Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
That might have happen, in any form of religious/spiritual practice one can get lost. So taking time to practice in a good way is so important
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"What Jesus REALLY meant was ...."
- Thread starter John1.12
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Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Here is an example of how trinitarians would misinterpret them verse above:
- ‘The God of our Lord Jesus’ means that Jesus must be God!
- ‘The God of our Lord Jesus… … The Father of Glory’. So Jesus must be the ‘Father of Glory’
- ‘Give unto the Spirit…’ all three ‘in God’ are mentioned together - so they all must be God… the Godhead!
The Son of God is the Son of the Father because the Father alone is God!
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God - the Spirit of the Father - because the Father is alone is God!
The Son is the HUMAN SON of the Father just as the holy angels are SPIRIT SONS of the Father!
‘Father’:
- “He who creates;
- he who gives life to;
- he who brings into being;
- he who is the head”
He created humanity and proposed that a man of humanity made in his image should rule over creation… Yes! The image of God in flesh should rule over the flesh creation … just as GOD who is SPIRIT rules over all that is Spirit and all that contains or is Spirit!
Trinity claims that it was Jesus who created all things… how??? And why then isn't Jesus called ‘Father’?
The answer is simple… Because Jesus did not CREATE… he did not BRING INTO BEING… he did not GIVE LIFE TO creation.
The DESPERATE ERROR that Trinitarians make is to take the FINAL END of the present time where the Son is GRANTED RULERSHIP OVER ALL CREATED THINGS AS ITS RULER and make it seem as though it was the BEGINNING of all things.
GOD, the Father, RULED that a HUMAN BEING who sinlessly, righteously, in all holiness, perfectly REFLECTS HIS IMAGE to bring glory to himself should rule on the throne of mankind (King David, in this case) OVER CREATION.
This is what Jesus Christ, the man born to replace the first man who fell to sin, Adam. For this reason
Jesus is called, “The Last Adam”, the last human to be wholly created BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
The issue you have is you make Jesus a created being. This flys in the face of the entire NT. A created being that receives all the focus of 27 books, in the way in which he recieves it, would be blasphemous for anyone created .
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Jesus is a man created by God.
God created the first man, Adam.
Adam’s body was ‘red earth’, inert ‘dust’, lifeless… until:
- The holySpirit of God ‘Blew the breath of life into his nostril… and the man became a LIVING SOUL’
Jesus, a man given life by means of the Holy Spirit of God from the inert ‘seed of a woman’, the egg of the Virgin Mary…:
- ‘The Holy Spirit will overshadow you and therefore the son to be born to you shall be holy, and be called the Son of God’
- “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:37-38)
- “So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." (John 8:28-29)
- “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man [Adam], and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-- … …But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man [Adam], how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!“ (Roman 5:12 - 5:15)
Show me what I said was not true.
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Phil 2 explains how and why Jesus did the very things you think demonstrate he isn't divine. The very things he decided to do and become in order to achieve the things he did . Until you realise this you will keep on quoting verses out of context . Mainly every verse that is a result of these verses .
5¶Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
1) What is verse 5 telling us to be like (to have in our mind)?
2) Please can you explain how Jesus did not think that it was robbery to be equal to God?
3) Please explain how you say that Jesus IS NOT GOD but was only in the form of God?
4) What is demonstrated by Jesus making himself of no consequence / no reputation?
5) How do you read verse 11, which says:
6) The text states Jesus as being a Servant. How does this equate to Jesus being ‘God’ yet only ‘equal to God’ that he is not? Is God a servant, wherein GOD SAYS of the coming messiah:
Verse 5 itself says that Jesus WAS /IS NOT GOD. It says that even though Jesus HAD THE POWER OF GOD, JESUS did not think of himself as EQUAL TO GOD!
What I can’t get from your thinking is how you can read that Jesus could be GOD and EQUAL to God… Doesn’t the FACT that it says, ‘EQUAL TO’ tell you that the equated to God CANNOT BE GOD it is equated to?
To illustrate to yourself: Please give me an example of something or someone who is EQUAL to something or someone else AND IS that something or someone else!!!
Please, please, please, do not ignore this question. On this hinges the proper interpretation of Phil 2.
And what does Isaiah 42:1 tell you?
And what does Acts 10:27-28 tell you?
Truth: Both tell you the same thing:
What Phil 2 says is that though Jesus had the power of God by means of his anointing with GOD’s Holy Spirit, he DID NOT THINK TO ABUSE THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT which is why he was first TEMPTED in the wilderness.
Have you not noticed that Jesus did not do anything of a miraculous nature until AFTER he was anointed with HOLY SPIRIT and WITH POWER, and TESTED?
Have you not read how Jesus HUMBLED himself in front of his fellow man and used his powers for good - healing the sick and poor. He held no property, no home, no money of his own yet he was master of all things.
‘And for this reason GOD EXALTED HIM …’.
How is Jesus, ‘GOD’ and yet is ‘exalted BY GOD’?
You are going to say that Jesus BECAME MAN?
I say again, ‘GOD does not BECOME’… and for sure, ‘GOD’ and HIS CREATION (‘Man’) do not intermingle…but the creator can EMPOWER his creation by means of his Holy Spirit, like as how seen at Pentecost.
Man is the CREATION OF GOD, and that is why GOD is FATHER (which means, ‘Creator’, ‘Giver of life’…!)
Jesus was created MAN and endowed with the Spirit of God in full because he was sinless…
The apostles were men who were also endowed with the spirit of God but not in full because they had differing amounts of sin in them.
2) Please can you explain how Jesus did not think that it was robbery to be equal to God?
3) Please explain how you say that Jesus IS NOT GOD but was only in the form of God?
4) What is demonstrated by Jesus making himself of no consequence / no reputation?
5) How do you read verse 11, which says:
- “And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
and 1 Cor 8:6, which says:
- “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ”
which both clearly distinguishes ‘God’ from ‘Lord’ stating ‘GOD’ as ‘the Father’, and ‘Jesus’ as ‘the Lord’.
And yet you still say that ‘Jesus is GOD’?
Would you say that the Sheep owner (God) is the Shepherd of the Sheep (Jesus)?
Would you say that the Sheep owner (God) is the Shepherd of the Sheep (Jesus)?
6) The text states Jesus as being a Servant. How does this equate to Jesus being ‘God’ yet only ‘equal to God’ that he is not? Is God a servant, wherein GOD SAYS of the coming messiah:
- ‘Behold my SERVANT in whom I delight: MY CHOSEN ONE on whom I will put MY SPIRIT’ (Isaiah 42:1)
Verse 5 itself says that Jesus WAS /IS NOT GOD. It says that even though Jesus HAD THE POWER OF GOD, JESUS did not think of himself as EQUAL TO GOD!
What I can’t get from your thinking is how you can read that Jesus could be GOD and EQUAL to God… Doesn’t the FACT that it says, ‘EQUAL TO’ tell you that the equated to God CANNOT BE GOD it is equated to?
To illustrate to yourself: Please give me an example of something or someone who is EQUAL to something or someone else AND IS that something or someone else!!!
Please, please, please, do not ignore this question. On this hinges the proper interpretation of Phil 2.
And what does Isaiah 42:1 tell you?
And what does Acts 10:27-28 tell you?
Truth: Both tell you the same thing:
- That GOD put his holy spirit on Jesus and in so doing Jesus was able to do the works of God.
- We know this from the baptism of Jesus in which John baptised Jesus with water BUT GOD BAPTISED Jesus with the water of holiness, the oil of gladness, the Holy Spirit of God.
- And what was the purpose of the holy oil baptism?
- And what is the other (and more important) name of this act? ANOINTING… What was the purpose of an anointing?
- And what does ‘CHRIST’ mean? Does it not mean: ‘ANOINTED ONE’. Jesus BECAME Jesus [THE] CHRIST, Jesus, the anointed one, after he was anointed with the Holy Spirit of God.
What Phil 2 says is that though Jesus had the power of God by means of his anointing with GOD’s Holy Spirit, he DID NOT THINK TO ABUSE THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT which is why he was first TEMPTED in the wilderness.
Have you not noticed that Jesus did not do anything of a miraculous nature until AFTER he was anointed with HOLY SPIRIT and WITH POWER, and TESTED?
Have you not read how Jesus HUMBLED himself in front of his fellow man and used his powers for good - healing the sick and poor. He held no property, no home, no money of his own yet he was master of all things.
‘And for this reason GOD EXALTED HIM …’.
How is Jesus, ‘GOD’ and yet is ‘exalted BY GOD’?
You are going to say that Jesus BECAME MAN?
I say again, ‘GOD does not BECOME’… and for sure, ‘GOD’ and HIS CREATION (‘Man’) do not intermingle…but the creator can EMPOWER his creation by means of his Holy Spirit, like as how seen at Pentecost.
Man is the CREATION OF GOD, and that is why GOD is FATHER (which means, ‘Creator’, ‘Giver of life’…!)
Jesus was created MAN and endowed with the Spirit of God in full because he was sinless…
The apostles were men who were also endowed with the spirit of God but not in full because they had differing amounts of sin in them.
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ajay0
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I have noticed that some Hindus interpret Jesus as an Avatar or enlightened master while some Buddhists see him as a Buddha or bodhisattva.
But at least, this means Hindus and Buddhists are open minded to his teachings and strive to profit from them, rather than viewing him as a phony or fraudulent cultist which is what Jesus's own Jewish bretthren claimed of Jesus.
So I don't consider the Hindu-Buddhist perception as regressive.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well said, and let me just add that there are some Hindus that believe Jesus is another manifestation of Brahman.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the Living Bible is purported to be a translation by the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit. That isn't rewriting but maybe the English reflects the meaning of the original language better than other translations. However the Holy Spirit has me using The New American Standard and my pastor uses that also.
If Jesus was not God it would have been robbery to be equal with God.
I believe that about the Kjv .
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
You are still not getting it!
How can Jesus be GOD if he is only EQUAL to God?
Equality requires two independent entities to be compared. Jesus is one and GOD is another.
You cannot compare what you say ‘Jesus’ is to what the thing that he is what you say he is.
You are saying that Jesus is god and equal to the god that he is!
Really….?
Can you give me another example of this conundrum of yours?
((An Apple is a fruit and equal to the fruit!!!))
So what do you say to Jesus being anointed BY GOD (the God you say he is) WITH the Holy Spirit (who you would say is [also] God) WITH POWER.
Can you explain to me how GOD needed to anoint GOD with GOD and with POWER that GOD already had?
Thanks.
What do you mean by 'increased knowledge'? Increased spiritual knowledge is like a home coming and the opposite of getting lost.
Your trying to ' rationalise ' how God exists . God is not like us in existence.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
So, you have no answer… why does that not surprise me?
You say that Jesus is God and is equal to God?
- How can something be equal to itself?
- So Jesus is three persons?
- But the Father teaches the son, and the holy spiritual takes of what the Father gives to the son - and that is equality?
- Yet the Father is king and ruler over the greater kingdom of Heaven…. Hmmm… Jesus is DEMOTED as king and ruler over spirit Heaven to become ruler over the limited physical kingdom of flesh? Interesting reward?
Peter says that “God raised [Jesus] from the dead.” So that’s the basic answer. God resurrected Jesus. As we read more Scripture, that basic answer becomes more nuanced.
The Bible indicates that all three Persons of the Trinity were involved in Jesus’ resurrection. Galatians 1:1 says that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. First Peter 3:18 says that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (see also Romans 1:4, and note that Romans 8:11 clearly says that God will resurrect believers “through His Spirit”). And in John 2:19 Jesus predicts that He will raise Himself from the dead (see also John 10:18). So, when we answer the question of who resurrected Jesus, we can say God did. And by that we can mean it was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
It may seem puzzling how Jesus could be said to raise Himself. How can a dead man have any say in his own resurrection? The answer is that Jesus was more than a man who died; He was the eternal Son of God incarnate. Wicked men could kill His body, but they could not change His eternal nature or diminish His divine power. In John 10:17–18 Jesus says something that no mere mortal could ever say: “I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.” No one else in the history of the world has ever had the authority both to lay down his life and to raise it up again.
Furthermore, Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25). He claimed to be the resurrection Himself; He has absolute authority over life and death (Revelation 1:18). Jesus is God. He could say He would raise up His body on the third day because He, being God, has power over death.
Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? God did, and by that we mean all three Persons of the Trinity were involved. All three Persons of the Trinity participated in creation (1 Corinthians 8:6; Genesis 1:1–2). All three are involved in salvation (John 3:6, 16). And all three are responsible for the resurrection of Christ Jesus
natasha levchenko
Member
It depends on a source people use to come to know Jesus.
I open the Bible and read all the information about Jesus.Because I am % sure it is the word of God))
Questions about Jesus’ real identity became common among people of his day, so Jesus asked his apostles who people were saying he was. “Some say John the Baptist,” they replied, “others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets”—all of whom were then dead. Afterward Jesus asked: “‘You, though, who do you say I am?’ In answer Simon Peter said: ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’” Even the demons—wicked angels—said of Jesus: “You are the Son of God.”—Matthew 16:13-16; Luke 4:41.
The account of Jesus’ life was recorded by four of his contemporaries—Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John—two of whom were intimate associates. Their books, named after them, are commonly called the Gospels, parts of which can be read in over two thousand languages.
I open the Bible and read all the information about Jesus.Because I am % sure it is the word of God))
Questions about Jesus’ real identity became common among people of his day, so Jesus asked his apostles who people were saying he was. “Some say John the Baptist,” they replied, “others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets”—all of whom were then dead. Afterward Jesus asked: “‘You, though, who do you say I am?’ In answer Simon Peter said: ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’” Even the demons—wicked angels—said of Jesus: “You are the Son of God.”—Matthew 16:13-16; Luke 4:41.
The account of Jesus’ life was recorded by four of his contemporaries—Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John—two of whom were intimate associates. Their books, named after them, are commonly called the Gospels, parts of which can be read in over two thousand languages.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Hi Natasha, you are right that the scriptures are the word of God…. But be careful and take note of what Jesus says about ‘Wolves in Sheep's clothing’.
Anything you have even an inkling of a doubt about, check for a corresponding verse elsewhere in the Scriptures. If you cannot find one then treat the verse you were reading as suspicious.
For instance, Trinitarians claim that Jesus said he would raise himself from the dead.
Do you believe that?
What does the scriptures say about Jesus being raised from the dead? Does it say that Jesus raised himself from the dead?
I think you will find the answer is ‘NO’.
So what does it say?
Doesn’t it say that the Father raised up Jesus?
So if you are going to believe Trinitarians then Jesus would need to be the Father!!!
So what did Jesus mean by saying he would raise up the TEMPLE in three days.
Note carefully that Jesus DID NOT SAY that he would raise himself up in three days - or at all - it is TRINITARIANS that say that Jesus said that… and it turns out, as you see, that Jesus did not raise himself up…
Jesus was speaking of the ‘temple of the true worship of his Father, GOD’, which means Jesus cannot be God if his Father is God… and it was GOD that raised up Jesus from the dead!!
Explanation: After Jesus died, the disciples SCATTERED for fear that their Lord and Master was gone…. Yes, the ‘Temple of truth’ was pulled down…
But what happened after Jesus was raised up again by God? Jesus REVIVED the temple of truth by showing himself to the disciples….
That is what Jesus meant - AND what he did!
Natasha, that is an example of how you check the validity of what you read in the scriptures.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Can you even believe what you wrote yourself:
- “God raised up Jesus…”
- “God resurrected Jesus…”
NO, it does not say that…. You are using wordplay…
It is OBVIOUS that three are mentioned BUT not as you say.
Jesus is EXEMPT from the ACT OF RAISING as Jesus is the SUBJECT that is raised.
The Holy Spirit IS THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER; the Spirit of God.
So ‘God’ and ‘Father’ are titles of the ONE ALMIGHTY - not TWO PERSONS.
God SENDS his spirit to do his works… this sending does not make HIS SPIRIT a person.
A human Being has a SPIRIT unique to that human Being. It is the spirit of that person that DIRECTS the actions of the body of the person. The spirit of a man is not ‘another man’.
God never leaves his position of power, his seat of glory, his throne. All God’s commands are carried out by means of his Holy Angels, or his OWN HOLY SPIRIT.
Wrong again!
Despicable, disingenuous, and inventive creations do not hide the truth of your error. Jesus did not have ‘Authority’ to raise up his own body because he was DEAD!! The dead body turns back to dust and the spirit goes to rest with the creator of spirits, God, the Father.
Scriptures tells us that it was the fathers pleasure that he should raise up Jesus … that could hardly be said to be Jesus’ own authority in use!
Jesus was commanded to lay down his life for the sin of Adam. That part is true… but he AGONISED to the point that his skin sweated blood over whether the Father could raise him up again…. Again, that can hardly be said to be the act of someone with authority…
The Father GRANTED Jesus to have resurrection ability in him. Jesus was GRANTED to give life to those whom he judged as worthy at the judgement seat at the end of time…. Jesus cannot be GOD if GOD granted him to have the ability to do what he will do.
What was Jesus BEFORE God granted the ability to him?
You just quoted it again:
- “GOD RESURRECTED JESUS”
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