Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

Muffled said:

I believe that is false. Jesus still had a mission to perform in the resurrection.

I believe He returns to complete his role of Messiah delivering Israel from her enemies and giving people one last chance to accept Him as Lord and Savior before the world ends.

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thanks

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

rrobs said:

The 50 cent answer:

Acts 1:11,

“Men of Galilee,” - - they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into - heaven, - will come back in the same way - you have seen Him go into - heaven.”

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Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How did Jesus go up? The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up.

The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of a human being. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

rrobs said:

Just because someone finishes their work doesn't mean they can't go back to the shop.

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You might have a point if there was any reason to believe that Jesus was going back to the shop to do more work, but there is nothing in the NT where Jesus says that he has more work to do HIMSELF and many verses that say in no uncertain terms that Hos work was finished in this world and He would never come back to this world again.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Muffled said:

I believe that is false. Jesus still had a mission to perform in the resurrection.

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So you believe what Jesus said in the Bible is false, great.
Jesus did not perform any resurrection. I believe that was just a fictional story that men wrote.

Muffled said:

I believe He returns to complete his role of Messiah delivering Israel from her enemies and giving people one last chance to accept Him as Lord and Savior before the world ends.

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That is not possible because Baha'u'llah already fulfilled all the Bible prophecies for the return of Christ and the Messiah. The world is not going to end, but the former age ended with the coming of Baha'u'llah, and this is the beginning of a new age.

Muffled said:

I believe this is it: John 5: 7 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.

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Jesus was working then, but later His work was finished.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Trailblazer said:

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How did Jesus go up? The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up.

The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

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Technically you are right about it saying nothing about the "body" of Jesus. On the other hand I've not seen any version that says anything about the "spirit" of Jesus. I checked a several versions including Spanish and more notably Greek. None of them say anything about a spirit. The say in simple term, "this same Jesus..." or someting close to that. Again no mention of his body or spirit. Is there an actual version that mentions the "spirit" of Jesus ascending? I'm open to new data.

Now if I told you, "Bill went to the store," would you think it was only his spirit that went? We all know what it means to say, "Bill went to the store" as clearly as we understand what "...this same Jesus..." means. Bill went to the store and Jesus went up into the cloud. What possible purpose could there be in reading any more into this simple statement than is really there? What would stop me from saying it was the big toe of Jesus that went into the cloud? Just read the simplicity of what's written and let it go at that.

Take care

Muffled said:

I believe He works fine in me.

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Maybe so, but that is not what I was referring to by work.

rrobs said:

Technically you are right about it saying nothing about the "body" of Jesus. On the other hand I've not seen any version that says anything about the "spirit" of Jesus. I checked a several versions including Spanish and more notably Greek. None of them say anything about a spirit. The say in simple term, "this same Jesus..." or someting close to that. Again no mention of his body or spirit. Is there an actual version that mentions the "spirit" of Jesus ascending? I'm open to new data.

Now if I told you, "Bill went to the store," would you think it was only his spirit that went? We all know what it means to say, "Bill went to the store" as clearly as we understand what "...this same Jesus..." means. Bill went to the store and Jesus went up into the cloud. What possible purpose could there be in reading any more into this simple statement than is really there? What would stop me from saying it was the big toe of Jesus that went into the cloud? Just read the simplicity of what's written and let it go at that.

Take care

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I don't trust what it says in the Gospels word-by-word. Why anyway would the body go up to heaven? What is up there?

rrobs said:

Technically you are right about it saying nothing about the "body" of Jesus. On the other hand I've not seen any version that says anything about the "spirit" of Jesus. I checked a several versions including Spanish and more notably Greek. None of them say anything about a spirit. The say in simple term, "this same Jesus..." or someting close to that. Again no mention of his body or spirit. Is there an actual version that mentions the "spirit" of Jesus ascending? I'm open to new data.

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I do not think it is wise to base your beliefs upon one verse from Acts that was not even the words of Jesus. In order to determine HOW Christ would return you have to look at other verses, verses that were written shortly before the departure of Jesus. For example:

John 14

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

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Jesus said He would pray so the Father would give you another Comforter, and then Jesus said that He would come to you. But then Jesus said that the world would see "Him" no more which indicates that Jesus would not be returning in the same physical body He had when He walked the earth 2000 years ago. Then Jesus said that the Father would send the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost in His name.

So the hundred-dollar question is who is the Comforter?

I believe that Jesus was a Comforter as indicated in verses 16 and 18, and I believe he was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit. I know that Christians believe that the Comforter is the Holy Spiirt, but that makes no sense because verse 26 says that the Comforter will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever Jesus said unto you. Only a man can do that, not a spirit, and if Jesus was a Comforter it makes sense that "another Comforter" would be another man who brought the Holy Spirit and reminded people of what Jesus had said and taught things just as Jesus had taught things.

rrobs said:

Now if I told you, "Bill went to the store," would you think it was only his spirit that went? We all know what it means to say, "Bill went to the store" as clearly as we understand what "...this same Jesus..." means. Bill went to the store and Jesus went up into the cloud. What possible purpose could there be in reading any more into this simple statement than is really there? What would stop me from saying it was the big toe of Jesus that went into the cloud? Just read the simplicity of what's written and let it go at that.

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The store is not a cloud in they sky. If someone said that Bill went up into a cloud in the sky would you believe that? Why then would you believe that the physical body of Jesus ascended up into a cloud in the sky defying gravity?

In life an intelligent man theist says a reaction is begun. A reaction ends.
As creation existed.

A man is a human is not a reaction.

So if you remind a human man theist you are human first and a man human second advice already you are told yourself you are expressing a displaced idea.

If you say I give my human self as a man a name title. Three times displaced. As you are just a natural being.

No man is God means in title no man was Jesus either just a worded explanation by men.

If you say the sacrificed life attack summarised by men in science will be given the title Jesus then it would be a summation of changes to various natural masses.

Natural mass is not any human man.

What you ignore in man egotism when your claim is I know what reaction occurred first to own evolution to finally own my human life.

Yet it is just human thoughts thought by humans in pretend. So it is a pretence and fake as human egotism.

Egotism the want to be extra special as compared to any other human was the fault of the human theist in science.

To pretend natural family parents should be elite and better and in control. When once they were just Family equals.

Was by our child defined inference wise when their claim was protection of our children.

So harmed human in elite society by King Queen control said as the Lord's over lord false self pretence I was harmed in life by the elite. Whereas their lord was rich. Said my poor lord life.

As they were rich but not as rich as a king yet in ego wanted to be as powerful.

Yet they were rich. As compared to everyday human life harmed.

The story was told by the Lord elitist. Not by a non lord everyday human.

As a lord.

Human equal life were family and equal.

So the Lord's said we will govern family and take the elite Queen King riches from them. So they could be richer in government. Yet the money was not really for the people.

And lied as the elite always had lied. Claiming I will abuse society the same as King Queen. As they did.

They never governed us as life equals.

So the over lord system lied about themselves.

Why the term Jesus said a hypocrite.

As science should not have existed as a human practice.

What lying is. Really lies.

The document science natural advice was by equal aware human. Said the state natural is equal for everyone

The con used by science in elite is all lies. Egotism in group human self purpose.

Jesus therefore was not a lord harmed. Lord meant elitist in life. The Lord's...the governing body discussed theirselves as a victim.

As never did they truly care for the equal abused human.

History is a proven liar as the situation is still lived today. The over lording governing wanting to be rich abusing the equal human by science.

Truthseeker9 said:

I don't trust what it says in the Gospels word-by-word. Why anyway would the body go up to heaven? What is up there?

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It would help to understand what the word "heaven" meant to the ancient Near Eastern person. We in the modern world think of it as some place where God supposedly lives and where good dead people go. That is a far cry from how the Jews of that time understood it.

Genesis says the birds are in heaven. That alone should alert any serious Bible student that heaven is not what the commonly accepted meaning (traditional, not scriptural) says.

Take care

Trailblazer said:

I do not think it is wise to base your beliefs upon one verse from Acts that was not even the words of Jesus. In order to determine HOW Christ would return you have to look at other verses, verses that were written shortly before the departure of Jesus.

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Very true, it is never a good idea to base an entire doctrine on one verse. That is why I quoted several other verses in post #1199.

As to "how" he will come, we need look no further than Acts 1:11 where it clearly says Jesus will come "in like manner" as he went up. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7 say the same thing.

John 14

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Click to expand...

Jesus said He would pray so the Father would give you another Comforter, and then Jesus said that He would come to you. But then Jesus said that the world would see "Him" no more which indicates that Jesus would not be returning in the same physical body He had when He walked the earth 2000 years ago. Then Jesus said that the Father would send the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost in His name.

So the hundred-dollar question is who is the Comforter?

I believe that Jesus was a Comforter as indicated in verses 16 and 18, and I believe he was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit. I know that Christians believe that the Comforter is the Holy Spiirt, but that makes no sense because verse 26 says that the Comforter will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever Jesus said unto you. Only a man can do that, not a spirit, and if Jesus was a Comforter it makes sense that "another Comforter" would be another man who brought the Holy Spirit and reminded people of what Jesus had said and taught things just as Jesus had taught things.

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This section of scripture is a totally different context than Jesus ascending into the cloud. In any case, 1 John has the answer.

John 14:26,


But, as you said, Jesus is also called a comforter in 1 John 2:1. Some versions translate the Greek word as "advocate" but it is the same Greek word (parakletos) used in John chapter 14.

The store is not a cloud in they sky. If someone said that Bill went up into a cloud in the sky would you believe that? Why then would you believe that the physical body of Jesus ascended up into a cloud in the sky defying gravity?

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I was using an analogy which is a figure of speech and therefore not meant to be taken literally. Figures of speech are precise tools of grammar that help emphasize something.

I was just trying to say that words have simple meanings that we generally agree on (hence you and I can communicate via words). For some reason tough, when it comes to the scriptures common sense tends to fly out the window.

Trailblazer said:

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How did Jesus go up? The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up.

The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of a human being. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

You might have a point if there was any reason to believe that Jesus was going back to the shop to do more work, but there is nothing in the NT where Jesus says that he has more work to do HIMSELF and many verses that say in no uncertain terms that Hos work was finished in this world and He would never come back to this world again.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

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it only refers to the Passover
He is high priest and victim Heb 8 Jn 1:29

rrobs said:

I was using an analogy which is a figure of speech and therefore not meant to be taken literally. Figures of speech are precise tools of grammar that help emphasize something.

I was just trying to say that words have simple meanings that we generally agree on (hence you and I can communicate via words). For some reason though, when it comes to the scriptures common sense tends to fly out the window.

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Imo, common sense has flies out the window when people believe that the body of Jesus that walked the earth 2000 years ago is going to come down out of the sky in the clouds, and that dead people will rise from their graves. I believe that has a figurative meaning, not a literal meaning. I believe it means that when Christ returns there will be a lot of clamor and those people who were spiritually dead and had forgotten Christ will be the first to recognize Him (rise first).

1 Thessalonians 4:16
King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Trailblazer said:

Imo, common sense has flies out the window when people believe that the body of Jesus that walked the earth 2000 years ago is going to come down out of the sky in the clouds, and that dead people will rise from their graves. I believe that has a figurative meaning, not a literal meaning. I believe it means that when Christ returns there will be a lot of clamor and those people who were spiritually dead and had forgotten Christ will be the first to recognize Him (rise first).

1 Thessalonians 4:16
King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

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What is your basis for saying that Christ's return is figurative and not literal?

As I said before, when something can't be taken literally it must be a figure of speech. Figures of speech are precise tools used to emphasize. They are categorized and have precise meanings. The moment we start saying something is figurative we should know exactly which figure of speech is being employed. There are about 200+ figures of speech.

What figure of speech do you see being used in 1 Thessalonians 4:16? If one person simply believes something is a figure of speech, then another person can throw in their opinion. The problem with that is that the scriptures are not based on opinion. They are based on what God says and His speech is incredibly precise. It says each word has been purified 7 times. It's up to the reader to determine what God was saying instead of interjecting their own ideas.

God could have said, as you said, that the return means there is a lot of clamor and that the spiritually dead person will be the first to recognize Jesus. But He didn't say that, so it's best just to take it for what it says.

Thanks!

rrobs said:

What is your basis for saying that Christ's return is figurative and not literal?

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Bodies do not literally come down out of the sky in the clouds and land on earth so we know it must be figurative.

rrobs said:

As I said before, when something can't be taken literally it must be a figure of speech. Figures of speech are precise tools used to emphasize. They are categorized and have precise meanings. The moment we start saying something is figurative we should know exactly which figure of speech is being employed. There are about 200+ figures of speech.

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I was saying I think the verse is intended to be figurative, not literal. I do not know about figures of speech. Maybe you can elaborate.

rrobs said:

What figure of speech do you see being used in 1 Thessalonians 4:16? If one person simply believes something is a figure of speech, then another person can throw in their opinion. The problem with that is that the scriptures are not based on opinion. They are based on what God says and His speech is incredibly precise. It says each word has been purified 7 times. It's up to the reader to determine what God was saying instead of interjecting their own ideas.

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1 Thessalonians 4:16
King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I do not think it is possible to know what God was saying unless you have some clues and I don't think these verses were ever intended to be understood until we had the clues. I mean without knowing what actually happened when Christ returned we cannot understand what the verse means.

I believe that means that the spirit of Christ will return from the heaven of the will of God and his soul will unite with his body and he will be born on earth as a human being. I believe that is exactly what happened when Jesus appeared the first time. The shout means there will be a lot of clamor and voices will be raised and of those who recognize Christ the ones who had forgotten Christ will be the first to recognize Christ (rise first).

Of course it is true that anyone could have a different opinion as to what that verse means and therein lies the test that God has put before us, to figure out what the verse means and who it applies to.

rrobs said:

God could have said, as you said, that the return means there is a lot of clamor and that the spiritually dead person will be the first to recognize Jesus. But He didn't say that, so it's best just to take it for what it says.

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With all due respect, if you interpret that verse and other verses that refer to the return of Christ literally you will never know what they really mean, and that is one reason Christians failed to recognize Christ when He returned and why they still do not recognize Him. Moreover if you interpret everything in the Bible literally, what about the parables of Jesus? If those are figurative who wouldn't other verses be figurative?

Baha’i has a lot in common with gnostic Freemasons
Religious indifferentism
You cannot join Islam and Christian
At fez the Muslims killed thousands of Christians and dipped their hats in the blood
History of the red fez
And Christ and his church new covenant religion are exclusive
There are no new covenants or mediators
Thanks for sharing your faith