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Two Kinds of Religion

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
So you're in favor of human sacrifice or it's cool with you? Hmm.
No nor am I in favor of torturing someone to death. Are you in favor of torturing someone to death. Is that truly any better than a sacrifice? They are both bad. Torturing someone to death does not have the moral higher ground than sacrifice.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
- Jainarayan is saying that there are many Gods because it is his belief, why are you getting knotted about that? How is that an affront to Bahai belief.
I was never knotted out about anyone's belief in "many Gods." A better question is why is he getting knotted out about my belief in the one God I believe in.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
You still have no evidence to the contrary, showing that the Druids didn't practice human sacrifice. And we know the Celts did practice it. So why you dismiss it as "Roman propaganda" is beyond me.

I am not saying the Celts did not have practices that we would not agree with in todays society. And yes Rome did generate its propaganda to gain support for its conquests. You are not that naïve to believe they didnt are you?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes. Are you saying the Vedas can be superseded? The Srimad Bhagavatam can be rewritten, reinterpreted? Rituals can be set aside? That’s some big hairy coconuts. You’re denying that these religions’ teachings were established by their gods. But I’m forgetting they’re false gods. :rolleyes:
When I said superseded I meant superseded by a newer revelation from God. I believe that all revelations from God are superseded by the revelations that come next in succession.

You said that these religions’ teachings were established by their gods. How were they established? Do you even know or do you just believe? Who wrote these scriptures?

Vyasa
According to tradition, Vyasa is the compiler of the Vedas, who arranged the four kinds of mantras into four Samhitas (Collections).

Vedas - Wikipedia

You can believe it but understand you’re going to get some vehement blowback from those practitioners. It’s like someone, let’s say a friendly visit by a school administrator, coming to your house and telling you all the things you do wrong in keeping house and raising your children. You would kind of bristle at that wouldn’t you?
I am not coming to anyone's door telling them they are doing something wrong. I just have a certain belief.
You are the one telling me I am doing something wrong just for having a belief. Jews, Christians and Muslims also have a different belief that they believe superseded Hinduism, why not get after them for their beliefs?
It most certainly is co-opting Hindu belief by changing it to suit someone’s idea or “vision”. You claimed that non-Abrahamics claim your God is a false God. Well, by taking Krishna as just a messenger of your “one true God”, you’ve turned Krishna into a false God. He’s not God anymore, but a messenger is what you’re saying. That’s offensive, an affront.
So you believe that Krishna is a God? This is no different than Christians who believe that Jesus is God. You are free to believe whatever you want to but I will never believe that any man became God. That is just as offensive to my beliefs as what you believe is offensive to your beliefs and I am sorry of you cannot understand why.

Moreover, if Krishna is God how can Jesus also be God? Oh, I almost forgot, there is more than one god. Try telling a Christian that Krishna is God and see how far you get.
Wrong. Right there that says you have absolutely no idea what Hinduism is, and are speaking from a monolithic Abrahamic position. Hinduism isn’t one religion. And there are core beliefs that make one a Hindu or not. The Vedas, for one. They are apauruṣeya, “not of man”. So tell us what men changed it, and how? Now you’re really grasping at straws. I strongly recommend studying this site Himalayan Academy
BASICS OF HINDUISM
Religions come from God. You tell me how Hinduism came from God.
Sorry, wrong. The problem is that “one true God” belief. There is no need for “one true God”.
I could say the same thing. there is no need for more than one God. The there is only one God was straightened out by Abraham so don't blame the Baha'is for that belief, go after the Jews.
And I would again point out that Bible verses, from your God himself, acknowledges the existence of other gods. He says “strange gods”, “foreign gods”, “no other gods before me”. He himself acknowledges other gods. He just wants to be top dog.
Where? Where, except possibly in Paul’s writings, are the words “false gods”? Implied isn’t good enough in a belief system that has no room for interpretation.
Sorry but no. The Bible does not acknowledge the existence of more than one God so you cannot use the Bible to prove that, you will have to stay with your own scriptures.

"Rather than throw out or ignore those simple, straightforward verses, we should throw out the explanations that contradict them. In theological terms, this is the correct exegetical approach. The Bible proclaims plainly and clearly that there is one and only one God. When the Bible says that God is one, the word one does not refer to a “God Family,” but to one God. Let’s begin by looking at passages in the Old Testament.

Old Testament verses

Deuteronomy 4:35: “You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39: “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

Deuteronomy 6:4-5: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.”

Deuteronomy 32:39: “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.”

1 Samuel 2:1-2: “There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.”

2 Samuel 7:22: “How great you are, O Sovereign Lord! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

2 Samuel 22:32: “For who is God besides the Lord? And who is the Rock except our God?”

1 Kings 8:60: “So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other.”

2 Kings 19:15-19: “Hezekiah prayed to the Lord: ‘O Lord, God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth. Give ear, O Lord, and hear; open your eyes, O Lord, and see; listen to the words Sennacherib has sent to insult the living God. It is true, O Lord, that the Assyrian kings have laid waste these nations and their lands. They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by men’s hands. Now, O Lord our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all kingdoms on earth may know that you alone, O Lord, are God.’…”

Psalm 18:30-31: “As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the Lord is flawless…. For who is God besides the Lord? And who is the Rock except our God?”

Psalm 83:18: “Let them know that you, whose name is the Lord — that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”

Isaiah 43:10, 13: “‘You are my witnesses,’ declares the Lord, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior…. Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act,
who can reverse it?’“

Isaiah 44:6-8: “This is what the Lord says — Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come — yes, let him foretell what will come. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

Isaiah 45:5-6: “I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other.”

Isaiah 45:18: “This is what the Lord says — he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited — he says: ‘I am the Lord, and there is no other.’”

Isaiah 45:21-22: “Declare what is to be, present it — let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.”

Isaiah 46:9: “Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.”

As you can see, there is no question about the biblical fact that there is one and only one God, not two or more “Gods.” God speaks in the singular, as “I,” saying that he is the only God, and there is no other being that is even like him. That’s why God commands us, “You shall have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:3).

The idea of more than one being in a family of gods is condemned throughout the Scriptures. That was precisely the concept that the polytheistic nations surrounding Israel taught. polytheistic is a word that refers to a belief in more than one god (poly = many; theos = god). The Bible teaches that there is only one God, a belief called monotheism, from mono (one) and theos (God).

A family is made up of more than one being. The pagan hierarchies of gods were made up of more than one “god being,” and at the top of the hierarchy were usually a father god, a mother god and one or more son and daughter gods. The Bible condemns the concept of a family of gods."

How Many Gods Does God Say There Are? | GCI Archive
So what is the one true God of all the religions? Vishnu, Shiva, Ahura Mazda, the Great Spirit of Native Americans? Which? If I were a gambler I’d wager the answer is going to be the God of Abraham.
The one true God is not the God of anyone, it is the God of everyone. No religion owns God.
 
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Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
When I said superseded I meant superseded by a newer revelation from God. I believe that all revelations from God are superseded by the revelations that come next in succession.
By that logic, the "revelations" of Shrii Shrii Anandamurti (1921-1990) would supersede those of Bahaullah. His universal vision is however quite distinct from the one Bahaullah made.
Jesus, Muhammed and even Bahaullah are not part of the series of "revelators" where Krishna is part of it.

But as you said, the Bahai vision is just a belief and the belief of one person need not be the vision of another.
I never feel insulted by religious revelations that are not part of my own world vision, I just don't take them very seriously as they don't match up in different ways.

The Abrahamics each seem to have a problem with superiority complex, they all somehow imagine they are 'at the top of the monkey hill' (as a Dutch expression goes).
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
By that logic, the "revelations" of Shrii Shrii Anandamurti (1921-1990) would supersede those of Bahaullah. His universal vision is however quite distinct from the one Bahaullah made.
They would if they were actually revelations from God, but I do not believe they are. Anyone can claim to have a revelation.
But as you said, the Bahai vision is just a belief and the belief of one person need not be the vision of another.
I never feel insulted by religious revelations that are not part of my own world vision, I just don't take them very seriously as they don't match up in different ways.
That's good that you do not feel insulted because we all have our own beliefs, so unless someone is actually insulting your beliefs I don't know why you would feel insulted, unless you lacked personal boundaries.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
They would if they were actually revelations from God, but I do not believe they are. Anyone can claim to have a revelation.
Yes, anyone can claim revelations. Shrii Shrii Anandamurti did not have to claim revelations. They don't do revelations outside the Abrahamic paradigma.

So you believe that Krishna is a God? This is no different than Christians who believe that Jesus is God. You are free to believe whatever you want to but I will never believe that any man became God. That is just as offensive to my beliefs as what you believe is offensive to your beliefs and I am sorry of you cannot understand why.

Moreover, if Krishna is God how can Jesus also be God? Oh, I almost forgot, there is more than one god. Try telling a Christian that Krishna is God and see how far you get.
Shrii Krishna and Shrii Shiva are not God in the sense that they are Brahma.
God cannot incarnate into a human body of course because He cannot be in one single body and inside the whole of creation at the same time, it is an illogical idea. Therefore Anandamurti rejects the idea of avatarism, just like you seem to do.

In the philosophy of Shrii Shrii Anandamurti however God may sometimes appear not as Brahma, but as Taraka Brahma in order to teach humanity how to follow their human dharma (Manava Dharma).

Taraka Brahma is a mysterious coming because He is both within and without Saguna Brahma (the expressed part of God). So He is also connected to Nirguna Brahma (the unexpressed part of God). He comes so to say from in between Nirguna Brahma and Saguna Brahma i.e. from the tangent plane between those two aspects of God. This also means that He is the bridge between Saguna Brahma and Nirguna Brahma for all those spiritualists who want to attain full liberation into Nirguna Brahma (Moksha). You cannot find liberation into Nirguna Brahma without the help of Taraka Brahma.

So Taraka Brahma is not Brahma (the equivalent of Allah if you wish) and He is also not many but He has come three times in human history only.

Now of course most Hindus do not have this concept of Taraka Brahma but may have even other "gods" than those three. But you cannot take the traditions of India as one religion, you will have to address each tradition one at a time just like you cannot treat the Abrahamics as one single tradition.

So if you object to calling Taraka Brahma God or Allah, I agree with you that Taraka Brahma is not Brahma, He is a temporary phenomenon.
He is not however a "messenger of God" in the Abrahamic fashion but much more than that.
Because of His many supernatural powers (bhags) and other special qualities the people of India call Him Bhagavan. I was so very lucky to have had His darshan a number of times, it cannot be expressed in words.

Most people in India would not call Jesus, Muhammed or Bahaullah Bhagavan because they seem to lack many of those qualities. But they may have been great personalities in their own right.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
- God is all-powerful but that does not mean "God can do anything."
God is not a man so he cannot show up and intervene like a man can.
- One cannot logically blame God for the evil man causes or hold man responsible for it.
- What stopeth him? A power greater than him? A power more vicious than him? Why he hideth from men? Is he disfigured? Does he have a nose? Cleft lips or a squint? A face disfigured by leprosy?
- God seeth an atrocity and doth not acteth! Seeth a calamity and does not acteth! Seeth his creation afflicted by disease and does not acteth! What you sayeth of a human if he/she doth that?
A total farce.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I was never knotted out about anyone's belief in "many Gods." A better question is why is he getting knotted out about my belief in the one God I believe in.
Easy if you can see it. Krishna is his chosen deity and you call him a human and a messenger. My complaint also is the same, especially when you admit that Bahaollah said nothing about Krishna or Buddha (both for us avataras of Lord Vishnu). Stop that and we will stop bugging you, otherwise we also have our views.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
In spite of the greatest attempt of any religion to annihilate all other religions, the Christians failed to annihilate the pagan religions completely and they are back and quite alive. Their ancient structures older than the Christian faith by thousands of years inspire spirituality for the longest period of time in human history. No one not even Jesus can accomplish this. The real test of time resides in the pagan religions.
Yes, we can trace ancient pagan or non-biblical religion all the way back to its base at ancient Babylon.
As those non-biblical people migrated away from ancient Babylon they took with them their non-biblical beliefs and practices and spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
So, yes the ' test of time ' does reside in pagan religions, and just as Jesus taught ' few ' would follow him.
- See Matthew chapter 7 - so the ' test of time' also resides in what Jesus taught.
Even more detailed than just Pagan or Christian is the information that Jesus gave that MANY would consider themselves as his follower but they would prove false according to Matthew 7:21-23.
Jesus was teaching that there is a difference between quantity and quality.
Jesus never instructed his followers to annihilate all other religions, just to take the good news to them.
It was 'Christendom' (so-called Christian, fake 'weed/tares' Christians ) that did Not obey what Jesus taught.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Killing others? Who are the killers? :confused:
Belittling the faith of others = belittling the feelings of others = emotional 'killing' others = spiritual 'killing' others = worse than physical 'killing' others
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
There is so much wrong with this where to begin. How great is a god that tries to make something in his image only to make a flawed copy who then passes evil down to his children. Clearly Adam lacked real wisdom, mercy, love and justice. Clearly not an all powerful god. And a god who could not control another of his mistakes - Satan. Why create a world in which there is suffering at all if this is a perfect god.
.
In Scripture God did Not pass down evil to his children but father Adam did that by deliberately breaking the Law.
Law-breaker Adam was in control of his own actions. ALL are given free-will choices.
Sinner Adam did Not say he was sorry, did Not repent, rather in shame he hid himself.
Satan is the one who made himself into a satan a devil.
Each person is drawn out by one's own desires whether choosing good or bad.
Because we can't stop sinning we die.
Because we can't resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can resurrect us.
This is why God sent pre-human Jesus to Earth for us.
Jesus can an will resurrect the dead - Revelation 1:18
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Not 1st-century Christianity but 'Christendom' (so-called Christian but mostly in name only) is a blend of non-biblical beliefs.
As the ancient people migrated away from ancient Babylon they took with them their non-biblical ideas and spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
This is why we see so many overlapping or similar non-biblical ideas spread throughout the religious world today.
'Christendom' is the fake ' weed/tares' Christians that Jesus warned against.

That sounds true. But I am speaking of scripture being pagan beliefs.
Resurrection at the end of the world, a virgin born world savior, linear time, God vs Satan - all Persian beliefs dating to 1600BC.


Heaven, souls that originate and return, dying/rising savior demigods who get followers into the afterlife following baptism are Hellenistic beliefs.
These were all merged into Judaism during the 2nd temple period when the Persians and Greeks occupied Israel. They are not found in the Torah. In the early OT Satan was an agent of God.
There was a trend in the Middle East of religions being Hellenized. Dr. Petra Pakkanen details this in - Interpreting Early Hellenistic Religion.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You do realize that the Aztecs were practicing rampant human sacrifice (cutting out hearts, flaying people alive and wearing their skin, etc) and cannibalism? They were imperialist themselves, enslaving people and treating them brutally. The Incas, as well. No, you wouldn't want that to exist "in its original state". The noble savage" thing is a racist myth. But we still know about their religion, their worldview and philosophy, they still have their languages and cultures (well, without the widespread human sacrifice and cannibalism), so you can hardly say they were wiped out.


According to Mexican archaeologist Eduardo Matos Moctezuma - "In general, those who were sacrificed were slaves or prisoners of war."
Regarding Aztec sacrifice.

Unearthing the secrets of the Aztecs


No different than Israelite treatment of prisoners:


"However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroya]">[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. "

for all other cities -
"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby."

Wow, women and children. Plunder? Yeah that's exactly as bad as Aztecs sacrificing to a sun God.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
That sounds true. But I am speaking of scripture being pagan beliefs.
Resurrection at the end of the world, a virgin born world savior, linear time, God vs Satan - all Persian beliefs dating to 1600BC.
Heaven, souls that originate and return, dying/rising savior demigods who get followers into the afterlife following baptism are Hellenistic beliefs.
These were all merged into Judaism during the 2nd temple period when the Persians and Greeks occupied Israel. They are not found in the Torah. In the early OT Satan was an agent of God.
There was a trend in the Middle East of religions being Hellenized. Dr. Petra Pakkanen details this in - Interpreting Early Hellenistic Religion.

Very interesting post ^ above ^ and when un-faithful Jews mixed with non-Jews that helped with the developing of Christendom ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only ) - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30; Matthew 7:21-23.
We can trace non-biblical beliefs all the way back to ancient Babylon.
As those ancient people migrated away from ancient Babylon they took with them their religious-myth ideas as spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
This is why we see so many overlapping or similar religious ideas in today's world.
None of which makes the teachings of Jesus as wrong, but makes those men's traditions or customs as wrong.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Very interesting post ^ above ^ and when un-faithful Jews mixed with non-Jews that helped with the developing of Christendom ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only ) - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30; Matthew 7:21-23.
We can trace non-biblical beliefs all the way back to ancient Babylon.
As those ancient people migrated away from ancient Babylon they took with them their religious-myth ideas as spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
This is why we see so many overlapping or similar religious ideas in today's world.
None of which makes the teachings of Jesus as wrong, but makes those men's traditions or customs as wrong.

Regarding Jesus it shows that story is religious syncretism from Persian and Greek religions.
The Persians predicted a world savior and the Hellenistic aspects that were being added to many religions usually had some form of a dying/rising demigod (Son or Daughter of a God), who went through a passion and members were baptized into the religion to obtain entry into the afterlife.
The concept of a soul that goel to heaven is also not a Jewish concept but was another Hellenistic idea that many other religions took for their own theology.

It had nothing to do with "un-faithful" Jews? Over the several centuries they were occupied by Persians the religious leaders would have "revelations" or find passages in the OT that they twisted into meaning that they too were getting a savior and their evil character Satan was also at war with God and so on.
They are all myths passed around by cultures.

The older parts of scripture are where we see syncretism from Mesopotamian myths. Both creation myths are closely following the Mesopotamian stories, Noah follows the Gilamesh flood story, Job is taken from a similar story Jobea.

Jesus isn't right or wrong, they are ancient myths with laws and wisdom of that time. That is what myths do , they teach morals and laws of the day framed around some God, Gods, demigods and so on. We now keep what's good and throw out what isn't.
 
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