Who is the first and the last?

Trailblazer · May 28, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
There are a number of places in scripture where Jesus is called Saviour.

Isaiah 43:3. ' for I am the Holy One of Israel, thy saviour'.

This is confirmed in Mark 1:24, when a man with an unclean spirit says, 'I know thee who thou art, the holy One of God'. In Acts 3:14, Jesus is again referred to as 'the holy One and the Just'.

In Luke 2:11, the angel announces 'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.'

John 4:42. 'And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.'

Although Jesus did not go about proclaiming himself as Saviour, it is clear that angels and demons all recognised him as Saviour, and people listening to him recognised him as the Messiah, the one who would save his people.

1 John 4:14.'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.'

I asked:
Where in the Bible did Jesus ever say He was our Savior and what did Jesus say he saved us from?
Where did Jesus ever say that He saved us from the Original Sin of Adam and Eve?

Thanks for your reply.

I agree that Jesus was the Savior of the world, but I do not believe that what we were saved from was an original sin committed by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. I believe that story was allegorical, nothing that literally happened.

Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus besought the one true God the honor of sacrificing himself as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. Notably, Jesus never said anything about an original sin committed by Adam and Eve as the 'reason' for His sacrifice.

The 'reason' for the cross sacrifice and what humanity was saved from is explained in my next post.

Trailblazer · May 28, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
Romans 6:23. 'For the wages of sin is death;'.

1 Corinthians 15:22. 'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.'

It's a plain truth if you don't try to explain it away!

I asked:
Where did Jesus ever say that He saved us from the Original Sin of Adam and Eve?

How Adam brought sin into the world and how Christ saved us from that sin is explained below:

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality....

All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.

Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.

Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.

But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment.

This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?
Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-120

Read more: 29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS

Trailblazer · May 28, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
The MAN Jesus did not want or demand worship, but not all people saw Jesus as only a man. Peter, for example, saw him as Christ, and Jesus said, 'for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.'

Jesus was more than a man, He was a Manifestation of God with a twofold nature, part man and part God.

1 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Redemptionsong said:
Isaiah 45:22-25, states that 'unto me [the LORD] every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.'

Isaiah 45:22-25 is about God, not about Jesus.

Redemptionsong said:
How can the LORD not be Jesus Christ when Philippians 2:10,11 says, 'That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.'?

Simple, every knee should bow to Jesus because He was a Manifestation of God.
Jesus Christ was a Manifestation of the Lord God, but not God in the flesh because God cannot become flesh.

"The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God."
Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

Trailblazer · May 28, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
The scriptures do not agree with your assessment.

In Ephesians it stresses the importance of ONE God.
Ephesians 4:4-6. 'There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.' [Speaking to the Church]

The scriptures do not contradict my assessment.
That's right, there is only One faith and One God and Father of all. That faith is revealed in various chapters throughout human history and Christianity is only one of those chapters. The latest chapter was revealed by Baha'u'llah....

Baha'u'llah called His Faith the changeless Faith of God because the spiritual truths are eternal, they do not change from age to age.

“Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

Redemptionsong · May 28, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I asked:
Where did Jesus ever say that He saved us from the Original Sin of Adam and Eve?

How Adam brought sin into the world and how Christ saved us from that sin is explained below:

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality....

All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.

Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.

Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.

But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment.

This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?
Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-120

Read more: 29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS

To my understanding, all the prophets and messengers of God, barring Christ, were sinners. This does not mean that they could not prophesy, but that they had, at some point in their lives, fallen short of God's glory. We know that Moses, for example, committed a murder as a young man.

To say that all men die is an observable truth. The scriptures tell us that the reason for death is sin. Other creatures do not have the human capacity for knowing good and evil, but sin affects all creation.

Jesus said, 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' Jesus was born of Mary, born of the flesh. He was also born of God's Spirit at baptism. So, by the time he ministered, Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God. The thing that distinguishes Jesus Christ from all others born of the Holy Spirit is 'measure'. Jesus Christ received the Holy Spirit 'without measure' because his faith was perfect. All others receive the Holy Spirit by measure because their faith, or lack of, places a limit on what they receive.

Only the faith of Jesus Christ was perfect, and this makes his words and actions perfect. In turn, this makes his death a perfect offering to God, as a lamb without blemish. As an acceptable offering, God raised Jesus from the dead. No other man, or offering, was acceptable to a perfect God.

Trailblazer · May 28, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
To my understanding, all the prophets and messengers of God, barring Christ, were sinners. This does not mean that they could not prophesy, but that they had, at some point in their lives, fallen short of God's glory. We know that Moses, for example, committed a murder as a young man.

I believe that all of the Manifestations of God were sinless, and that is according to God, not according to human fallible opinions on what constitutes a sin. I believe Moses was sinless even though He murdered that man because that is what Baha'u'llah wrote in The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 53-58.

Redemptionsong said:
To say that all men die is an observable truth. The scriptures tell us that the reason for death is sin. Other creatures do not have the human capacity for knowing good and evil, but sin affects all creation.

The scriptures tell us the reason for spiritual death is sin. The scriptures do not tell us the reason for physical death is sin. The reason for physical death is that humans were created mortal.

Redemptionsong said:
Jesus said, 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' Jesus was born of Mary, born of the flesh. He was also born of God's Spirit at baptism. So, by the time he ministered, Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God. The thing that distinguishes Jesus Christ from all others born of the Holy Spirit is 'measure'. Jesus Christ received the Holy Spirit 'without measure' because his faith was perfect. All others receive the Holy Spirit by measure because their faith, or lack of, places a limit on what they receive.

Jesus was born of God's Spirit but Jesus was not fully man and fully God. The latter is a Church doctrine, nothing that is in the scriptures. Jesus' faith was perfect but so was the faith of the other Manifestations of God. God did not set any limit upon what they received.

Redemptionsong said:
Only the faith of Jesus Christ was perfect, and this makes his words and actions perfect. In turn, this makes his death a perfect offering to God, as a lamb without blemish. As an acceptable offering, God raised Jesus from the dead. No other man, or offering, was acceptable to a perfect God.

You are free to believe that if you want to and you will, because you are a Christian. Jesus was not an 'offering' for sin, He chose to sacrifice Himself for the sins and inequities of all mankind.

I do not believe that God raised Jesus from the dead but no matter, because it would not matter if Jesus rose anyway since a body is just a body and it is not the person himself. Why anyone would make such a big deal out of a fleshy body coming back to life is beyond me and it runs completely contrary to what Jesus taught.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

rational experiences · May 28, 2021

All humans know we are equal. We had two human parents. They have sex. We the baby to adult humans grow live die.

Conscious awareness says so we never survived the God manifestation.

To manifest means we came from somewhere else.

The eternal.spirit the answer. Consciousness said we never died. We still are one as one part of ourselves which God separated us from. The eternal. Not God.

I was taught by a being communicating no gender itself unconditional acceptance of my life. My physical body changed I knew I was loved cried and begged it not to leave me.

Eternal memory proved itself in my life. I am supported to argue.
The attacked life not expected by a scientist. A human. Was not theoried for gain to be life attacked.

Ignored by satanic occult theists today.

We did get attacked.

The story taught was a huge assessment said no man is god.
The title Jesus man attacked said why God as it's son had harmed life.

Rhetoric. To state status what God owned that man as a self never owned.

The teaching.

The statement says without argument God hurt life.

So science had to quote what God was and why god caused the attack artificially as God supported natural life.

Common sense.

Condition life manifested spiritually into an equal state. Clear not burning gas. That gas burning also. Water oxygen with microbes present.

Separate statements. Not any one statement.

Why we have water microbes inside our body.

Parents had manifested. From the eternal. Pre owned spirit body. God O was just mass.

Why phenomena is involved in our life.

Life equal as mass was equal.

One status not present a machine.
A machine owns no self reaction it has to be forced controlled.

Scientist caused the artificial attack. Natural attacked us.

Exactly the reason why it categorically stated no man is God.

Man the scientist blamed God. When God was natural and nobody but his own man agreed men became the scientist machine changer.

rational experiences · May 28, 2021

Then a scientist medical biologist genesis advice a human says how do I explain life sacrificed.

Seeing DNA is present expressed as a human owner of human DNA

DNA not being separate from human form.

Healer psychic talked about it inside the human body.

Unlike science studying it abstracted today.

The difference between a healer review to doctor scientist.

Machines.

The life teacher said the ovah ova ovary had lost its genetic presence in the human mother's body DNA.

Gone. Baby in human life sacrificed removed spiritually in Moses documented attacked life irradiation pyramid temple.

By water conditions law water was changed in nature the humanity said so we became genetic changed and then was linked to Egyptians using technology.

Via the genetic attack.

Losses of life allowed us irradiated to hear the father God voice advice. Against Egyptian scientists harming life.

Real.

Father human had left spiritually died had been removed out of DNA had died his voice recorded image recorded told his human children advice was real.

Atmosphere records lived life experience. Father's in many nations shares advice as life dies. I heard hear them speak to each other. All owning life's regrets.

I love all my father's. Hence so should you their children.

DNA returned healed in the mother human life miraculously as God heavens changed. Exactly how it was taught. God heavens healed life cell by conditions.

Water from ice the newly born God spirit each twelve end of year cycle cooled water. Allowed microbe energy to live and no longer carbonized irradiated it as wood state.

Microbiome is bio food energy.

Looking back human theist advice of the nature body. Our bio cell nothing like the garden nature. Obvious. Wood carbon content.

So the medical human assessment thanked natural earth God for its life miracles. Gratefulness of life a human ceremony to remember be grateful.

How the God state healed the female DNA baby life continuance. A miracle they said of life and our human mother.

Actually as a medical science assessment.

Ignored as its relevance.

Seeing the irradiation second shroud proven attack made us leave our minds consciously as live expressed seen as the dark ages.

We told our truth. How it is read today is not our truth. Warned.

Praise Jah · May 29, 2021

Teritos said:
God in the OT,
I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus in the NT,
I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

The title "the first and the last" is most likely the highest title of God and Jesus uses this title for Himself, for he is God.

Jesus also uses this title in Revelation 22:13,
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

If he is not God, why does he use that title?

The title "the Alpha and the Omega" applies only to Jehovah God. Before him there was no almighty God and after him there will be none. (Revelation 1:8) (Revelation 21:6) (Revelation 22:13)

At (Isaiah 44:6) Jehovah describes his own position as the first and the last because before him there was no almighty God and after him there will be none. Jehovah is the one and only Almighty God.

At (Revelation 1:17-18) Jesus presents himself as "the First and the Last." Here Jesus is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. Instead Jesus is using a title that was bestowed upon him by Jehovah God and it's a title that calls attention to Jesus' unique resurrection.

Jesus' resurrection was unique because he was the first human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life and the last one to be so resurrected by Jehovah God personally. (Colossians 1:18) (Acts 26:23) (Revelation 2:8)

Trailblazer · May 29, 2021

Praise Jah said:
Jesus' resurrection was unique because he was the first human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life

So what do you think happened to the souls (spirits) of everyone who lived before Jesus came to earth, and where do you think the souls (spirits) of people who have died since Jesus walked the earth have gone, and where do you think the souls (spirits) of people are going when they die now?

For example, where is the soul (spirit) Moses and where are the other prophets and holy ones?
How do you explain this verse:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Praise Jah · Jun 8, 2021

Trailblazer said:
So what do you think happened to the souls (spirits) of everyone who lived before Jesus came to earth, and where do you think the souls (spirits) of people who have died since Jesus walked the earth have gone, and where do you think the souls (spirits) of people are going when they die now?

For example, where is the soul (spirit) Moses and where are the other prophets and holy ones?
How do you explain this verse:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Soul and spirit refer to two different things.

In short, "soul" in the Bible is used to describe either a person (1 Peter 3:20); or an animal; or the life that a person or animal has.

The scriptures state that a soul is mortal, meaning that it dies. Mankind dies because of inherited sin. (Ezekiel 18:4) (Ezekiel 18:20) (Romans 5:12)

In the context of life and death, the term"spirit" used in the Bible is the life force or breath that animates all living creatures. Just as a radio needs electricity to function, the body needs spirit, or life force/breath, in order to live. (Genesis 2:7) The body without spirit is dead (James 2:26)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 is speaking about man's death. The dust of the body returns to the ground from which it came (Genesis 3:19) and the spirit, or life force/breath of life, returns to the one who gave it. (Genesis 2:7)

So, for someone who dies, any hope of future life rests with Jehovah God. Only by God's power can the spirit, or life force, be given back so that the person may live again.

All of mankind inherited sin from Adam. So, when we die we return to the dust. This includes those who lived before Jesus' ransom sacrifice and also those living after it.

But Jesus' ransom opened the way for two different kinds of resurrection. One type is a resurrection to everlasting life on a Paradise earth. A great crowd of people without number will receive this type of resurrection.

The other kind of resurrection is to life in heaven and only a small group, 144,000, receive this type of resurrection and only God chooses who those 144,000 are.

Trailblazer · Jun 8, 2021

Praise Jah said:
Soul and spirit refer to two different things.

In short, "soul" in the Bible is used to describe either a person (1 Peter 3:20); or an animal; or the life that a person or animal has.

The scriptures state that a soul is mortal, meaning that it dies. Mankind dies because of inherited sin. (Ezekiel 18:4) (Ezekiel 18:20) (Romans 5:12)

In the context of life and death, the term"spirit" used in the Bible is the life force or breath that animates all living creatures. Just as a radio needs electricity to function, the body needs spirit, or life force/breath, in order to live. (Genesis 2:7) The body without spirit is dead (James 2:26)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 is speaking about man's death. The dust of the body returns to the ground from which it came (Genesis 3:19) and the spirit, or life force/breath of life, returns to the one who gave it. (Genesis 2:7)

So, for someone who dies, any hope of future life rests with Jehovah God. Only by God's power can the spirit, or life force, be given back so that the person may live again.

All of mankind inherited sin from Adam. So, when we die we return to the dust. This includes those who lived before Jesus' ransom sacrifice and also those living after it.

But Jesus' ransom opened the way for two different kinds of resurrection. One type is a resurrection to everlasting life on a Paradise earth. A great crowd of people without number will receive this type of resurrection.

The other kind of resurrection is to life in heaven and only a small group, 144,000, receive this type of resurrection and only God chooses who those 144,000 are.

With all due respect, those are your beliefs, not mine, and I can take the same exact Bible verses and interpret them differently than you do such that they mean something different.

The human soul is eternal, it cannot ever die so whenever the Bible says the soul dies it means that soul does not get eternal life. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. means that soul will suffer spiritual death so it will not have eternal life, but that soul will still continue to exist in the spiritual world and be distant from God, because all souls are immortal. Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: means that by sin people became spiritually dead, which is a state of the soul, not of the body. It has nothing to do with the physical body which once dead remains dead in the grave.

Eternal life is not living forever in a physical body, it s nearness to God in our hearts. Jesus bestowed eternal life because those who believed in Jesus were near to God in their heart.

Humankind inherited the propensity to sin from Adam, but not because Adam ate an apple from a tree. Rather, when Adam was born he entered into the world of good and evil, the material world... The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and instead have the propensity to sin.

Jesus saved us from our sin nature in the following way:

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

There is no resurrection of physical bodies to everlasting life on a Paradise earth. Earth was never intended to be a Paradise because no physical world can ever be a Paradise. Moreover, God does not rewind the clock and take people back to the days of Eden, not that they ever existed, because the story of Adam and Eve is just an allegory.

In short, I believe what you believe is a fantasy but you will probably not realize that until you die and pass to the spiritual realm (heaven). I cannot say what will happen after that, only God knows.

Praise Jah · Jun 12, 2021

Trailblazer said:
With all due respect, those are your beliefs, not mine, and I can take the same exact Bible verses and interpret them differently than you do such that they mean something different.

The human soul is eternal, it cannot ever die so whenever the Bible says the soul dies it means that soul does not get eternal life. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. means that soul will suffer spiritual death so it will not have eternal life, but that soul will still continue to exist in the spiritual world and be distant from God, because all souls are immortal. Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: means that by sin people became spiritually dead, which is a state of the soul, not of the body. It has nothing to do with the physical body which once dead remains dead in the grave.

Eternal life is not living forever in a physical body, it s nearness to God in our hearts. Jesus bestowed eternal life because those who believed in Jesus were near to God in their heart.

Humankind inherited the propensity to sin from Adam, but not because Adam ate an apple from a tree. Rather, when Adam was born he entered into the world of good and evil, the material world... The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and instead have the propensity to sin.

Jesus saved us from our sin nature in the following way:

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

There is no resurrection of physical bodies to everlasting life on a Paradise earth. Earth was never intended to be a Paradise because no physical world can ever be a Paradise. Moreover, God does not rewind the clock and take people back to the days of Eden, not that they ever existed, because the story of Adam and Eve is just an allegory.

In short, I believe what you believe is a fantasy but you will probably not realize that until you die and pass to the spiritual realm (heaven). I cannot say what will happen after that, only God knows.

Satan, the father of the lie, told Eve she would not die if she ate of the fruit of the tree (btw, the Bible does not say it was an apple). Satan was

Trailblazer said:
With all due respect, those are your beliefs, not mine, and I can take the same exact Bible verses and interpret them differently than you do such that they mean something different.

The human soul is eternal, it cannot ever die so whenever the Bible says the soul dies it means that soul does not get eternal life. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. means that soul will suffer spiritual death so it will not have eternal life, but that soul will still continue to exist in the spiritual world and be distant from God, because all souls are immortal. Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: means that by sin people became spiritually dead, which is a state of the soul, not of the body. It has nothing to do with the physical body which once dead remains dead in the grave.

Eternal life is not living forever in a physical body, it s nearness to God in our hearts. Jesus bestowed eternal life because those who believed in Jesus were near to God in their heart.

Humankind inherited the propensity to sin from Adam, but not because Adam ate an apple from a tree. Rather, when Adam was born he entered into the world of good and evil, the material world... The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and instead have the propensity to sin.

Jesus saved us from our sin nature in the following way:

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

There is no resurrection of physical bodies to everlasting life on a Paradise earth. Earth was never intended to be a Paradise because no physical world can ever be a Paradise. Moreover, God does not rewind the clock and take people back to the days of Eden, not that they ever existed, because the story of Adam and Eve is just an allegory.

In short, I believe what you believe is a fantasy but you will probably not realize that until you die and pass to the spiritual realm (heaven). I cannot say what will happen after that, only God knows.

God cannot lie. (Titus 1:2)

God tells us that at death the person ceases to exist. There is nothing that survives the death of the body. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) (Ecclesiastes 9:10) (Isaiah 38:18)

Satan, the father of the lie, was the first to contradict God on the subject of death. Satan's lies regarding death continue in all its variations in this Satanic system. (Genesis 3:4) (John 8:44) (1 John 5:19)

Christian denominations that believe in an immortal soul don't get this teaching from the Bible. The origin of the body-soul dichotomy originated with ancient Greek philosophy. God does not condone merging his teachings with human philosophy. (Colossians 2:8)

A physical body is not a sin. God created physical bodies and God is Holy and does not sin. (Deuteronomy 32:4) (Psalms 104:24)

Yes, there were resurrections of physical bodies in the Bible. Lazarus, being just one out of a total of eight such resurrection accounts. (John 11:38-44)

Jesus told his followers to pray for God's Kingdom to come and for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:10) What is God's will for the earth?

God's will is that righteous, obedient human beings enjoy everlasting life on a peaceful Paradise earth. Jehovah will accomplish his will through his Kingdom. Nobody can stop Jehovah's will from taking place. Everything Jehovah says comes true! (Genesis 1:28) (Isaiah 55:11)

John1.12 · Jun 12, 2021

Trailblazer said:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Imo, that verse cannot be about Jesus since Jesus never promised to come back to earth, but rather said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6

It was God that was to come quickly, not Jesus. The question is how God would come.

12¶And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14¶Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16¶I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17¶And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18¶For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20¶He which testifieth these things SAY ,SURELY I COME QUICKLY . Amen. Even so, come, LORD JESUS

21¶The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Trailblazer · Jun 12, 2021

Praise Jah said:
Satan, the father of the lie, told Eve she would not die if she ate of the fruit of the tree (btw, the Bible does not say it was an apple).

Can you quote the Bible verses that say that?

Praise Jah said:
God cannot lie. (Titus 1:2)

God tells us that at death the person ceases to exist. There is nothing that survives the death of the body. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) (Ecclesiastes 9:10) (Isaiah 38:18)

These verses are referring to the dead physical body and the physical grave. When the body dies, it knows nothing because the brain ceases to function. However, the soul leaves the body and takes on a new form, a spiritual body and so it has a new life in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

Praise Jah said:
Christian denominations that believe in an immortal soul don't get this teaching from the Bible. The origin of the body-soul dichotomy originated with ancient Greek philosophy. God does not condone merging his teachings with human philosophy. (Colossians 2:8)

I do not derive my beliefs about the immortal soul from philosophy or from the Bible. I gte them from my own religion, the Baha'i Faith.

You can cite Bible verses till the cows come home b and like all Christians you can use verses to try to prove what you believe is right. Like all Christians you believe the verses mean what you have interpreted them to mean, in order to support what you already believe.

Praise Jah said:
A physical body is not a sin. God created physical bodies and God is Holy and does not sin. (Deuteronomy 32:4) (Psalms 104:24)

A physical body is not a sin but it is what causes us to sin. The soul cannot sin unless it is connected to a physical body. Moreover, the flesh profits nothing. It is ironic that Christians make a big deal out of the fleshy body rising from the grave given what Jesus said about it.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Praise Jah said:
Yes, there were resurrections of physical bodies in the Bible. Lazarus, being just one out of a total of eight such resurrection accounts. (John 11:38-44)

You are free to believe that if you want to, but I do nit believe all the stories in the Bible are literally true. Many of them have symbolic significance. Again, you worship a physical body which is not who we are. We are souls that function through a physical body for a short life span on earth.

Praise Jah said:
Jesus told his followers to pray for God's Kingdom to come and for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:10) What is God's will for the earth?

God's will is that righteous, obedient human beings enjoy everlasting life on a peaceful Paradise earth. Jehovah will accomplish his will through his Kingdom. Nobody can stop Jehovah's will from taking place. Everything Jehovah says comes true! (Genesis 1:28) (Isaiah 55:11)

God's will is that humans build the kingdom of God on earth so that living people and future generations of living people can live in peace and harmony. God's will is not for dead people to rise from their graves and live on earth forever. That is a fantasy and it can in no way can be supported by the Bible unless you twist the true meaning of Bible verses to suit your fancy.

God is not going to accomplish anything, humans are going to build the Kingdom of God, also known as the New World Order, on earth by following the blueprint instructions laid out by Baha'u'llah in His Writings.

Toward a New World Order?

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

Trailblazer · Jun 12, 2021

John1.12 said:
12¶And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14¶Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16¶I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17¶And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18¶For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20¶He which testifieth these things SAY ,SURELY I COME QUICKLY . Amen. Even so, come, LORD JESUS

21¶The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

The Book of Revelation is not about Jesus since Jesus ever planned or promised to return:

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

The Book of Revelation is about a different man with a new name, Baha'u'llah.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

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Regarding the Book of Revelation; I do not spend my time interpreting it because others have done so for me. Baha’is have written entire books about it and the four Primary Figures of the Baha’i Faith have interpreted many of the verses in the Book of Revelation.

Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

“First and foremost, the four Baha’i Primary-Figures play Revelation’s main roles interpretively. Baha’u’llah plays most, the Bab several, and ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi some. Moreover, their Writings interpret symbols in Revelation, or ones specific to it, along with many of its verses. Baha’u’llah and ‘Abdu’l-Baha read Revelation in the Van Dyck Arabic Bible, and Shoghi Effendi read it in the King James English Bible.

• Baha’u’llah interprets specific Revelation symbols and verses in his Gems of Divine Mysteries. In his Book of Certitude he expansively interprets other Revelation symbols, such as Angel, Beginning and Ending, blood, bride, city, clothes, clouds, dawn-star or day-star, door, earth/world, earthquake, eye, First and Last, gemstone, hand, judgment, King of kings, lamp, life and death, light, moon, ocean/sea, oil, ointment, oppression/hardship, prison, rain, resurrection, return, river, robe, rod, smoke, son of man, sky/heaven, spirit, star, sun, sword, Temple, throne, tomb, tree, trumpet, warning, and water. The verses and symbols explained by Baha’u’llah involve 52% (209 of 404) of the verses of Revelation.

• The Bab addresses Revelation little and then only indirectly. He wrote those twenty letters that helped to identify the first 20 elder-founders, and he interprets radiance of the sun for Baha’u’llah.[4]‑S

• ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi interpret many specific Revelation verses and their symbols. In Some Answered Questions ‘Abdu’l-Baha addresses all Revelation Chapter 11 and much of Chapters 12 and 21. In God Passes By and Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi expands the meanings of many verses. The verses and symbols explained by ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi involve 30% (121 of 404) of the verses of Revelation.

Overall, Baha’i Writings interpret some or all of 64% (258 of 404) of the verses of Revelation. Adding in verses containing John’s internal interpretations raises the total to 72% (291 of 404) of the verses of Revelation. Since each verse may be interpreted a little or a lot, verse-counting is a crude measure of interpretation but is better than none.

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi · Jun 12, 2021

Teritos said:
God in the OT,
I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus in the NT,
I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

The title "the first and the last" is most likely the highest title of God and Jesus uses this title for Himself, for he is God.

Jesus also uses this title in Revelation 22:13,
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

If he is not God, why does he use that title?

As someone who is outside the Christian faith, I speculate this kind of question comes up when you add another god figure to a monotheistic religion and forget to hire an editor to make sure you have no plot holes.

John1.12 · Jun 12, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The Book of Revelation is not about Jesus since Jesus ever planned or promised to return:

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

The Book of Revelation is about a different man with a new name, Baha'u'llah.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Regarding the Book of Revelation; I do not spend my time interpreting it because others have done so for me. Baha’is have written entire books about it and the four Primary Figures of the Baha’i Faith have interpreted many of the verses in the Book of Revelation.

Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

“First and foremost, the four Baha’i Primary-Figures play Revelation’s main roles interpretively. Baha’u’llah plays most, the Bab several, and ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi some. Moreover, their Writings interpret symbols in Revelation, or ones specific to it, along with many of its verses. Baha’u’llah and ‘Abdu’l-Baha read Revelation in the Van Dyck Arabic Bible, and Shoghi Effendi read it in the King James English Bible.

• Baha’u’llah interprets specific Revelation symbols and verses in his Gems of Divine Mysteries. In his Book of Certitude he expansively interprets other Revelation symbols, such as Angel, Beginning and Ending, blood, bride, city, clothes, clouds, dawn-star or day-star, door, earth/world, earthquake, eye, First and Last, gemstone, hand, judgment, King of kings, lamp, life and death, light, moon, ocean/sea, oil, ointment, oppression/hardship, prison, rain, resurrection, return, river, robe, rod, smoke, son of man, sky/heaven, spirit, star, sun, sword, Temple, throne, tomb, tree, trumpet, warning, and water. The verses and symbols explained by Baha’u’llah involve 52% (209 of 404) of the verses of Revelation.

• The Bab addresses Revelation little and then only indirectly. He wrote those twenty letters that helped to identify the first 20 elder-founders, and he interprets radiance of the sun for Baha’u’llah.[4]‑S

• ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi interpret many specific Revelation verses and their symbols. In Some Answered Questions ‘Abdu’l-Baha addresses all Revelation Chapter 11 and much of Chapters 12 and 21. In God Passes By and Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi expands the meanings of many verses. The verses and symbols explained by ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi involve 30% (121 of 404) of the verses of Revelation.

Overall, Baha’i Writings interpret some or all of 64% (258 of 404) of the verses of Revelation. Adding in verses containing John’s internal interpretations raises the total to 72% (291 of 404) of the verses of Revelation. Since each verse may be interpreted a little or a lot, verse-counting is a crude measure of interpretation but is better than none.

Your interpreting everything through this one error you have been taught. That " Jesus won't return " . But literally the whole NT has many verses in each book / epistles to the contrary. This is so outlandish its crazy . Like literally crazy .
Most of the epistles are about / reference Jesus return. First in the air ( rapture )
1 thes 4
4For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15¶For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

then his feet literally touch the mount of olives .
Zechariah 14

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Trailblazer · Jun 12, 2021

John1.12 said:
Your interpreting everything through this one error you have been taught. That " Jesus won't return " . But literally the whole NT has many verses in each book / epistles to the contrary. This is so outlandish its crazy . Like literally crazy .

No, that is what you are doing, interpreting everything through the error you have been taught by Christianity.
There is not one single verse in the entire New Testament where Jesus promised to return to earth...
All if what you believe is a Church teaching which is based upon a misinterpretation and this a misunderstanding of what the verses really mean. You can cite verses till the cows come home but that won't change anything because they are not about the same Jesus returning since Jesus is never going to return.

What Christians believe about Jesus returning is so outlandish its crazy.

Trailblazer · Jun 12, 2021

John1.12 said:
Most of the epistles are about / reference Jesus return. First in the air ( rapture )
1 thes 4
4For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15¶For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

then his feet literally touch the mount of olives .
Zechariah 14

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

No, all of these verses are about Baha'u'llah, and if you ever bothered to read and understand how they were fulfilled by Him you would know the truth. Christ was not returning in the air but He did come in the clouds, not the physical clouds, but clouded by man's ignorance which acted as a veil, a cloud. Clouds and sir are symbolic, not literal air and clouds.

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