those sexist verses attributed to Paul always seemed out of place to me. There's a context missing from the equation.

Shakeel · Jun 22, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
But I would like to point your attention to the many social justice warriors and feminists calling not simply for equal rights but the domineering of men by women and many of them won't be satisfied until men are succumbing to the wishes of the women. This is not Yahweh's way and is wrong.

It's one of the saddest things to see a marriage or a family lead by a woman. The man in such a marriage is not happy and I believe it is one reason for high divorce rates.

Meow Mix said:
I must have missed the secret feminist meeting where we went over dominating men.

It's not secret. It's out in the open now.

Meow Mix said:
In case it needs to be said, feminism is not about dominating men.

True. It's first and formost about humiliating and degrading women and making them think it's what dignifies them.

Meow Mix said:
whose personality do not match their "designated" roles

It's not the personality that doesn't match. It's the feminist liberal trash that poisons young minds and makes their "personality" that of a selfish cretin.

Hockeycowboy · Jun 22, 2021

Deeje said:
The world does not drive our thinking.....God does, I guess that is the difference.

Our thinking....(Romans 12:2, “Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.” NLT)
.....and our actions, governed by love. — 1 Corinthians 16:14, “Let everything you do be done with love.” NWT

Headship like that, is absent from most of the world.

Shakeel · Jun 22, 2021

Meow Mix said:
Are you of the opinion that women are never more informed on something to make a better decision, that there aren't relationships where a woman in that relationship is simply a better and more competent leader?

Marriage is not about deciding and making clear who is better. It's about order. If the woman feels the man is inadequate at something she can a) advise respectfully, b) be quiet and accept that life isn't perfect or c) if it's a serious matter, ask someone else to advise her husband.

Meow Mix said:
New This is a general rule of thumb: as soon as some belief might be rephrased as something like "well you know women, that's just the way they are," there's a good chance that thing needs to be evaluated for misogyny.

Misogyny is a new concept, not something objective. It's like homophobia. It's supposed to be something very bad and I'm supposed to be insulted by it, but the actual meaning is that I oppose homosexual relationships and acts. It doesn't really matter what you call it.

There's nothing wrong with recognizing that women have certain characteristics and accepting that. It's good for women so that they can be women.

Women should keep silent in the assembly?

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