Were the four canonical gospels in the New Testament revealed?

firedragon said:

Of course. You dont have to repeat it. Everyone knows that Effendi said very clearly the Quran is Gods revelation.

Bahais a lot of times go against Effendi and even Bahaullah when debating to serve their needs. So that's why they go on to say things like the Quran and the Bible are the same. Which is the reason I opened a new thread. So no need to repeat this again and again.



So your science is "Because we say so" when deriving which verse is authentic. So you pick and choose a prophecy or two to support Bahaullah and claim that is authentic. But have no methodology whatsoever.

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You simply quote only part of my posts. If you read all of my post, the matter should be more clear I think.

InvestigateTruth said:

It was already quoted from Shoghi Effendi that the Bible is not the same authority.

In Bahai view, The Bible is truth as a whole. But it is not like every word in it is accurate.

Either way, what matters is in Bahai view, the Bible is legitimate and trustworthy.



You can think of it similar to authentic Hadithes.
Hadithes, if authentic, are a guidance. They are not considered a direct word of God, but, still guidance and truth.
Hope it is more clear.

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Lol. So you say it is similar to ahadith? I will open another thread for that. Because you Bahai's keep bringing in all kinds of analogies you have no clue of and go on that footpath because you cannot justify your position. It is a need you have to bring in either the Quran or hadith or something.

Q: Why is the Bible valid to Bahai's? Can you give proper reasons?
A: The same as Quran
A2: The Same as Hadith.

New thread to address your NEW ARGUMENT.

InvestigateTruth said:

You simply quote only part of my posts. If you read all of my post, the matter should be more clear I think.

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Oh I did. I will not quote irrelevant preaching.

So you have no response?

firedragon said:

1. So who said there was a text which is the result of revelation of Jesus?
2. Also, by this statement do you mean Jesus revealed or God revealed through Jesus? You said "of Jesus" which is ambiguous.

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As I explained, similar to Hadithes in Islam.
If Muhammad said something, and it was recorded fairly correctly, would you consider that a guidance? Would you not consider that saying, in reality originated from knowledge of God?

firedragon said:

Lol. So you say it is similar to ahadith? I will open another thread for that. Because you Bahai's keep bringing in all kinds of analogies you have no clue of and go on that footpath because you cannot justify your position. It is a need you have to bring in either the Quran or hadith or something.

Q: Why is the Bible valid to Bahai's? Can you give proper reasons?
A: The same as Quran
A2: The Same as Hadith.

New thread to address your NEW ARGUMENT.

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Why is it funny?

Jesus was a Manifestation of God in Bahai view. His disciples were chosen by God.
So, they knew the truth. So, even the Gospels are not a direct revelation of God, yet, they originated from those, who were given knowledge and wisdom by God.

InvestigateTruth said:

Why is it funny?

Jesus was a Manifestation of God in Bahai view. His disciples were chosen by God.
So, they knew the truth. So, even the Gospels are not a direct revelation of God, yet, they originated from those, who were given knowledge and wisdom by God.

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Are the Gospels the same as Ahadith? Another Bahai claim.

InvestigateTruth said:

Why is it funny?

Jesus was a Manifestation of God in Bahai view. His disciples were chosen by God.
So, they knew the truth. So, even the Gospels are not a direct revelation of God, yet, they originated from those, who were given knowledge and wisdom by God.

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Absolutely irrelevant response.

Anyway, you said "they originated from those, who were given knowledge and wisdom by God".

Can you name the "those" you refer to? And what evidence do you have that "those" are who you named, and they were inspired by God, and they wrote the Gospels?

Please go ahead.

firedragon said:

Absolutely irrelevant response.

Anyway, you said "they originated from those, who were given knowledge and wisdom by God".

Can you name the "those" you refer to? And what evidence do you have that "those" are who you named, and they were inspired by God, and they wrote the Gospels?

Please go ahead.

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As I said, it originated from Jesus and His disciples. I cannot prove it. But this is the Bahai view. It ultimately depends on the belief that Jesus was Messiah and sent by God. Since Bahais believe Jesus was Messiah, and sent by God, we believe it was all planned by God that a legitimate Book be written as a guidance for humanity. This is a belief, and of course you are free to reject or accept it.
If we go down this road, we have to first ask, what evidence is there that Jesus was sent by God, or even God exist. Hope it is more clear now.

InvestigateTruth said:

As I said, it originated from Jesus and His disciples. I cannot prove it. But this is the Bahai view. It ultimately depends on the belief that Jesus was Messiah and sent by God. Since Bahais believe Jesus was Messiah, and sent by God, we believe it was all planned by God that a legitimate Book be written as a guidance for humanity. This is a belief, and of course you are free to reject or accept it.
If we go down this road, we have to first ask, what evidence is there that Jesus was sent by God, or even God exist. Hope it is more clear now.

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Because we say so?

When you dont have anything valid to say its "Because we say so"

InvestigateTruth said:

As I explained, similar to Hadithes in Islam.

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Are the Gospels the same as Ahadith? Another Bahai claim.

firedragon said:

In this topic which sprung up from another thread, I would like to see the evidence to why you would think the four canonical gospels are revealed by God.

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Hi,
Saying "revealed" implies that at one stage the Gospels were hidden. Since this was never the case, your question is not clear.
There are things that were hidden that later were revealed, the Gospel accounts is not amongts them.

Neuropteron said:

Hi,
Saying "revealed" implies that at one stage the Gospels were hidden. Since this was never the case, your question is not clear.
There are things that were hidden that later were revealed, the Gospel accounts is not amongts them.

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Do you believe gospel accounts always existed?

adrian009 said:

Clearly not, but they convey spiritual truths revealed by God through Jesus.

One can not prove the Words of Jesus contained in the Gospels were Revealed by God anymore than the Words Spoken by Muhammad and recorded in the Quran can be proved to be Revealed by Allah.

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Since you keep saying that Bahai's don't equate the Quran and the Bible, this is one of the examples. Always a Tu Quoque fallacy. Hope you understand.

firedragon said:

Well, you must understand that it is not a valid proof for me. Lol. That might sound a little bad. I dont know really how else to say it.

What you have given is a faith statement. Because Matthew 7 says about good fruit, it is Gods word. First, one has to establish Matthew 7 is in order to hold on to it.

I hope you understand.

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The exact same goes for the entire quran.
Just because it is said to be from god, doesn't mean that it is.

When I read a book, said scientific in certain field, I personally have no reason, at all, knowing (or searching about) who wrote it. I just see what I 'may' learn from it as ideas which could be useful to me if applied, when necessary, in my life.

Similarly, when I read a book, said holy (inspired from Heaven), I just try to find out if what is written on it suits the deep nature I am made of or not. Therefore, anytime I read that I am created to obey a certain 'heavenly' law, I know it is has nothing to do in my reality. (After all, It is enough for me to obey an earthly law ).

To my big surprise, I found out that Jesus Christ only didn't bring any imposed rules to be obeyed or observed (as in the army). So I knew that the ultimate source of Jesus message (which is about Love not Law) is of my Creator (The Will that knows in advance all about my created nature). Also, many sayings that are referred to Jesus (printed on the today's Gospel) helped me discover with time many crucial natural truths about how the world is made/defined and how it is supposed to run in reality. (For instance, in our days, no one dares, has an interest or is allowed to... reveal these truths 'openly and clearly' as Jesus does on the Gospel.) This is why I didn't present myself as a Christian because I have no reason to have faith in Jesus since I know Jesus (real or a character in a novel) as I know myself.

But it is just me... who doesn't waste his time in searching in the human history what can prove if someone or something is true/real or not. But let us recall that learning and accepting scientific ideas are also not based on history but on one's actual observations/experiences and logical reasoning.

Neuropteron said:

Hi,
Saying "revealed" implies that at one stage the Gospels were hidden. Since this was never the case, your question is not clear.
There are things that were hidden that later were revealed, the Gospel accounts is not amongts them.

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Hi, thanks for clarifying. Reveal can also be used as communicating or imparting.
The whole bible is a revelation.

firedragon said:

In this topic which sprung up from another thread, I would like to see the evidence to why you would think the four canonical gospels are revealed by God.

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Is there even one skerrick of evidence that the gospels are revealed (as distinct from inspired)?

alypius said:

Is there even one skerrick of evidence that the gospels are revealed (as distinct from inspired)?

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No

alypius said:

Is there even one skerrick of evidence that the gospels are revealed (as distinct from inspired)?

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Do I hear that one shouldn't expect learning anything useful to him from a story if there is no sign about its origin?
I mean, discovering an idea is true/useful (or not) has nothing to do with its origin. After all, this is how I also discovered what we may call scientific useful ideas.

InvestigateTruth said:

It was already quoted from Shoghi Effendi that the Bible is not the same authority.

In Bahai view, The Bible is truth as a whole. But it is not like every word in it is accurate.

Either way, what matters is in Bahai view, the Bible is legitimate and trustworthy.

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So, the Bible and the NT doesn't have the same authority as the Quran. But they are trustworthy and legitimate? Even though every word is not accurate?

InvestigateTruth said:

Jesus was a Manifestation of God in Bahai view. His disciples were chosen by God.
So, they knew the truth. So, even the Gospels are not a direct revelation of God, yet, they originated from those, who were given knowledge and wisdom by God.

Click to expand...

So the words of Jesus came from God. His disciples, who were chosen by God, listened to those words. But were the disciples that wrote the gospels and the epistles the same disciples that heard the words directly from Jesus? Or, did some of them hear it from the original disciples then write it down? And how about Paul? Where did he get his information? Since he wrote most of the NT.

I can see why Christians will say that God, Jesus, and/or the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the NT, but why would a Baha'i? And I don't think Baha'is do trust it as written. It needs some interpreting and some explaining. And without that interpreting from Baha'u'llah, and some from Mohammad, the Bab, Abdul Baha' and Shoghi Effendi, I don't think Baha'is would have come up with the "correct" meanings of the things written in the Bible. But until Mohammad, Christians got things wrong. And even after Mohammad, they still had lots of things wrong. It wasn't until nearly 2000 years later, with the coming of the Baha'is, did the correct interpretation of the Bible and NT take place.

For all those years the belief and practices based on what Christians thought the Bible and the NT meant, were wrong. How'd that happen? From what Baha'is tell me, it is because the Christians put their trust in the words being too literal. How ignorant of them. They should have known that God inspired the writers to make up allegorical stories. So sure, for Baha'is, the Bible is trustworthy and legitimate... if you have the correct interpretation... the Baha'i interpretation. All others are wrong. And, as we've been debating for a while, was Jesus crucified? Baha'is say "Yes." Did he physically rise from the dead? Baha'is say, "No."

So without knowing the Baha'i "correct" interpretation, the Bible is useless and will lead people into having all kinds of false beliefs. Beliefs based on the Bible, maybe even a literal interpretation of what is said in the Bible. But that's not the real meaning. The real meaning is the mystical, symbolic meaning given in the Baha'i writings. And still, how do we know this is the true meaning? Because Baha'u'llah says so.