Biblical Mary!

actsfourthirty said:

Only God may be worshiped yes

Is reverence and honor worship?

Click to expand...

Not necessarily as I have outlined in detail.....but when it is accorded to non-living images it becomes worship. It is an act of disobedience to “MAKE” them and use them in worship. Are you pretending that the church does not breach the second Commandment?

Does justification by the church change that? Bowing before images is idolatry plain and simple.

1John 5:19-21....
“We know that we are God’s children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols.” (NRSVCE)

one thing at a time

Click to expand...

Yes.....I hope I gave you many things to address....answer them one at a time....I’m in no hurry. I am sure that there are Catholic people reading, and as eager to hear your responses as I am.

actsfourthirty said:

thanks
Our religion is revealed by God who can neither deceive or be deceived

Click to expand...

Don't believe you

Probably most Christians "venerate" the Bible but that is not the same as a "worship" of the Bible.

Deeje said:

Not necessarily as I have outlined in detail.....but when it is accorded to non-living images it becomes worship. It is an act of disobedience to “MAKE” them and use them in worship. Are you pretending that the church does not breach the second Commandment?

Does justification by the church change that? Bowing before images is idolatry plain and simple.

1John 5:19-21....
“We know that we are God’s children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols.” (NRSVCE)


Yes.....I hope I gave you many things to address....answer them one at a time....I’m in no hurry. I am sure that there are Catholic people reading, and as eager to hear your responses as I am.

Click to expand...

thanks

take a step back
Are images forbidden
Not idols not worship
Just images?

Alex22 said:

Don't believe you

Click to expand...

thanks
You don’t need to believe me
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

actsfourthirty said:

take a step back
Are images forbidden
Not idols not worship
Just images?

Click to expand...

Here’s a step back.....


What ever happened to Exodus 20:4-5...?
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them". (RSVCE)

This undue devotion to Mary is a blatant breach of the second Commandment....

It says not to “MAKE IMAGES OF ANYTHING” or bow to them....

Sorry that excuse doesn’t wash. This is wilful disobedience.....idolatry, plain and simple.

actsfourthirty said:

thanks
You don’t need to believe me
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Click to expand...

I also don't believe your Bible.

Alex22 said:

I also don't believe your Bible.

Click to expand...

the heavens declare the glory of God
Cos they are ordered so there must be a all mighty God who ordered them

Deeje said:

Here’s a step back.....

What ever happened to Exodus 20:4-5...?
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them". (RSVCE)

This undue devotion to Mary is a blatant breach of the second Commandment....

It says not to “MAKE IMAGES OF ANYTHING” or bow to them....

Sorry that excuse doesn’t wash. This is wilful disobedience.....idolatry, plain and simple.

Click to expand...

mom that’s called the iconoclast and it was condemned by the authority of Christ thru his church by the apostles in the 7th century by the 2nd holy apostolic council of nicea

Images are not forbidden, such as the cherubim on the ark of the covenant exod 25:18 and the bronze serpent num 21:9 and Jn 3:14 are not forbidden but even commanded, graven or worshiped images are forbidden such as the golden calf!

actsfourthirty said:

the heavens declare the glory of God
Cos they are ordered so there must be a all mighty God who ordered them

Click to expand...

Nope

actsfourthirty said:

mom that’s called the iconoclast and it was condemned by the authority of Christ thru his church by the apostles in the 7th century by the 2nd holy apostolic council of nicea

Click to expand...

LOL...condemned and then continued....???

We go back to......

What ever happened to Exodus 20:4-5...?
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them". (RSVCE)

This undue devotion to Mary is a blatant breach of the second Commandment....

It says not to “MAKE IMAGES OF ANYTHING” or bow down to them....

You keep skirting around this as if God never said "don't make images to use in worship"....what part of don't "MAKE" them does the church not understand?

Images are not forbidden, such as the cherubim on the ark of the covenant exod 25:18 and the bronze serpent num 21:9 and Jn 3:14 are not forbidden but even commanded, graven or worshiped images are forbidden such as the golden calf!

Click to expand...

Oh dear......Do you ever do any research at all or do you just accept what your church says about these things?

The cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant were commanded by God and he gave specific instructions about how they were to be made, even giving the artisans that crafted them, the needed skills.......the only person who saw them after they were installed in the Most Holy compartment of the Tabernacle or the Temple, was the High Priest....and only once a year.....NOT the same thing at all.
Whenever the Ark was transported the whole thing was covered so that no one ever saw it. No human was permitted to touch it under penalty of death. (Numbers 4:19-20)

The copper/bronze serpent that Moses was commanded to make was also from God......not Moses.
"And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." (RSVCE)

Later when Israel began to treat the copper serpent as an idol, it was destroyed.

2 Kings 18:4...
King Hezekiah..."removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Ashe′rah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had burned incense to it; it was called Nehush′tan.".....a "thing of brass" that became an idol because of burning incense to it.
Look carefully at what the Pope is doing to the image of Mary. Do you not see the problem?

If you do no research, then I'm afraid that your church's rehearsed responses will be shot down by the truth, exposing them for the many falsehoods that they teach. I believe that your faith in the RCC is sadly misplaced. Christendom shows herself to be the weeds of Jesus' parable....counterfeit Christians.

What does the Bible tell us about Mary where the Messiah was involved?

As far as scripture is concerned, there are only 3 times mentioned where the Messiah spoke to Mary. And He seemed to be a bit perturbed with her 2 of those times. The 3rd time He merely told her to look at her son. He never addressed her as mother but only as woman. Although He did know of the word when He told the disciple at the cross to look at his (the disciple's) mother.

Also, He only spoke 2 times with regard to what someone said about her and again His responses couldn't be considered very flattering.

There just never seemed to be any warmth shown between them.

Also, other than Galatians 4:4 saying that the Messiah was born of a woman, any thoughts on why Mary is not mentioned by any of the writers in the New Testament epistles including the one to Rome and the 2 by Peter? Why do you suppose that they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to include any of the Church's dogmas regarding Mary if she is intended to be such a vital part of the Catholic Latin Rite practicing theology?

rstrats said:

Also, other than Galatians 4:4 saying that the Messiah was born of a woman, any thoughts on why Mary is not mentioned by any of the writers in the New Testament epistles including the one to Rome and the 2 by Peter? Why do you suppose that they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to include any of the Church's dogmas regarding Mary if she is intended to be such a vital part of the Catholic Latin Rite practicing theology?

Click to expand...

The epistles are not a whole treatise on Christianity, and two or three Mary's are mentioned in the four gospels. Do we have to see Mary as the 'Mother of God' in order to be catholic? Do we have to not see her this way? What is required of us is not to talk badly about other people and to not judge the poor. The catholics have dropped any requirement to recognize the popes and the authority of bishops, so their doctrines ("Dogmas" is latin) are not such a problem. That is enough to meet with catholics. Already the various churches have joint missions and are putting behind them the anger of the past. There is a different arbitrary requirement that people press which is the fundamentalist requirement. The problem with it is that the epistles are not a whole treatise on Christianity. The entire concept of inspiration by the holy spirit is that we don't have to be inspired through acceptable channels. This is most evident in Jesus soliloquy to Nicodemus in John 3. Therefore inspiration should be expected from unexpected directions.

Brickjectivity said:

The epistles are not a whole treatise on Christianity...

Click to expand...

The topic is "Biblical Mary!" so any treatises on Christianity outside of Scripture would be dealing with issues for a different one.

rstrats said:

The topic is "Biblical Mary!" so any treatises on Christianity outside of Scripture would be dealing with issues for a different one.

Click to expand...

rstrats said:

Why do you suppose that they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to include any of the Church's dogmas regarding Mary if she is intended to be such a vital part of the Catholic Latin Rite practicing theology?

Click to expand...

You ask an external question about latin rites trying to take pot shots at some christian rites you don't approve of. "Why do you suppose that they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to include any of the Church's dogmas regarding Mary" is answered by Jesus soliloquy in John 3. He says the spirit goes where it wills, and we cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. Therefore your criticism of the romans is not biblical. Maybe they simply received from the spirit from some direction you did not expect. Demanding the holy spirit to only come through the epistles is not biblical.

Brickjectivity said:

You ask an external question about latin rites trying to take pot shots at some christian rites you don't approve of...Maybe they simply received from the spirit from some direction you did not expect. Demanding the holy spirit to only come through the epistles is not biblical.

Click to expand...

Again, the topic is "Biblical Mary". Your reply seems to imply that maybe the Spirit didn't think her important enough to include her there at that level but would mention her through other means. Fair enough, that's all I was asking. And I'm not demanding anything.

Perhaps someone else may have some other ideas to add.

actsfourthirty said:

the heavens declare the glory of God
Cos they are ordered so there must be a all mighty God who ordered them

Click to expand...

Oy!

rstrats said:

Again, the topic is "Biblical Mary". Your reply seems to imply that maybe the Spirit didn't think her important enough to include her there at that level but would mention her through other means. Fair enough, that's all I was asking. And I'm not demanding anything.

Perhaps someone else may have some other ideas to add.

Click to expand...

You asked an external question about Latin rites. You brought the subject in, but you don't want to hear anyone who replies. The word 'Blessed' is itself not defined in the scripture, so if Mary is blessed among women that should indicate immediately there could be more to the story than simply what is in the scripture. We could consult ancient Jewish sources to tell us what blessed means, but that might threaten your own ideas about Mary. Can't have that! Saying bible only is not an argument, because the bible itself suggests outside information is needed. Obviously we aren't discussing outside information, so why try to prosecute the catholic rites? The fact that Moses wears a veil and that Jesus talks in riddles ought to clue you in to the need for additional thought, but you are so interested in prosecuting the catholics that everything else fades around you. Their rites aren't specifically described, so you beat up the rites from a position where you can claim no replies are allowed. This is not a good argument against catholic rites.