Pagan religions are generally seen as those religions that are non-Abrahamic, which includes Zoroastrianism.
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Two Kinds of Religion
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
They’re not Abrahamic. Ahura in Ahura Mazda is cognate with Vedic Sanskrit asura meaning ‘lord’. He has no connection with Yahweh, originally a Northwestern Semitic war god. I consider any non-Abrahamics to be Pagan, monotheistic, polytheistic, henotheistic
"one true God"
Said like that, it would seem kind of silly for a Pagan to say "yes, I accept that @Trailblazer's God is the true one, and all mine are false." They likely wouldn't be a Pagan if they felt that that God was the true one, and would comfortably convert into an Abrahamic faith.
Do you believe the only way a Pagan can be tolerant of the God of Abraham is to take him for their own?
I always thought the best way to be tolerant of another's faith was to not seek to denigrate their faith, and to encourage them on their path, even if it differed from their own.
Accept as in believe he exists, or accept to worship? I believe he exists, and I respect and am tolerant of his worshipers... my husband is Catholic, my family is Catholic, just about everyone I know is Christian, and to a lesser extent, Jewish. But I don’t worship him. Does that make me, as a Pagan, intolerant?
A place to start might be Plato's Euthyphro c. 400 BCE, where Socrates and Euthyphro discuss whether X is pious because the gods approve of it, or whether the gods approve of X because it is pious. The relevance here is the explicit link between the pagan gods on the one hand and piety / virtuous conduct / proper conduct / morality on the other.
Another clear example of the link between Greek pagan gods and morality is the idea, not just of the soul, but of the soul being judged. As Plato describes in the "Legend of Er" ─
In the intermediate space there were judges seated, who commanded the just, after they had given judgment on them and had bound their sentences in front of them, to ascend by the heavenly way on the right hand; and in like manner the unjust were bidden by them to descend by the lower way on the left hand; these also bore the symbols of their deeds, but fastened on their backs. [Tr. Benj. Jowett]
These Greek ideas have had their influence on Christianity, of course.
So I think there was an active cultural association of the gods and morality in Classical antiquity.
Likewise Zoroastrianism, which appears to date back to the 2nd millennium BCE, represents the world as a war between good and evil, light and dark.
I'm less clear about other pagans. For example, the Celts had, and have, the idea of a parallel world occupied by supernatural beings, linked to our world by particular portals and seasons. It's my impression that this wasn't associated with ideas of a land of the general dead, at least not until relatively modern times, but I'm happy to be corrected.
Norse mythology appears to be much younger. If heroes are carried postmortally to Valhalla, where do the virtuous others end up, if anywhere? Hel rules Hel, but her customers seem a rather random lot.
More information needed.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
My point was that unless pagan religions accept the one true God of the Abrahamic religions they are no more tolerant than Abrahamic religions who do not accept the many gods of the pagan religions.
The point is that Baha'is believe there is only one God and we call Him the one true God because we don't believe there is any other God but God.
“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73
Apparently, you don't know what I mean by the "one true God." That God is not only that God of the Abrahamic religions, He is the God of all the religions. The Baha'i Faith just happens to be an Abrahamic religion because Baha'u'llah was a descendant of Abraham, but the God Baha'is believe in is not the God of Abraham, He is the God of all the religions that ever existed or ever will exist in the future. I don't know how much more tolerant we can be.
The point is that Baha'is believe there is only one God and we call Him the one true God because we don't believe there is any other God but God.
“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Traditional pagan animosities towards Christianity were largely motivated by Christians' unwillingness to take part in the traditional rituals and sacrifices that were considered important to these communities. This caused not only friction with local communities, but when the Roman Emperors introduced more-or-less compulsive rituals and sacrifices to protect their Empire and maintain its strength, that friction quickly turned into accusations of treason, which turned into persecution.
One point I want to stress is that distinction of orthopraxy vs. orthodoxy - the ruling pagan elites largely didn't care what people believed as long as they publically worshipped the gods in the proper manner, while Christians only cared about their personal beliefs and therefore saw no point engaging in, to them, meaningless rituals that did nothing and glorified gods that didn't exist.
I respect your belief, but many Pagans do not see God as 'one'. Polytheism does exist, and some folks do see God as many. They will not all agree to just one God(in whatever form).
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I guess I meant believe He exists, I certainly did not mean worship Him. You might be the exception because of your background because I do not think that all pagan religions accept that there is a God like Jews and Christians believe in. How could they believe in one God if they believe in many gods? That is contradictory.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
And that is their right to believe in anything they want to just as it is my right to believe in anything I want to.
But does that belief make them intolerant?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, intolerance is an attitude, it is not associated with any particular religious belief.
That we can agree on. I've found intolerance(or tolerance) from all walks of life.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I feel sad for your friend. Yes, I believe the pagan religions that do not exist now were just as complex as Hinduism today is. We are fortunate that we still survive and are vigorous though we lost some one third of our people to (basically) Islam.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yeah, the person will still remain a pagan, but an incomplete pagan. Every one is imperfect and perhaps perfection does not exist. But then in paganism (Hinduism too), there is no mechanism to declare a person renegade, like the Muslims and Bahais do. Perhaps some Christian sects also do tht.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Why should we tolerate a religion which disregards all our numerous Gods and Goddesses. If he gives something to the Bahais, we have no problem with it. We get the same from our various Gods (Atheist pagans like me do not desire any gift or mercy, an idea which I find ludicrous). Let the One God do whatever he does, witnesseth, giveth or taketh. Does the One God helpeth during Corona times, does he helpeth when he sendeth other calamities. All BS.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's how it goes with an all-powerful God. He does whatever He wants to do and doesn't do anything He does not want to do.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
To me there is one choice: the above statement is false
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
@Trailblazer: I totally and wholeheartedly disagree with your statement
That is the same like saying "India should accept that the US nukes India"
That is just too absurd for words ... its exactly what narcissists usually claim
@stvdvRF
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
This is so very true. The moment you tolerate such horrible religions, you have killed yourself
"my way is the highway" reflects the basis of lack of mutual respect, as does "our God is the true and only God"