Pagan religions are generally seen as those religions that are non-Abrahamic, which includes Zoroastrianism.Why do you consider Zoroastrians pagan?
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Pagan religions are generally seen as those religions that are non-Abrahamic, which includes Zoroastrianism.Why do you consider Zoroastrians pagan?
Why do you consider Zoroastrians pagan?
My point was that unless pagan religions accept the one true God of the Abrahamic religions they are no more tolerant than Abrahamic religions who do not accept the many gods of the pagan religions.
My point was that unless pagan religions accept the one true God of the Abrahamic religions they are no more tolerant than Abrahamic religions who do not accept the many gods of the pagan religions.
A place to start might be Plato's Euthyphro c. 400 BCE, where Socrates and Euthyphro discuss whether X is pious because the gods approve of it, or whether the gods approve of X because it is pious. The relevance here is the explicit link between the pagan gods on the one hand and piety / virtuous conduct / proper conduct / morality on the other.This is another thought I've had from my foray into Paganism.
I've reached the conclusion that Abrahamic (and monotheistic religions generally) and many Pagan religions (excluding certain Dharmic paths) are not the same thing. And by 'thing' I mean 'religion'. I think describing these two both as 'religion' is to miss the mark terribly. They are not the same in concept at all. @The Hammer essentially said on my other thread that Abrahamic religions are top down, while Pagan religions are bottom up. One has directions from God; do this, don't do that; wear this, not that; pray this many times; etc. As well as having an all-powerful force that cannot be tampered with, whether by magic, ritual or otherwise. Pagan beliefs tend to be nothing like this, and are built from the ground up, rather, in my view, from folks seeing things around themselves and making certain inferences. There aren't any dos and don'ts such as there are in Abrahamic systems.
Another main point I would like to make is that philosophies tend to exist separately from Pagan religions themselves such as in Greece and Rome, where philosophy (especially moral) was distinct from religion but one could, and rather should, have both - this seems foreign to an Abrahamic mindset, where one's religion essentially dictates one's philosophy and is basically the same thing.
I think it could reasonably be argued that these two God-beliefs are so distinct as to be different things and not really apt to be put under the same banner of 'religion'.
Apparently, you don't know what I mean by the "one true God." That God is not only that God of the Abrahamic religions, He is the God of all the religions. The Baha'i Faith just happens to be an Abrahamic religion because Baha'u'llah was a descendant of Abraham, but the God Baha'is believe in is not the God of Abraham, He is the God of all the religions that ever existed or ever will exist in the future. I don't know how much more tolerant we can be."one true God"
Said like that, it would seem kind of silly for a Pagan to say "yes, I accept that @Trailblazer's God is the true one, and all mine are false." They likely wouldn't be a Pagan if they felt that that God was the true one, and would comfortably convert into an Abrahamic faith.
Do you believe the only way a Pagan can be tolerant of the God of Abraham is to take him for their own?
I always thought the best way to be tolerant of another's faith was to not seek to denigrate their faith, and to encourage them on their path, even if it differed from their own.
Traditional pagan animosities towards Christianity were largely motivated by Christians' unwillingness to take part in the traditional rituals and sacrifices that were considered important to these communities. This caused not only friction with local communities, but when the Roman Emperors introduced more-or-less compulsive rituals and sacrifices to protect their Empire and maintain its strength, that friction quickly turned into accusations of treason, which turned into persecution.Good point.
Like the Christians, their religion seemed sensible to them, because it was familiar. The familiar always seems sensible, flaws and inconsistencies are auto-deleted, and go unnoticed.
These strange, monotheistic religions seemed bonkers to the ancients. Their flaws were glaringly obvious, in a way the similarly glaring inconsistencies of their native religions were not -- to them.
The way to resolve these controversies, of course, is observation, evidence and testing. If you can't base a claim on these, you're just blowin' smoke.
My point was that unless pagan religions accept the one true God of the Abrahamic religions they are no more tolerant than Abrahamic religions who do not accept the many gods of the pagan religions.
Apparently, you don't know what I mean by the "one true God." That God is not only that God of the Abrahamic religions, He is the God of all the religions. The Baha'i Faith just happens to be an Abrahamic religion because Baha'u'llah was a descendant of Abraham, but the God Baha'is believe in is not the God of Abraham, He is the God of all the religions that ever existed or ever will exist in the future. I don't know how much more tolerant we can be.
The point is that Baha'is believe there is only one God and we call Him the one true God because we don't believe there is any other God but God.
“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73
I guess I meant believe He exists, I certainly did not mean worship Him. You might be the exception because of your background because I do not think that all pagan religions accept that there is a God like Jews and Christians believe in. How could they believe in one God if they believe in many gods? That is contradictory.Accept as in believe he exists, or accept to worship? I believe he exists, and I respect and am tolerant of his worshipers... my husband is Catholic, my family is Catholic, just about everyone I know is Christian, and to a lesser extent, Jewish. But I don’t worship him. Does that make me, as a Pagan, intolerant?
And that is their right to believe in anything they want to just as it is my right to believe in anything I want to.I respect your belief, but many Pagans do not see God as 'one'. Polytheism does exist, and some folks do see God as many. They will not all agree to just one God(in whatever form).
And that is their right to believe in anything they want to just as it is my right to believe in anything I want to.
No, intolerance is an attitude, it is not associated with any particular religious belief.But does that belief make them intolerant?
No, intolerance is an attitude, it is not associated with any particular religious belief.
I feel sad for your friend. Yes, I believe the pagan religions that do not exist now were just as complex as Hinduism today is. We are fortunate that we still survive and are vigorous though we lost some one third of our people to (basically) Islam.I took a Pagan friend with me to my Hindu temple once. He remarked at one point "I bet my own religion was once this complex". He felt sad, wondering all the things that would be available for him today regarding his religion if history hadn't gone the way it had.
Yeah, the person will still remain a pagan, but an incomplete pagan. Every one is imperfect and perhaps perfection does not exist. But then in paganism (Hinduism too), there is no mechanism to declare a person renegade, like the Muslims and Bahais do. Perhaps some Christian sects also do tht.What would you call someone who constructs their own religion from the ground up, and doesn't adhere to do's and don'ts? Is that still pagan?
Why should we tolerate a religion which disregards all our numerous Gods and Goddesses. If he gives something to the Bahais, we have no problem with it. We get the same from our various Gods (Atheist pagans like me do not desire any gift or mercy, an idea which I find ludicrous). Let the One God do whatever he does, witnesseth, giveth or taketh. Does the One God helpeth during Corona times, does he helpeth when he sendeth other calamities. All BS.My point was that unless pagan religions accept the one true God of the Abrahamic religions they are no more tolerant than Abrahamic religions who do not accept the many gods of the pagan religions.
“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
That's how it goes with an all-powerful God. He does whatever He wants to do and doesn't do anything He does not want to do.Let the One God do whatever he does, witnesseth, giveth or taketh.
To me there is one choice: the above statement is falseTo me there are two (2) choices: one kind of religion is false, and one kind of religion is religious truth.
@Trailblazer: I totally and wholeheartedly disagree with your statementMy point was that unless pagan religions accept the one true God of the Abrahamic religions they are no more tolerant than Abrahamic religions who do not accept the many gods of the pagan religions.
This is so very true. The moment you tolerate such horrible religions, you have killed yourselfWhy should we tolerate a religion which disregards all our numerous Gods and Goddesses