The Good thief on the cross.. Ended up in a Garden!

metis · Jun 5, 2021

Barry Johnson said:
Yes but what do the diciples do ? They don't preach to anyone but Jews until after Acts 7 .

We actually do not know that since he often spoke to crowds, such as at Capernaum.

In eretz Israel, there were "God-Fearers", who were Gentiles that did believe in the God of Abraham and who often went into the areas around the Temple and some synagogues. Some theologians at least tend to believe that these God-Fearers began to convert en masse, especially after the decision was made that they didn't have to be circumcised per Peter's ruling.

John1.12 · Jun 5, 2021

metis said:
We actually do not know that since he often spoke to crowds, such as at Capernaum.

In eretz Israel, there were "God-Fearers", who were Gentiles that did believe in the God of Abraham and who often went into the areas around the Temple and some synagogues. Some theologians at least tend to believe that these God-Fearers began to convert en masse, especially after the decision was made that they didn't have to be circumcised per Peter's ruling.

Which bible verse ?

metis · Jun 5, 2021

Barry Johnson said:
Which bible verse ?

Here's a Wiki article on "God-Fearers": God-fearer - Wikipedia

My point is that Jesus talked to audiences, and we also know that he began to include Gentiles as being worthy of the Gospel, thus one simply cannot logically assume that all his followers prior to his crucifixion were only Jews.

On top of that, remember his words to the Roman centurion that he praised for his faith, and also the woman at the well. However, there's no doubt according to the scriptures, that it would be mainly the Jews whom would have the duty to "be a light unto the nations" as Torah states.

Bree · Jun 16, 2021

Dogknox20 said:
.
Hello Bree I point out Satan fell to the earth!
Luke 10:18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Earth is then destroyed with fire!

Bree.. Those people immersed into Christ are caught up with the dead and taken away from the destroyed earth. Satan and all souls not immersed into Jesus will stay forever on earth!
NOTE: The 144000 are literally only Jewish male virgins! QUESTION: Are the JW's elders married?! Did they have children? The 144,000 then can't be any JW elder they must have lied to say different!
4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Bree Clearly verse #5 (above) points to the lies twists of the JW's.. Is the WTS blameless????
The WTS falsely predicted the following:
1889: “The ‘battle of the great day of God almighty’ (Rev. 16:14) which will end in AD 1914 . . . ” (Studies, Vol. 2, 1908 edition, 101).

1891: “With the end of AD 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown from prophecy” (Studies, Vol. 3, 153).

1894: “The end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble” (WT Reprints, 1-1-1894, 1605 and 1677).

1916: “The six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th day, the 1000 years of Christ’s reign began in 1873” (Studies, Vol. 2, p. 2 of foreword).

1918: “Therefore, we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 89).

1923: “1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge” (WT, 4-1-1923, 106).

1925: “The year of 1925 is here. . . . Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year” (WT, 1-1-1925, 3).

1939: “The disaster of Armageddon is just ahead” (Salvation, 361).

1941: “Armageddon is surely near . . . soon . . . within a few years” (Children, 10).

1946: “Armageddon . . . should come sometime before 1972” (They Have Found a Faith, 44).

1968: “The end of the six thousand years of man’s history in the fall of 1975 is not tentative, but is accepted as a certain date” (WT, 1-1-1968, 271).
Bree I remember this prediction (above) in 1968 I was a teenager the JWs prediction was broadcast over the television!

Besides false prophecies, the WTS has misled its members through countless changes in doctrine and practice:

The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT, 7-1879, 7-8). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT, 6-1-1952, 338). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT 8-1-1965, 479). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT 6-1-1988, 31).

“There could be nothing against our consciences in going into the army” (WT, 4-15-1903, 120). Due to conscience, Jehovah’s Witnesses must refuse military service (WT, 2-1-1951, 73).
“We may as well join in with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event [Christmas] . . . ” (WT Reprints, 12-1-1904, 3468). “Christmas and its music are not from Jehovah . . . What is their source? . . . Satan the devil” (WT, 12-15-1983, 7).

“Everyone in America should take pleasure in displaying the American flag” (WT Reprints, 5-15-1917, 6068). The flag is “an idolatrous symbol” (Awake!, 9-8-71, 14).

all that needs to be said is what the bible says about the earth.

Consider. The bible says that the earth has already been destoyed. In the days of Noah the 'earth' was destroyed by the deluge. But does that mean the phyisical earth was destroyed? Obviously not because its still here.

2Peter3: 5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God;+ 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water.+ 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.+

The earth that we stand on will never be destroyed. God has declared that it will remain forever!
Psalm 104: 5 He has established the earth on its foundations;+
It will not be moved from its place* forever and ever.+

Forever and Ever the earth will remain in tact. So the idea that this future destruction means the earth will be destroyed cannot be correct. Regardless of what you think about the watchtower, it does not affect the fact that the scriptures tell us clearly that the 'earth' that was destroyed was the 'earthly society of people' in the days of Noah.
And it also does not change the fact that the bible says the earth will remain 'forever and ever'

Bree · Jun 16, 2021

metis said:
It was a belief amongst a great many Jews, probably a majority of them, at least a century before Jesus' time. "Job" is the oldest biblical book that we know of in terms of its writing, and at the end of Job there's at least the hint of something after death.

Also, Elijah and Enoch were assumed into heaven going there on a "flaming chariot".

most of the worlds ancient religions believed in life after death...going to heaven etc

So if there were Jews in those days belieing such things, its because they had adopted pagan teachings. The bible does not state anything about heaven.
The book of Job shows that his belief was that he would rest and later be restored to life.

Job 14:13
O that in the Grave* you would conceal me,+
That you would hide me until your anger passes by,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!+
14 If a man dies, can he live again?+
I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes.+
15 You will call, and I will answer you.+
You will long* for the work of your hands.

metis · Jun 16, 2021

Bree said:
most of the worlds ancient religions believed in life after death...going to heaven etc

So if there were Jews in those days belieing such things, its because they had adopted pagan teachings. The bible does not state anything about heaven.
The book of Job shows that his belief was that he would rest and later be restored to life.

Job 14:13
O that in the Grave* you would conceal me,+
That you would hide me until your anger passes by,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!+
14 If a man dies, can he live again?+
I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes.+
15 You will call, and I will answer you.+
You will long* for the work of your hands.

The concept of heaven within the Jewish communities had long been around before Jesus' time, such as theologies dealing with the concept of "sheol" and what would happen later, as sheol was not a final judgement.

Thus, even though heaven is not explicitly stated within the Tanakh, there was the concept that there was some kind of judgement yet to come, and Job is one source that captures that.

Dogknox20 · Jun 16, 2021

Bree said:
all that needs to be said is what the bible says about the earth.

Consider. The bible says that the earth has already been destoyed. In the days of Noah the 'earth' was destroyed by the deluge. But does that mean the phyisical earth was destroyed? Obviously not because its still here.

2Peter3: 5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God;+ 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water.+ 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.+

The earth that we stand on will never be destroyed. God has declared that it will remain forever!
Psalm 104: 5 He has established the earth on its foundations;+
It will not be moved from its place* forever and ever.+

Forever and Ever the earth will remain in tact. So the idea that this future destruction means the earth will be destroyed cannot be correct. Regardless of what you think about the watchtower, it does not affect the fact that the scriptures tell us clearly that the 'earth' that was destroyed was the 'earthly society of people' in the days of Noah.
And it also does not change the fact that the bible says the earth will remain 'forever and ever'

.
Hello Bree... It's been a while I hope all is well...
2 Peter 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.
Bree Fire destroys the earth to a burnt cinder!

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

To destroy elements you need very very high temperatures!

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
Rev 6:13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.

Bree Verse 13 (above) There will be earthquakes!
If the moon is hit it will turn red..... The earth will wobble looking up at the stars it will seem as if they are moving back and forth.. (Being rolled up)
There will be large earth quakes and the sea will roar as the tides will go whacky!
If a chunk of the moon heads to the earth it will give people time to hide (verse 15 above) it will not be instant I think three days!
Rev 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
As Jesus went up in assentation he will return the same way... I feel he will come down from the sky for all the people will see him as they look towards the destroyed moon!
Rev 8:12 The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.
Bree the Moon is struck!

Psalm 72:7 In his days may the righteous flourish and prosperity abound till the moon is no more.
Isaiah 13:9
See, the day of the Lord is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

Isaiah 60:20 Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the Lord will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.

Joel 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

Luke 21:25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.

Acts 2:20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
Bree the Moon will turn red if is struck by a asteroid! The dust will change the brightness of the moon!

Bree · Jun 17, 2021

Dogknox20 said:
.
Hello Bree... It's been a while I hope all is well...
2 Peter 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.
Bree Fire destroys the earth to a burnt cinder!

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

To destroy elements you need very very high temperatures!

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
Rev 6:13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.

Bree Verse 13 (above) There will be earthquakes!
If the moon is hit it will turn red..... The earth will wobble looking up at the stars it will seem as if they are moving back and forth.. (Being rolled up)
There will be large earth quakes and the sea will roar as the tides will go whacky!
If a chunk of the moon heads to the earth it will give people time to hide (verse 15 above) it will not be instant I think three days!
Rev 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
As Jesus went up in assentation he will return the same way... I feel he will come down from the sky for all the people will see him as they look towards the destroyed moon!
Rev 8:12 The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.
Bree the Moon is struck!

Psalm 72:7 In his days may the righteous flourish and prosperity abound till the moon is no more.
Isaiah 13:9
See, the day of the Lord is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

Isaiah 60:20 Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the Lord will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.

Joel 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

Luke 21:25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.

Acts 2:20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
Bree the Moon will turn red if is struck by a asteroid! The dust will change the brightness of the moon!

Hi Dognox,
Yes i' am well thanks

keeping Covid safe!

for all the verses in Revelation that speak of destruction, there are just as many that speak of the earth as being saved and protected and lasting forever. So how do you account for the seeming contradictions?

Examples

Eccl 1:4
A generation is going, and a generation is coming,
But the earth remains* forever.+

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what Jehovah says,The Creator of the heavens,+ the true God,
The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,+
Who did not create it simply for nothing,* but formed it to be inhabited:+
“I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.

Psalm 37:29
The righteous will possess the earth,+
And they will live forever on it

Psalm 78:69
He made his sanctuary as enduring as the heavens,*+
Like the earth that he has established forever

Psalm 104:5
He has established the earth on its foundations;+
It will not be moved from its place* forever and ever.

Bree · Jun 17, 2021

metis said:
The concept of heaven within the Jewish communities had long been around before Jesus' time, such as theologies dealing with the concept of "sheol" and what would happen later, as sheol was not a final judgement.

Thus, even though heaven is not explicitly stated within the Tanakh, there was the concept that there was some kind of judgement yet to come, and Job is one source that captures that.

Yes, there was a concept... the writers of the scriptures viewed the concept as a 'physical' life after death.

And when Jesus came, his teaching was that there would be a physical restoration in the form of a 'resurrection' which was also taught by the Pharisees of his day.

Dogknox20 · Jun 17, 2021

Bree said:
Hi Dognox,
Yes i' am well thanks keeping Covid safe!

for all the verses in Revelation that speak of destruction, there are just as many that speak of the earth as being saved and protected and lasting forever. So how do you account for the seeming contradictions?

Examples

Eccl 1:4
A generation is going, and a generation is coming,
But the earth remains* forever.+

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what Jehovah says,The Creator of the heavens,+ the true God,
The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,+
Who did not create it simply for nothing,* but formed it to be inhabited:+
“I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.

Psalm 37:29
The righteous will possess the earth,+
And they will live forever on it

Psalm 78:69
He made his sanctuary as enduring as the heavens,*+
Like the earth that he has established forever

Psalm 104:5
He has established the earth on its foundations;+
It will not be moved from its place* forever and ever.

Hello Bree... I reply.... The earth remains forever as long as there are people living on it! From generation to generation! The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

10 But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief, in which the heavens shall pass away with great violence, and the elements shall be melted with heat, and the earth and the works which are in it, shall be burnt up.

10 But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that Day the heavens will disappear with a shrill noise, the heavenly bodies will burn up and be destroyed, and the earth with everything in it will vanish.

8-10 But you should never lose sight of this fact, dear friends, that time is not the same with the Lord as it is with us—to him a day may be a thousand years, and a thousand years only a day. It is not that he is dilatory about keeping his own promise as some men seem to think; the fact is that he is very patient towards you. He has no wish that any man should be destroyed. He wishes that all men should come to repent. Yet it remains true that the day of the Lord will come as suddenly and unexpectedly as a thief. In that day the heavens will disappear in a terrific tearing blast, the very elements will disintegrate in heat and the earth and all that is in it will be burnt up to nothing.

10 The day of the Lord is surely coming, as unexpectedly as a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the heavenly bodies will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be burned up.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat. The earth also and the works that are in it will be burned up.
etc

Philippians 3:18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.
Bree... Their destiny is destruction,
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 14:11 “The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

12 And I watched when the Lamb opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair. The entire moon became like blood. 13 The stars of the sky fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when it is shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky was removed like a scroll being rolled up. Every mountain and island was moved from its place.

15 The kings of the earth, the nobles, the military leaders, the rich, the powerful, and everyone—slave or free—hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.

Bree · Jun 18, 2021

Dogknox20 said:
Hello Bree... I reply.... The earth remains forever as long as there are people living on it! From generation to generation! The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare
.

well then you would have to agree that the earth can never be destroyed because the scriptures say that people will be living on the earth 'forever'

Psalm 37:29
The righteous will possess the earth,+
And they will live forever on it

Dogknox20 · Jun 18, 2021

Bree said:
well then you would have to agree that the earth can never be destroyed because the scriptures say that people will be living on the earth 'forever'

Psalm 37:29
The righteous will possess the earth,+
And they will live forever on it

.
Bree once again hello...
Psalm 72:5 May they fear You as long as the sun endures, and the moon, throughout all generations.
&
Bree as long as the MOON endures

Psalm 72:7 In his days may the righteous flourish, and abundance of peace until the moon is no more.

If the moon is struck it will turn red... The earth will wobble the stars will then look as if they are rolling up as a scroll is rolled up. The seas will roar because of the great tides!
If a chunk of the moon hits the earth the earth will be utterly destroyed by intense fire! If a chunk of moon is heading towards earth it will give men time to hide in caves, it will not hit the earth instantly.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

The Good thief on the cross.. Ended up in a Garden!

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

John1.12

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metis

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Bree

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metis

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Dogknox20

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