Women should keep silent in the assembly?

Saint Frankenstein · Jun 21, 2021

epronovost said:
Also a good example.

Never look at female deities to look at the status of women in society. At best they are a representation of how he author of the myth perceived women or, in the case of Athena, a psychosexual allegory on the unobtainable desires of men (or both).

The Greeks were very bizarre. They preferred men and boys over women for love and sex, and women were only kept around for carrying on the family, it seems. I love the ancient Greeks but we have to be honest about these things.

amorphous_constellation · Jun 21, 2021

epronovost said:
The presence of goddesses in a culture's religious belief doesn't mean anything for the status of women. Look at the city of Athens, under the protection of the Goddess Athena, goddess of wisdom, war and crafts. In Athens women were treated in a way akin to that of Saudi Arabia. They were denied education, were confined to their home (or a specific section of their home for the richer ones) and were of course forbidden to participate in the politics of the city nor in any military capacity. Greeks were extremely misogynistic yet they had many important and celebrated goddesses. Ironically, women in Athens even had a lower status and personal freedom than in other Greek cities.

Have you read the mythology of the Celts and Norse? The stories they have are often not as far into the masculine side of the distribution, as they are clearly tempered with feminine power and ability. Brynhild is able to initially dissuade a marriage request from Sigurd, and instead says she wants to go be a warrior. She could also produce incredible tapestries of woven gold, but no one forces her to just do that either. The warrior queen Boadicea, on the celtic end, was able to fight off tens of thousands of romans

Brickjectivity · Jun 21, 2021

IndigoChild5559 said:
For what reason would a woman not have the same right as a man to speak in a religious assembly? Other than sheer sexism of course. I'm not speaking of women chatting and gossiping. No one should be rude--men cannot do this either. I'm speaking of the contribution to the learning and worship.

The most well known religious prohibition is from 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

Be aware, of course, that this sort of thing doesn't just exist in Christianity, but other religions as well. Thus, I hope we get responses from multiple religions.

In Orthodox Judaism, for example, the tradition is not to have women rabbis. Now it is controversial there because some women are pushing the envelope and gaining semikha (ordination). That causes a lot of anxiety and hard feelings among those who are opposed. For example, I was reading just the other day about a woman who taught in a Jewish school in the UK. When she received her ordination, she was let go from her job.

BTW, this post is not meant to be a slam of any religion or sect. I think that all of them have made a lot of progress compared to how things were in the past.

Anyhow, this post was inspired by visiting a website outlining the beliefs of Messianic Israelism (I was hoping to better understand one of the writers in this forum). So while some may try to claim that this is a thing of the past, trust me, in some groups it is still very much alive.

Okay, let the discussion begin.

I could discuss it in scriptural or biblical debates, but this isn't the right area. There are actually several questions in your question. For what purpose is the verse in question written, what does it mean, what is its practical effect in ancient times, and what is its practical effect in modern times. It has been interpreted several ways in modern times and in centuries in between.

ADigitalArtist · Jun 21, 2021

Deeje said:
That was never the case.....its like an automobile...it has only one set of instruments...one steering wheel, one set of brakes and one accelerator. In the family, God has appointed the husband as the designated driver, and he is in the main one in the driver's seat. That doesn't mean that others in his vehicle are prisoners, or have no input.....the passenger seat is occupied by one who can act as a navigator. The man is obligated as family head to care for his wife and family the way Christ cared for his disciples...with love and patience and understanding. Males and females have a different approach to things and if everyone stays in their designated role, each will appreciate the importance of the other's role......each are needed as it creates a perfect balance.

Men are not superior or more qualified, although some men view that role as dictatorial.....it was never meant to be that way. Both roles are equally valued and if things go belly up over a poor decision made by the male....the buck stops with him.

Both my husband and I agree: I'm the better driver and he the better navigator. Why settle for a one-size-fits-all arrangement when it doesn't?

epronovost · Jun 21, 2021

ideogenous_mover said:
Have you read the mythology of the Celts and Norse? The stories they have are often not as far into the masculine side of the distribution, as they are clearly tempered with feminine power and ability. Brynhild literally refuses to marry Sigurd, and instead says she wants to go be a warrior. She could also produce incredible tapestries of woven gold, but no one forces her to just do that either. The warrior queen Boadicea, on the celtic end, was able to fight off tens of thousands of romans

Yes I have read those myths and I have also read actual historical sources and comments on Norse people. I'm afraid to tell you, that despite being significantly more liberal toward women than Greeks or Romans for example, Norse people were still patriarchal; the Breton, the Saxons were worst but still better than the two first ones on that point. They were not equalitarian society and I would refrain if I were you from using one known example of a female leader to assess the status of women in general in a society and in culture, even more so if they are mythical women and not historical characters.

amorphous_constellation · Jun 21, 2021

epronovost said:
Yes I have read those myths and I have also read actual historical sources and comments on Norse people. I'm afraid to tell you, that despite being significantly more liberal toward women than Greeks or Romans for example, Norse people were still patriarchal; the Breton, the Saxons were worst but still better than the two first ones on that point. They were not equalitarian society and I would refrain if I were you from using one known example of a female leader to assess the status of women in general in a society and in culture, even more so if they are mythical women and not historical characters.

Another example is Grimhild, a feared 'witch' queen who figures prominently and powerfully in the tales. I didn't say they were perfect myself, and I often try to post with an aim toward the nuances and complexities of things, if I can. In the future, I will include that more explicitly, to temper my arguments. What did you find out about the saxons or bretons?

Messianic Israelite · Jun 21, 2021

IndigoChild5559 said:
For what reason would a woman not have the same right as a man to speak in a religious assembly? Other than sheer sexism of course. I'm not speaking of women chatting and gossiping. No one should be rude--men cannot do this either. I'm speaking of the contribution to the learning and worship.

The most well known religious prohibition is from 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

Be aware, of course, that this sort of thing doesn't just exist in Christianity, but other religions as well. Thus, I hope we get responses from multiple religions.

In Orthodox Judaism, for example, the tradition is not to have women rabbis. Now it is controversial there because some women are pushing the envelope and gaining semikha (ordination). That causes a lot of anxiety and hard feelings among those who are opposed. For example, I was reading just the other day about a woman who taught in a Jewish school in the UK. When she received her ordination, she was let go from her job.

BTW, this post is not meant to be a slam of any religion or sect. I think that all of them have made a lot of progress compared to how things were in the past.

Anyhow, this post was inspired by visiting a website outlining the beliefs of Messianic Israelism (I was hoping to better understand one of the writers in this forum). So while some may try to claim that this is a thing of the past, trust me, in some groups it is still very much alive.

Okay, let the discussion begin.

Hi IndigoChild5559. Good evening. In my faith, women aren't allowed to preach and Paul as you rightly stated said that women should not preach. The Bible I don't consider to be sexist. The Bible does teach headship. 1 Corinthians 11:1-3 says that the head of every woman is the man, and the head of the man the Messiah and the head of the Messiah is Yahweh. Yahweh is orderly, and this is the way things must be to create order.

The people of the world today are living in times of revolution and change. Equal rights for women are being continually legislated. The Bible does indeed teach equal rights for women where salvation is concerned, but conversely, it also teaches that the male of the human race was created to be the leader of the family (and the assembly) and the woman is the weaker vessel and needs the love, protection and strength of the male. For a woman to submit herself to her husband or father is not a spiritual weakness within her, but it is recognising a fact that has existed since creation. If we overturn the structure that our Heavenly Father has established it will only be us who will suffer.

Consequently, the Bible teaches that a man was made in the image of Yahweh, the Heavenly Father, while the woman stands in the position of the assistant which is depicted by the High Priest, who today is Yahshua the Messiah. The Bible is quite plain on this teaching. The woman received a command to be in subjection to her husband after sinning in the garden of Eden. It is for the best interest of all of us that we were given these instructions by Yahweh.

Stevicus · Jun 21, 2021

IndigoChild5559 said:
For what reason would a woman not have the same right as a man to speak in a religious assembly? Other than sheer sexism of course. I'm not speaking of women chatting and gossiping. No one should be rude--men cannot do this either. I'm speaking of the contribution to the learning and worship.

The most well known religious prohibition is from 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

Be aware, of course, that this sort of thing doesn't just exist in Christianity, but other religions as well. Thus, I hope we get responses from multiple religions.

In Orthodox Judaism, for example, the tradition is not to have women rabbis. Now it is controversial there because some women are pushing the envelope and gaining semikha (ordination). That causes a lot of anxiety and hard feelings among those who are opposed. For example, I was reading just the other day about a woman who taught in a Jewish school in the UK. When she received her ordination, she was let go from her job.

BTW, this post is not meant to be a slam of any religion or sect. I think that all of them have made a lot of progress compared to how things were in the past.

Anyhow, this post was inspired by visiting a website outlining the beliefs of Messianic Israelism (I was hoping to better understand one of the writers in this forum). So while some may try to claim that this is a thing of the past, trust me, in some groups it is still very much alive.

Okay, let the discussion begin.

Back in my churchgoing days, I recall occasional discussions about whether or not women should be allowed to be priests, but I think some denominations allow women to become clergy. Same religion, but different denomination, different rules. At least people have the right to take their pick.

I seriously doubt that the Catholic Church would ever allow women to become priests, but I wonder, what if they did? Would men be allowed to become nuns?

rational experiences · Jun 21, 2021

O God earth a planet not man.
Owned mass beginning hot spirit gas out into space womb.

Human man human men science agreement for humans.

The ism.
The ist.

Gases began as burning gases end as burning natural light.

Beginning and end burning.

The ism. Satanism.
The ist. Satanist a man's title I l ist ideas.

So stop lying.

God O Cycle circle. G spiral movement.

The creator movement upon the face of the great deep. Space womb.

In the assembly of form womb female role does not speak.

Man listing speaks words and numbers is a liar. Womb owns no words or sounds does not speak.

Science thesis philosophical first.

G spiral O sun moves downwards with universe cooling.

Into womb of no thesis no words hence do not speak about it is a man's heard AI subliminal voice heavenly encoded transmitted back self advice.

God voice of man scientist said warning after he was life harmed in science heard speaking.

Man should not be speaking about conditions that never spoke his own advice.

Just remember brother father and mother are two separate humans. Mother never invented science you did.

Saint Frankenstein · Jun 21, 2021

Stevicus said:
Would men be allowed to become nuns?

The male equivalent of a nun is a monk. They have monks already...

epronovost · Jun 21, 2021

ideogenous_mover said:
What did you find out about the saxons or bretons?

Well for example, that according to the Aethelberht's law that women, once married was consider subject to her husband and his property though, unlike Greek women for example, she could own property herself. Also if a man steals an other man's wife, he can keep her if he refunds the Bride's price to his rival, charming isn't it?

amorphous_constellation · Jun 21, 2021

epronovost said:
Well for example, that according to the Aethelberht's law that women, once married was consider subject to her husband and his property though, unlike Greek women for example, she could own property herself. Also if a man steals an other man's wife, he can keep her if he refunds the Bride's price to his rival, charming isn't it?

Well what i find interesting is that despite things like that , and I think a similar example might be found in the Burgundian code, the norse myths seem to emphasize a consent issue with Brynhild. I don't recall reading that kind of thing in the bible. So that shows that things like this were probably socially more complicated, than what a bare reading of those laws would interpret

epronovost · Jun 21, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
The woman received a command to be in subjection to her husband after sinning in the garden of Eden. It is for the best interest of all of us that we were given these instructions by Yahweh.

ironic that the last hundred years have seen the Western World move away from this notion and has achieved an unprecedented level of development, personal freedom, peace and cultural production thanks to it.

epronovost · Jun 21, 2021

ideogenous_mover said:
Well what i find interesting is that despite things like that , and I think a similar example might be found in the Burgundian code, the norse myths often seem to coalesce around a consent issue. The women often object in some fashion. I don't recall reading that kind of thing in the bible. So that shows that things like this were probably socially more complicated, than what a bare reading of those laws would interpret

For example it leaves out violence and threat of violence. In all those laws, a man can beat his wife and children or threaten them of such things. Male headship was the norm amongst Norse and Celts.

PS: there are no similar law in the OT nor in most culture. Amongst the Norse, stealing another man's wife is basically an act of war.

Estro Felino · Jun 21, 2021

...which is light years away from what we see today. It is sad to admit that the 80% of people who attend churches frequently (I am speaking of RCC) are women.
Each parish has its own prayer and singing groups (Renewal of the Holy Spirit...etc...) and groups are led by women who often are very influential, sometimes more than the parson.

Saint Frankenstein · Jun 21, 2021

Estro Felino said:
...which is light years away from what we see today. It is sad to admit that the 80% of people who attend churches frequently (I am speaking of RCC) are women.
Each parish has its own prayer and singing groups (Renewal of the Holy Spirit...etc...) and groups are led by women who often are very influential, sometimes more than the parson.

Yeah, most church congregations (Catholic or mainline Protestant) are mostly women now, especially older women. Young men are rare.

loverofhumanity · Jun 21, 2021

IndigoChild5559 said:
For what reason would a woman not have the same right as a man to speak in a religious assembly? Other than sheer sexism of course. I'm not speaking of women chatting and gossiping. No one should be rude--men cannot do this either. I'm speaking of the contribution to the learning and worship.

The most well known religious prohibition is from 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

Be aware, of course, that this sort of thing doesn't just exist in Christianity, but other religions as well. Thus, I hope we get responses from multiple religions.

In Orthodox Judaism, for example, the tradition is not to have women rabbis. Now it is controversial there because some women are pushing the envelope and gaining semikha (ordination). That causes a lot of anxiety and hard feelings among those who are opposed. For example, I was reading just the other day about a woman who taught in a Jewish school in the UK. When she received her ordination, she was let go from her job.

BTW, this post is not meant to be a slam of any religion or sect. I think that all of them have made a lot of progress compared to how things were in the past.

Anyhow, this post was inspired by visiting a website outlining the beliefs of Messianic Israelism (I was hoping to better understand one of the writers in this forum). So while some may try to claim that this is a thing of the past, trust me, in some groups it is still very much alive.

Okay, let the discussion begin.

Those words are not spoken by Christ. So I would not say they are a part of God’s Revelation through Jesus.

By design, men and women have different roles in society. Nature chose women to bear children so are we going to call that discrimination against men?

In past ages, men have dominated primarily because women overall lacked education. But gradually they are becoming man’s equal in many fields and disciplines. So in the past, due to lack of education, women may have been seen as inferior and derogative remarks said about them, but now educated, this is fast changing.

Messianic Israelite · Jun 21, 2021

epronovost said:
ironic that the last hundred years have seen the Western World move away from this notion and has achieved an unprecedented level of development, personal freedom, peace and cultural production thanks to it.

Good morning epronovost. Women can still live fulfilling lives, it's just that headship in the Bible teaches that a woman should be in subjection. The Bible also teaches that a man should be in subjection to the Messiah also (1 Corinthians 11:1-3). But I would like to point your attention to the many social justice warriors and feminists calling not simply for equal rights but the domineering of men by women and many of them won't be satisfied until men are succumbing to the wishes of the women. This is not Yahweh's way and is wrong.

The man was given the responsibility by Almighty Yahweh of leading and guiding the family. The woman was placed under his leadership, to be in subjection to the man just as Almighty Yahweh stands above the Messiah in position. The woman was created as the counterpart of man (neged - or opposite, #5048 in Strongs Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible), made in his image, flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. Yahweh intended the man to be the protector of the woman who is called the weaker vessel, physically speaking (1 Peter 3:7).

Nowhere does the Bible teach a doctrine such as the modern-day women's lib, that is the customary theme of the female activists in contemporary society. The Bible teaches that all members of the creation of Yahweh should recognise their unique positions into which our Creator has placed them. If each one fulfils the role for which Almighty Yahweh made them, the delicate balance that was engineered into creation will be maintained and each individual will attain personal fulfilment.

Meow Mix · Jun 21, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
But I would like to point your attention to the many social justice warriors and feminists calling not simply for equal rights but the domineering of men by women and many of them won't be satisfied until men are succumbing to the wishes of the women.

I must have missed the secret feminist meeting where we went over dominating men.

In case it needs to be said, feminism is not about dominating men.

Messianic Israelite said:
The Bible teaches that all members of the creation of Yahweh should recognise their unique positions into which our Creator has placed them. If each one fulfils the role for which Almighty Yahweh made them, the delicate balance that was engineered into creation will be maintained and each individual will attain personal fulfilment.

So, the problem with sex and gender roles is that not everyone is the same. People aren't cookie cutter cutouts. There are plenty of women that choose to be housewives and to defer to their husbands on some matters, and as long as that's their choice and it works for them without being coerced, that's fine.

But there are plenty of couples that share leadership and act as a partnership. There are some relationships where "traditional" roles are largely reversed or hybridized. None of these are invalid or even unhealthy by fiat.

Expecting literally everybody to fall into some role just because of their sex or gender is just a recipe for strife and suffering when people whose personality do not match their "designated" roles might be forced by a community, or a partner, or other peer pressure to try to live in a way that isn't in tune with who they are.

If I had a partner that insisted they had the final word and were the "head" over me I'd laugh all the way out the door, and I would never try to enforce that on someone else. I prefer a partnership; that's me. What happens to people that get stuck in roles that don't work for them other than living a lie the rest of their lives?

Spirit of Light · Jun 22, 2021

lostwanderingsoul said:
People do not care what God says or wants. Why should women keep quiet in church? Because God says so.

Many people do care what God can teach us. Does that mean females should always stay silent? No, females has a lot of good wisdom too.

Women should keep silent in the assembly?

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