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How does one test their own religion?

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Is religion falsifiable?

Can we apply the scientific method to religion?

Who here approaches religion from the ground up assuming nothing yet entertains existence as a mystery that requires some kind of spirituality and possibly a creative aspect requiring agency?

People invest their own personal identities in their religion, yet do they ever do external objective analysis and research before jumping into their faith?

Does your faith require that only internal sources of knowledge are allowed?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Is religion falsifiable?
Some of its claims are.

Can we apply the scientific method to religion?
Depends on the extent to which the religion in question makes claims regarding the material realm.

Who here approaches religion from the ground up assuming nothing yet entertains existence as a mystery that requires some kind of spirituality and possibly a creative aspect requiring agency?
Not me to be honest.

People invest their own personal identities in their religion, yet do they ever do external objective analysis and research before jumping into their faith?
I've done the best I can with imperfect results.

Does your faith require that only internal sources of knowledge are allowed?
No.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Is religion falsifiable?

Can we apply the scientific method to religion?

Who here approaches religion from the ground up assuming nothing yet entertains existence as a mystery that requires some kind of spirituality and possibly a creative aspect requiring agency?

People invest their own personal identities in their religion, yet do they ever do external objective analysis and research before jumping into their faith?

Does your faith require that only internal sources of knowledge are allowed?
My religion is full of flaws and whatnot. That's the beauty of it.

I test it out against day to day living and gauging if things are easier or more tolerable as time progress.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We can apply the scientific method to specific claims of religion.

When religion ventures outside its proper sphere of values, and starts making declarations of fact, it's invaded science's turf, and should tread carefully. It's on thin ice.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Is religion falsifiable?........?
I find the false religion of the Pharisees was falsificable according to Matthew chapter 23.
Jesus pronounced many 'woes' against them along with his reasons why.
We can test out the religion of Jesus by his making many cross references to the old Hebrew Scriptures.
So, one can test their own religion by the teachings of Jesus.
Then, one can see the logical reasoning on which Jesus used in order to base his teachings for us.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Is religion falsifiable?

Can we apply the scientific method to religion?

Buddhism's Four Noble Truths meet that test. We can see suffering. We can study and determine what causes suffering. From that follows the theory that it's possible to end suffering. The 4th truth provides a method. People can follow the method and see for themselves the result.

It's much less clear for others. The problem of theodicy is to me a real issue with some religions. If a Christian can't explain why a little child suffers when Jesus came to redeem the sins of humanity and God is love, it fails that test.

People invest their own personal identities in their religion, yet do they ever do external objective analysis and research before jumping into their faith?

A lot of people just follow the religion they're brought up with with little or no examination.

Some do question. We probably have a greater percentage of those people here on RF than for the general public.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
Is religion falsifiable?

Can we apply the scientific method to religion?

Who here approaches religion from the ground up assuming nothing yet entertains existence as a mystery that requires some kind of spirituality and possibly a creative aspect requiring agency?

People invest their own personal identities in their religion, yet do they ever do external objective analysis and research before jumping into their faith?

Does your faith require that only internal sources of knowledge are allowed?

The answers really depend on the specific religion, but successful modern religions have evolved to protect their core propositions from testing or falsifiability. For example, if the Christian god is outside of space and time, then we cannot inspect that supposed realm to determine no god is there. That experiment can't be run, at least for the foreseeable future.

Approaching claims from the ground up is the hallmark of science; it's the empirical epistemology. As an atheist, this is how I approach everything I believe or might become convinced of. For that reason, I can't believe most metaphysical claims because I don't see how we can substantiate metaphysical claims using ground-up evidence. In contrast to many Christians who accept unfalsifiable claims because no one can disprove them, I and most atheists reject claims that have not yet been confirmed by sufficient evidence. If someone values believing as many true things and as few false things as possible, then I think my approach is the better one.

I wish all religious people would do an objective external analysis of their beliefs. Heck, non-religious people should as well. I think a good tool to use is the outsider test for faith as described by John Loftus. Examine what your religious beliefs are, and why, and then mentally swap out those beliefs for some other potential claim that is supported by an equivalent quality and quantity of evidence. If you wouldn't believe that other claim, then why do you accept your own religious beliefs? The YouTube channel "Pinecreek" does this to good effect using the hypothetical story of the Flying Man, who flew over the Grand Canyon hundreds of years ago, and some anonymous diaries were left claiming he did so, which also state that 500 people witnessed it, etc. He adds one claim after another, mirroring the supposed evidence for the resurrection, and checks whether they'd believe it yet. It is fascinating to watch how many Christians say they wouldn't accept this claim, even if all the evidence were functionally equivalent to what justifies their belief in the resurrection of Jesus.

When talking to theists, I've noticed that a lot of them don't seem to hold their faith for evidentiary reasons. Rather, they were indoctrinated at a young age and have become dependent on their beliefs for their feelings of self-worth, life purpose, and hope for the future. It is what they need to feel like the world is intelligible. It's hard to argue someone out of such beliefs using evidence, when they would have to go through the emotional work of knocking this all down and rebuild it from scratch. I suppose this is true of everyone's worldview to some extent, even atheists, but our views are arrived at through open inquiry and freedom to doubt. I think that leads to a stronger foundation, with a stronger justification. When I only accept claims that can be reliably demonstrated, then I'm not attaching emotional reliance to things that likely aren't real, and I don't have to do the constant work of propping up imaginary notions just so I can get through my day.

So go ahead. Ask questions. Run some thought experiments. If your beliefs are true and justified then this approach can only strengthen them.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Galileo falsified the church's claim that the Earth was stationary. It didn't go well for him, and the church rejected his research.

Conclusion: The church is not interested in facts, just doctrine. The church is threatened by facts, and will deny or actively suppress them.
Ergo: applying the scientific method to religion can be both futile and hazardous.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Is religion falsifiable?

Can we apply the scientific method to religion?
I would answer yes to both.

Who here approaches religion from the ground up assuming nothing yet entertains existence as a mystery that requires some kind of spirituality and possibly a creative aspect requiring agency?
Not sure I understand this question.
Right now my brain is in relax mode, so that may be why.

People invest their own personal identities in their religion, yet do they ever do external objective analysis and research before jumping into their faith?
A thorough careful examination is required for those seeking truth.
Persons, past and present, had a measuring instrument for verifying truth.

Does your faith require that only internal sources of knowledge are allowed?
Most definitely not.
Believing blindly, or entirely subjective, with no solid external evidence is not a part of the true Christian faith,
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The answers really depend on the specific religion, but successful modern religions have evolved to protect their core propositions from testing or falsifiability. For example, if the Christian god is outside of space and time, then we cannot inspect that supposed realm to determine no god is there. That experiment can't be run, at least for the foreseeable future.

Approaching claims from the ground up is the hallmark of science; it's the empirical epistemology. As an atheist, this is how I approach everything I believe or might become convinced of. For that reason, I can't believe most metaphysical claims because I don't see how we can substantiate metaphysical claims using ground-up evidence. In contrast to many Christians who accept unfalsifiable claims because no one can disprove them, I and most atheists reject claims that have not yet been confirmed by sufficient evidence. If someone values believing as many true things and as few false things as possible, then I think my approach is the better one.

I wish all religious people would do an objective external analysis of their beliefs. Heck, non-religious people should as well. I think a good tool to use is the outsider test for faith as described by John Loftus. Examine what your religious beliefs are, and why, and then mentally swap out those beliefs for some other potential claim that is supported by an equivalent quality and quantity of evidence. If you wouldn't believe that other claim, then why do you accept your own religious beliefs? The YouTube channel "Pinecreek" does this to good effect using the hypothetical story of the Flying Man, who flew over the Grand Canyon hundreds of years ago, and some anonymous diaries were left claiming he did so, which also state that 500 people witnessed it, etc. He adds one claim after another, mirroring the supposed evidence for the resurrection, and checks whether they'd believe it yet. It is fascinating to watch how many Christians say they wouldn't accept this claim, even if all the evidence were functionally equivalent to what justifies their belief in the resurrection of Jesus.

When talking to theists, I've noticed that a lot of them don't seem to hold their faith for evidentiary reasons. Rather, they were indoctrinated at a young age and have become dependent on their beliefs for their feelings of self-worth, life purpose, and hope for the future. It is what they need to feel like the world is intelligible. It's hard to argue someone out of such beliefs using evidence, when they would have to go through the emotional work of knocking this all down and rebuild it from scratch. I suppose this is true of everyone's worldview to some extent, even atheists, but our views are arrived at through open inquiry and freedom to doubt. I think that leads to a stronger foundation, with a stronger justification. When I only accept claims that can be reliably demonstrated, then I'm not attaching emotional reliance to things that likely aren't real, and I don't have to do the constant work of propping up imaginary notions just so I can get through my day.

So go ahead. Ask questions. Run some thought experiments. If your beliefs are true and justified then this approach can only strengthen them.
What do you say of an Atheist, born to Atheists; exposed to Atheism all their early years, who becomes religious and believes in a supreme creator - God?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Is religion falsifiable?

Can we apply the scientific method to religion?
No and no.
Who here approaches religion from the ground up assuming nothing yet entertains existence as a mystery that requires some kind of spirituality and possibly a creative aspect requiring agency?
Not sure what you are asking.
People invest their own personal identities in their religion, yet do they ever do external objective analysis and research before jumping into their faith?
People should do research before they choose to believe in a faith.
Does your faith require that only internal sources of knowledge are allowed?
No, absolutely not. We should look at all sources of knowledge.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
What do you say of an Atheist, born to Atheists; exposed to Atheism all their early years, who becomes religious and believes in a supreme creator - God?

People convert from one belief system to another for myriad reasons. That being said, I have listened to the testimonials of many atheists who converted to Christianity. I acknowledge that's a limited selection pool, basically anecdotal. Still, none of them said they were primarily convinced by a critical examination of the evidence. For all of them, there was an emotional hook, where some emotional need wasn't being met in their lives and they needed more guaranteed assurance than they were getting with atheism. As a variant of this, many atheists convert when they meet someone they are romantically interested in, who happens to be religious.

There is a reason that evangelists and missionaries selectively target people who are emotionally vulnerable, confused, or desperate for affection. It is much easier to convince people to believe religious claims in these circumstances for emotional reasons, because the actual evidence for religious claims just isn't there. To tie this in with my original post, I'd say in these cases people are actively seeking to become dependent on religious claims for the hope, meaning and purpose. I suppose that ultimately some people need these assurances, and some simply don't. For myself, emotional appeals tend not to convince me to believe new facts about reality.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Is religion falsifiable?

Can we apply the scientific method to religion?

Who here approaches religion from the ground up assuming nothing yet entertains existence as a mystery that requires some kind of spirituality and possibly a creative aspect requiring agency?

People invest their own personal identities in their religion, yet do they ever do external objective analysis and research before jumping into their faith?

Does your faith require that only internal sources of knowledge are allowed?

is it possible that religion can be seen for what it really is when one removes oneself from it’s trappings (all the tasks and duties religion gives a person to keep them occupied)?

is it possible to remove falsities that have been made a part of some underlying desire of the person? do people often get heavily invested in their beliefs and have a difficult time letting them go?

don’t most religions pretty much demand that only internal sources of knowledge should be allowed into a follower of said religion?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
To tie this in with my original post, I'd say in these cases people are actively seeking to become dependent on religious claims for the hope, meaning and purpose. I suppose that ultimately some people need these assurances, and some simply don't. For myself, emotional appeals tend not to convince me to believe new facts about reality.
And I'd say that atheists are better off to remain atheists unless they can find a religion that stands up to intellectual scrutiny. It is better to have no religion than a false religion because once you have a false religion it is very difficult to extricate yourself from it, especially if it has that emotional component as does Christianity. Jesus loves me and I am saved, I don't know exactly why people fall for that. Then again, I became a believer because of the evidence that God exists, not because I needed love or to be saved.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
And I'd say that atheists are better off to remain atheists unless they can find a religion that stands up to intellectual scrutiny. It is better to have no religion than a false religion because once you have a false religion it is very difficult to extricate yourself from it, especially if it has that emotional component as does Christianity. Jesus loves me and I am saved, I don't know exactly why people fall for that. Then again, I became a believer because of the evidence that God exists, not because I needed love or to be saved.

Thanks for the reply and thoughts. I'd be fascinated to hear what evidence was compelling enough to convince you. I admit I don't know very much about the Baha'i belief system. It sounds like it doesn't rely on breaking down people's self-worth and then building them back up with an emotional dependence on the faith, like the most populous denominations of Christianity and Islam. Does the Baha'i religion have a standard set of evidence it provides to justify belief, or do you have a more personal set of evidence that impacted you?

Oh, and I'm going to bed now, but if you do reply then I can hopefully continue the chat tomorrow.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
For myself, emotional appeals tend not to convince me to believe new facts about reality.
Nor should they. It should be based on evidence, whether it be external evidence or facts, or a spiritual awaking in oneself, which is something I have found to be evidence, in my opinion. Trailblazer thinks her evidence is based on external evidence, or at least that's the impression I've gotten, but there is a spiritual component there I think.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Is religion falsifiable?
Religion can be because it is believed by humans.

Can we apply the scientific method to religion?
The Scientific Method sometimes fails, because it is applied by humans.
Plenty of such examples can be shown.

Who here approaches religion from the ground up assuming nothing yet entertains existence as a mystery that requires some kind of spirituality and possibly a creative aspect requiring agency?
Ground up? Yes.
Existence as a mystery? Yes
Spirituality? No
Creative aspect? No
......Deism.

People invest their own personal identities in their religion, yet do they ever do external objective analysis and research before jumping into their faith?
Yes. Look around. Observe. Notice.
Nature is all around, our supervisor here on Earth.

Does your faith require that only internal sources of knowledge are allowed?
What knowledge? Whose knowledge?
Nature is all, here. Humans make mistakes, so you'll have to look around for truth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Thanks for the reply and thoughts. I'd be fascinated to hear what evidence was compelling enough to convince you. I admit I don't know very much about the Baha'i belief system. It sounds like it doesn't rely on breaking down people's self-worth and then building them back up with an emotional dependence on the faith, like the most populous denominations of Christianity and Islam. Does the Baha'i religion have a standard set of evidence it provides to justify belief, or do you have a more personal set of evidence that impacted you?

Oh, and I'm going to bed now, but if you do reply then I can hopefully continue the chat tomorrow.
No, the Baha'i Faith does not have a standard set of evidence it provides to justify belief, as we all come to believe for different reasons. That said, Baha'u'llah enjoined us to look at certain evidence as proof of His claim to be a Messenger of God. I can explain what all this means later if you want.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106


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The evidence that impacted me initially was the factual evidence about the Baha'i Faith and the fact that the underpinning principles were reasonable, but later my heart (emotions) were impacted. I think it is beneficial for the heart to be involved as long as it does not cloud one's judgment, and if the facts are established first that does not happen. Below is a post I wrote on another thread entitled: How important are facts within your religious beliefs?

adrian009 said:
Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?


Trailblazer said:
Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whatever books had been published about the Baha'i Faith at that time and I read the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.

Emotions can be very misleading so I rely upon facts. As I always tell people, I never had any mushy-gushy feelings towards God or Baha'u'llah; I just know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age because of the facts surrounding the life and mission of Baha'u'llah and because the theology is logical.

It was only 43 years after I had become a Baha'i that I connected with the Writings of Baha'u'llah on both an intellectual and an emotional level when I read Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh for the first time with serious intent, and that is when I realized without a doubt that Baha'u'llah was speaking for God. My life has never been the same since. Before that I had believed in God and I knew Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God; after that I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that God existed and Baha'u'llah was His Representative for this age. Such was the effect that little book had upon my heart and mind. In the Preface to the paperback it says:

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.” Gleanings

And now that I have clearly glimpsed the spirit of this book I guess I am a lifer.
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#22 Trailblazer
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Is religion falsifiable?

Can we apply the scientific method to religion?

Who here approaches religion from the ground up assuming nothing yet entertains existence as a mystery that requires some kind of spirituality and possibly a creative aspect requiring agency?

People invest their own personal identities in their religion, yet do they ever do external objective analysis and research before jumping into their faith?

Does your faith require that only internal sources of knowledge are allowed?
First part of sufism is to look within once own being, to "clean" once self for impurity. Then when this is done it is possible to see the physical world as it truly are, without the veil of our ego.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
- Is religion falsifiable? Can we apply the scientific method to religion?
Who here approaches religion from the ground up assuming nothing yet entertains existence as a mystery that requires some kind of spirituality and possibly a creative aspect requiring agency?
- do they ever do external objective analysis and research before jumping into their faith?
- Does your faith require that only internal sources of knowledge are allowed?
- Like Danieldemole said, scientific method can be applied to many claims that religions make. For example existence of God, soul, heaven, hell, judgment and prophets / son / messengers / manifestations /mahdis.
- Assuming anything without first checking on it is prohibited in my belief.
- Yes, I do that on a regular basis, every day.
- There is no central scripture in my belief though references are there is all Hindu scriptures. I have no hesitation in accepting sources in Science. I have considered all Abrahamic scriptures and found them just to be spreaders of ignorance and superstition.
Jesus pronounced many 'woes' against them along with his reasons why.
Not surprised. What else can the son of a jealous God do other than that - curse. Like father, like son.
 
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