So Jesus is not God?

John1.12 said:

You don't know ' What' God is . Do you imagine a giant white bearded man floating on the clouds?

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• What is the purpose of your Jesus god-man being granted to sit by the throne of David which is an earthly (creation) throne when he, your trinity three god in one person essence is ALMIGHTY RULER over the GREATER KINGDOM OF HEAVEN?

Soapy said:

No, it does not help me… because no one ever said that Jesus was the Father.

You made that up just so you could deny it - what nonsense levels Trinitarians go to!!

But then again, you don’t say that Jesus isn’t the Holy Spirit… so you believe that Jesus is the Holy Spirit - is that what you believe???

Jesus is a MAN anointed with Holy Spirit and with Power.

Jesus says that it was because the Father was in him (by means of the Father’s holy Spirit) why he was able to do the things that he did.

GOD said that he would put his Holy Spirit on the messiah and that the messiah would do His Will in bringing salvation to the nations.

If a man says he is going to cut the grass on his lawn with a lawnmower, and then does it, do you say that the lawnmower is the man?
My guess is that you would say, ‘No!’… yet here you are saying that Jesus is Almighty God because Almighty God said he would use the messiah to save his people by bringing redemption to them.

You said that it is blasphemy that the blessed, anointed (Christ) man should be talked about on so many Bible books and chapters… Yet those books chapters are the very TESTIMONY that the man Jesus WAS SENT by the Father to testify about.

In fact, Jesus says that eternal life depended on believing that Father SENT HIM to testify about the Father…

So, I guess that eternal life is not what your belief is about…. Pity! Jesus’ sacrifice is therefore wasted on you and those who are of the same belief as you.

In fact, what did your god-man Jesus NOT DYING do for the salvation of mankind?

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Soapy said:

@John 1.12, where did you get that imagery from for you to be claiming that if is my imagery? When did I give you the impression that I believed such a claim?

See, like all trinitarians, when you have found out that you’d belief is inconsistent with the truth you resort to squibble…

ALMIGHTY GOD is SPIRIT… Spirit does not have a white beard…!!!

@John 1.12, you might (but highly unlikely) do better to present what you call ‘proof’ of your trinity tripe or at least answer the questions I set to you. And then if you begin to realise that what you have been wrongly taught actually is not what scriptures says, then perhaps you can start thinking about changing your view point to one that is consistent with the scriptures.

So, I ask you again:

• What is the purpose of your Jesus god-man being granted to sit by the throne of David which is an earthly (creation) throne when he, your trinity three god in one person essence is ALMIGHTY RULER over the GREATER KINGDOM OF HEAVEN?

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John1.12 said:

I literally said Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.

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• Jesus is the Father
• Jesus is the Holy Spirit

• Jesus is GOD
• GOD is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

• GOD is ESSENCE
• Jesus is GOD
• Jesus is ESSENCE

• Jesus is the Son of GOD
• Jesus is GOD
• Jesus is SON OF HIMSELF

• Jesus raised himself from the dead
• The Father raised Jesus from the dead
• Therefore Jesus is the Father who raised himself, Jesus, from the dead!!

John1.12 said:

In order for Jesus to fulfil all things he doesn't rely on his own power, but instead the power of the Spirit. Your pointing out the things that you think deny his divinity, missing the point that he laid down his power ,so to speak .

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• ‘By myself I can do nothing - it is the Father working in me that does the work’

Soapy said:

Oh wow… now your Jesus God-man has powers different to the GOD that you say he is… amazing!!!

Did Jesus say he wasn’t relying on his own powers? No! He said the things he did were by the power of his Father…and:

• ‘By myself I can do nothing - it is the Father working in me that does the work’

Jesus gives glory to his Father God for the ability to do the works of the Father… the Father’s Holy Spirit is the enabler… which is why at Pentecost the apostles were similarly ANOINTED with the Father’s Holy Spirit and we’re thus able to do works of wonder that astonished onlookers.

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Soapy said:

Only ‘literally’?

Why not ‘Actually’?

And, in any case, NO ONE EVER SAID:

• Jesus is the Father
• Jesus is the Holy Spirit

No one ever said that….

So for you to DENY those things is pointless argument!!!

But by IMPLICATION it IS WHAT YOU SAID:

• Jesus is GOD
• GOD is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

• GOD is ESSENCE
• Jesus is GOD
• Jesus is ESSENCE

• Jesus is the Son of GOD
• Jesus is GOD
• Jesus is SON OF HIMSELF

Those are things you said by implication of your supposed definition of God and Jesus.

This is why you imagined that Jesus raised himself from the dead … you said… because Jesus is God… you said… Yet scriptures says that it was the Father, by his Holy Spirit, that raised Jesus from the dead….

Once again, you imply that:

• Jesus raised himself from the dead
• The Father raised Jesus from the dead
• Therefore Jesus is the Father who raised himself, Jesus, from the dead!!

@John 1.12, examine what YOU SAID and you will see that you imply what you are now claiming you did not imply… and that, for me, is why you cannot answer to question I set to you.

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John1.12 said:

Then tell me what you picture when you think about God and what he is and how he exists ?

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• “God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.“ (1 Tim 6:15-16)

• Granted by God to have life in him
• Granted to sit on the right hand of his God
• Granted to have power and authority fir a while
• Granted to be judge over mankind (‘For the Father judges no one but puts all judgement into the hands of his son”)
• Granted to be seated on the throne of his ancestor, king David

John1.12 said:

Your doing it again . Everytime you point to verse its about what he did here .

5¶Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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John1.12 said:

Your conversations will always be the same until you can drop unitarianism. You won't be able to see it ,until you do .

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Soapy said:

Unitarianism… sad to tell you that I am not a unitarianist… what I am is not what you can label me with so please STOP making such insidious claims. You are hurting yourself by delving ever deeper into a sinful state with every post you make.

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John1.12 said:

Modalist ?

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• “PRAY TO THE FATHER”,

• “IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH”

• WORSHIP of the Father

• neither on the mountain [as Samaritans do]
• nor in Jerusalem [as Jews do]

Soapy said:

No, again… I don’t belong to any category, any cage, any denomination, any sect, any cult, that you want to label me with.

The true church of God is not an earthly church… it is Spiritual. Jesus said that when we pray to God…

• “PRAY TO THE FATHER”,

we must pray

• “IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH”

and that :

• WORSHIP of the Father

is

• neither on the mountain [as Samaritans do]
• nor in Jerusalem [as Jews do]

I don’t know what ‘Modalist’ is fully but I do know that it is not what you are trying to label me with SO THAT YOU CAN TEAR ME DOWN WITH MODALIST nonsense!

Please Stop trying to label me… That is nothing more than attempted entrapment!!

What can you label the truth with?

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John1.12 said:

So who is Jesus to you if he's not God ? Is he divine or created ?

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• MAN

• SINLESS AND HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS

• the SEED OF A WOMAN

• The enlivening Spirit of God

• ANOINTED BY GOD

• Holy Spirit and Power

• ‘You are the Christ, Son of the living God’

• Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
  
• …
• Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah (‘the Christ’)

• ‘The Anointed one’

• “This word [Messiah / Christ] also refers to the expected Prince of the chosen people who was to complete God's purposes for them and to redeem them, and of whose coming the prophets of the old covenant in all time spoke. He was the Messiah, the Anointed, i.e. consecrated as the king and prophet by God's appointment.”

• “"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.…”

• “This is what YHWH God says-- the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:
• "I, YHWH, have called you [The Messiah] in righteousness; I will take hold of your [Messiah’s] hand. I will keep you [Messiah] and will make you [Messiah] to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
• to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
• "I am YHWH; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.”

• ‘The ROCK that followed the Israelites in the wilderness was Christ’

• “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-- (Romans 5:12)

• “Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.” (Romans 5:14)

• “But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man [Adam], how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! (Romans 5:15)

• Jesus, the pattern of Adam… Born of the Holy Spirit from an inert body / Created holy sinless, and Righteous - SON OF GOD.
• Adam: (red dust) of the earth, lifeless and inert … ENLIVENED by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit of God
• Jesus: ‘Seed of a Woman’ (in Mary), lifeless and inert… ENLIVENED by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit of God
• “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.” (John 6:63)

• “You are my Son… this day I have become your Father”

• “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached--how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“ (Acts 19:37-38)

1. has a rulership over something that the others do not….
2. Is both MAN and GOD… (wherein, God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!!!?)
3. Is GRANTED to sit next to ANOTHER in the unit …yet are the same ONE UNIT … where there is NOT a third member of that United three:

• “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." (Acts 7:56-57)
• “God reigns over the nations; God is seated on his holy throne. (Psalm 47:8)

• “To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.” (Rev 3:21)
• "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Mark 14:62)

• “But as I told you, you have seen [the word of God] and still you do not believe.” (John 6:36)

Soapy said:

@John 1.12, How many times should I say it to you? (seventy times seventy… I know!!)

Jesus is a:

• MAN

who was born

• SINLESS AND HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS

by

• the SEED OF A WOMAN

and

• The enlivening Spirit of God

He was

• ANOINTED BY GOD

with

• Holy Spirit and Power

Because God was pleased with him - all his life up until the anointing with the ‘oil of Gladness’ (Holy Spirit) Jesus had done nothing of a sinful nature, he was dutiful to his parents (Mary and adopted human Father, Joseph… he was not ‘Fathered’ by Joseph, as you know!) and was in a constant engagement with his spiritual Father, YHWH GOD.

Who was he? He asked this of his companions. And they answered rightly:

• ‘You are the Christ, Son of the living God’

They did not say, ‘You are God Almighty, Yahweh in the flesh’.

The very disciples who were with Jesus identified him as ‘The Christ’, ‘Son of God’. And this justified a blessing from Jesus to Simon (later renamed as ‘Peter’):

• Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
  
• …
• Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah (‘the Christ’)

It was important that the Father identified Jesus as the Messiah / Christ to those whom the Father chose to reveal it you so that the prophesies should be fulfilled that the people were to hate him (Jesus) and he (Jesus) should die for them, nevertheless! Hence Jesus told the disciples not to reveal him to anyone… and also why Jesus rebuked the demons that shouted out that he, Jesus, was the messiah!!

So what does ‘The Christ’ (‘The MESSIAH’) mean? It means:

• ‘The Anointed one’

Why was that title so appropriate to the identity of Jesus?

Answer: Look back to the prophesies that were written in the Torah.

‘Biblehub.com’ says this (Note: I do not lightly use external references but this one is a completely agreeable definition):

• “This word [Messiah / Christ] also refers to the expected Prince of the chosen people who was to complete God's purposes for them and to redeem them, and of whose coming the prophets of the old covenant in all time spoke. He was the Messiah, the Anointed, i.e. consecrated as the king and prophet by God's appointment.”

EXPLICITLY, the verse in Isaiah 42:1 sums up the entirety of what was to come in that one verse:

• “"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.…”

There it is right there… ‘I will put my Spirit on him’.
God said that about HIS SERVANT, the Messiah.

It could hardly be said that GOD spoke so about HIMSELF (ITSELF??) - even less so that God should put his spirit on him/itself when the Spirit is that same GOD whose Spirit it is…!!!

GOD, YHWH, the Father, ANOINTED the Son of Man with holy oil, which, in case you are not aware, is a solemn ceremony for the appointment of a King and/or a Priest. The oil was a special concoction known to and used by ONLY another priest for such appointments (I’m sure I don’t need to tell you these things because you already know them… yes?? Or check them out in the Old Testament!)

So how much greater is an anointment with the Holy Spirit of YHWH to that of an earthly anointment by a prophet or priest? Immensely so, is the answer, incomparable. AND we know that Jesus was not only appointed so as ‘King’ but ALSO ‘High Priest to Almighty God’. Which raises the question of how can Jesus be GOD and HIGH PRIEST TO GOD… when he IS GOD (according to your belief) when a high priest is especially holy and of a less sinful nature than general mankind!

But not only that verse but also verses 5-8:

• “This is what YHWH God says-- the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:
• "I, YHWH, have called you [The Messiah] in righteousness; I will take hold of your [Messiah’s] hand. I will keep you [Messiah] and will make you [Messiah] to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
• to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
• "I am YHWH; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.”

God reveals his name (YHWH) and declares his glory is to himself alone. This has nothing to do with Jesus… It is to do with PAGAN GODS.

God’s NAME is not ‘I AM’… ‘I am’ is the MEANING of ‘YHWH’. Saying ‘I am…’ does not make the speaker declare himself as being ALMIGHTY GOD… because the MEANING of a name is not used that way. Witness Simon Bar-Jonah, who is called ‘Peter’ (‘Cephas’), then. Tell me what this should mean:

• ‘The ROCK that followed the Israelites in the wilderness was Christ’

YHWH GOD speaks of things to come as a certainty. Here, he declares what the messiah will do when the messiah comes - how he will bring justice to the nations.

However, the Jews expected a WARRIOR messiah to free them from the Roman oppressors. This is seen in the exuberance of the Psalm Sunday celebratory events … followed by the rage against Jesus a few days later!

Let’s throttle back a bit…

God created the first man, Adam… SON OF GOD (Luke 3:38). He was dutiful, loyal, righteous, holy in God’s eyes, doing all that God taught him, directed him, commanded him, to do … until…

Adam sinned… no longer Son of God.

God was angry with Adam and with all his offspring because sin was in all of the procreation of man, of Adam… BUT God looked upon one who was so far less sinful that he saw that there could be a redemption BY MAN FOR MAN.

God prophesied that such a redemption must come from the SACRIFICE of a completely holy, Righteous, sinless MAN, to offset the sin caused by Adam:

• “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-- (Romans 5:12)

Because of the sin of Adam, ALL MANKIND was subject to eternal death …no matter how pious they may have been… ALL were subject to DEATH… and that is why a REDEEMER was required… a redeemer, messiah, Christ, that was sinless, holy, and righteous in God’s eyes should lay down his life to redeem mankind from eternal death.

• “Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.” (Romans 5:14)

But here is the saviour, the redeemer, the messiah, the Christ:

• “But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man [Adam], how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! (Romans 5:15)

@John 1.12, what can you not see as a parallel between Adam and Jesus, written here clearly:

• Jesus, the pattern of Adam… Born of the Holy Spirit from an inert body / Created holy sinless, and Righteous - SON OF GOD.
• Adam: (red dust) of the earth, lifeless and inert … ENLIVENED by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit of God
• Jesus: ‘Seed of a Woman’ (in Mary), lifeless and inert… ENLIVENED by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit of God
• “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.” (John 6:63)

This enlivening put the SPIRIT of the man into the inert body to make it a LIVING SOUL. A creation in this way is of PURE, HOLY, SINLESS NATURE and as such produces a sinless, holy, righteous SON OF GOD (could it be anything else?). Why is it surprising that Jesus, thus born, is called, ‘Son of God’?

But more than that…. Jesus REMAINED sinless, Holy, and Righteous, loyal to his creator Father and God, dutiful Son, a worthy one for God to say to him:

• “You are my Son… this day I have become your Father”

and Jesus went on to fulfil the task set to him by his Father God thus fulfilling the prophesies of God laid out in Isaiah 42:1, interceded by the ANOINTING at the river Jordan and as the apostle says:

• “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached--how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“ (Acts 19:37-38)

And such words say nothing to you as to the truth, @John 1.12?

And finally, WHAT PURPOSE is there to your Jesus God-Man ACQUIRING the ethereal earthly throne of King David, being HEIR TO GOD, if he IS GOD?

You don’t seem to know how to credibly answer that question (or any other I set you!).

Here it is again:
GOD created a physical world to be inhabited and ruled over by a man made in his image….

(continue in next post..)

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John1.12 said:

I literally said Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.

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• “Consecrate means to make holy or to dedicate to a higher purpose. ... The secr part of consecrate comes from the Latin sacer "sacred." Remember that something consecrated is dedicated to God and thus sacred.”

• “If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be set aside- what about the one whom the Father set apart (CONSECRATED) as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?”

• “If I am not doing the works of my Father then do not believe me…!”

Soapy said:

I know this is old but I thought I’d better respond to it.

Ok, I just read back over what you said and you did say that Jesus wasn’t the Holy Spirit.

Apologies did that.

But that still doesn’t take away the absurdity of making a claim that Jesus IS NOT The Father and NOT the Holy Spirit when NO ONE EVER SAID THAT JESUS WAS EITHER.

It’s still a case that you listen to trinity tripe and spout it out with no regard to any aspect of truth in it…

If you think I’m wrong, then show me someone who thinks that Jesus is The Father and that Jesus is The Holy Spirit …. And I will show you someone who is a TRINITARIAN SECT ideologist.

No one who believes the truth of ALMIGHTY GOD and HIS CHRIST will EVER say that Jesus is the Father or Jesus is the Holy Spirit such that you should issue a statement denying it.

And certainly I AM NOT ONE who expresses such ridiculous notions.

Jesus, I said, is a msn born holy, sinless, and righteous, a substitute for the first man Adam who although being also born sinless, righteous and holy, did fall to sin.

Hence Jesus is called: The Last Adam because after Jesus, no man would ever after be created this way!

Jesus was EMPOWERED by GOD when GOD put HIS HOLY SPIRIT on him at the river Jordan, called, Holy Spirit anointing: Consecrated to God:

• “Consecrate means to make holy or to dedicate to a higher purpose. ... The secr part of consecrate comes from the Latin sacer "sacred." Remember that something consecrated is dedicated to God and thus sacred.”

As was prophesied in Isaiah 42:1,



and by the Angel Gabriel to Mary the Virgin:

and by Jesus, himself:

• “If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be set aside- what about the one whom the Father set apart (CONSECRATED) as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?”

Note 1: GOD consecrated the man, Jesus… The Father, consecrated the man, Jesus…
Note 2: The ‘Sending into the world’ is AFTER Jesus was ANOINTED, baptised with the Holy Spirit. Bear this in mind when you read other verses saying Jesus was sent into the world!
Note 3: Jesus is emphatic that he DID NOT SAY HE WAS GOD but that he was ‘God’s Son’ (that God was his Father’… This does not make Jesus God any more than Jesus calling some of the Jews, ‘Sons of your Father [Satan]’ make those Jews ‘Satan’… but only that they and he was DOING THE WORKS of their respective ‘Father’!! The definition of spiritual (not literal) Son’ is thus: “He who does the works of his Father” / NOT A CREATED OR PROCREATED OFFSPRING!!

• “If I am not doing the works of my Father then do not believe me…!”

Jesus, here, declares himself as ‘Son of the Father… Son of God… because he is doing God’s work!

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John1.12 said:

Oneness Pentecostal groups claim that there is only one person in the Godhead: Jesus. They erringly state that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person, only different in manifestation.

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• THE FATHER ALONE IS GOD

• “Father, … this means eternal life that they believe in YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD…”
• “When you pray, say like this, ‘Our FATHER, who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done…”
• “My Will is to do THE WILL of the Father…”
• “For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.”

• “This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
• For this reason [YOU] could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
  
• He has blinded [YOUR] eyes and hardened [YOUR] heart[_s_], so [YOU] can neither see with [YOUR] eyes, nor understand with [YOUR] heart[_s_], nor turn--and I would heal [YOU].
  
• Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.”

• What is the purpose of and HOW could ONE OF THE THREE IN ONE GOD PERSONS become RULER over Creation alone when the other two ONE IN THREE PERSONS of God REMAIN RULER OVER THE GREATER KINGDOM OF HEAVEN…and this is deemed AS A REWARD to Jesus!

Soapy said:

My point was that no one seems to define what they mean by ‘GOD’. And by this lacking, many disingenuous arguments are brought to the table.

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