There's Not An Iota Of Evidence The Apostles Existed

TagliatelliMonster · Jun 11, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The Bible is the evidence that Christians use to support their claims about Jesus. Jesus made claims in the Bible but the Bible is not the claim, it is just the only evidence Christians have to support their beliefs.

This makes no sense.

People made claims about jesus.
People then wrote those claims down.
These writings were then collected into what we know today as the bible.

At no point did these claims stop being claims, merely because they got collected in a book.

TagliatelliMonster · Jun 11, 2021

1213 said:
Bible is also a historical record, you apparently just don’t believe it is correct. But, if it is true they didn’t exist, why do you think we have the Bible? If they didn’t exist, why did Rome turn into the Christianity?

If Hercules didn't exist, why did the ancient Greeks tell stories about him?

night912 · Jun 11, 2021

Sandra Jayne said:
You are wrong, plenty of evidence if you choose to look for it, even references to Jesus by other religious sects and 'politicians' of that time talking about the brother of James i'e Jesus.

People are too ready to make sweeping claims and statements when the have done no research on the topic themselves.

So what you're saying is that after doing your research, you've discovered that Jesus the brother of James, was one of the apostles of Jesus Christ? Can you show us your research where you found that evidence.

ElishaElijah · Jun 11, 2021

night912 said:
Are you sure you really want to gamble right now

What’s the gamble for me?
“And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭5:11-13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

night912 · Jun 11, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
What’s the gamble for me?
“And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭5:11-13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

You're gambling on whether or not you have the Son of God. I'm just pointing it out, it's your choice if you want to gamble. But placing a bet on you going being saved because you believe that you are getting saved is a big gamble. Just remember that you buying a lottery ticket and believe with high confident that you are going to win the jackpot doesn't mean that you will win. But no worries, it's only eternal punishment nothing to be scared of, right?

night912 · Jun 11, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The Bible is the evidence that Christians use to support their claims about Jesus. Jesus made claims in the Bible but the Bible is not the claim, it is just the only evidence Christians have to support their beliefs.

TagliatelliMonster said:
This makes no sense.

People made claims about jesus.
People then wrote those claims down.
These writings were then collected into what we know today as the bible.

At no point did these claims stop being claims, merely because they got collected in a book.

I would have to agree with TagliatelliMonster. It's illogical.

Twilight Hue · Jun 11, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
It's easy to throw charges around. That's all Christians do when they have no evidence to back up their claims. Why don't you prove I'm wrong instead. Quote some historians who say oral traditions are evidence.

Or the accuracy of oral tradition.

Some really think and believe that oral tradition is accurate and precise.

TagliatelliMonster · Jun 11, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
I realized i can not speak for other people or other faiths than the one i hold. Speaking for others would be false speech

It doesn't matter what the beliefs are.

The question is only about the practice of pretending that assumptions and faith based claims, are the same as facts.

That doesn't even need to be religious in nature.

I could assume / believe on faith that an invisible dragon stands beside me and talk with you about it as if it is an uncontestable fact.

Surely you agree that pretending that assumptions are facts, is an intellectually dishonest thing to do?

ElishaElijah · Jun 11, 2021

night912 said:
You're gambling on whether or not you have the Son of God. I'm just pointing it out, it's your choice if you want to gamble. But placing a bet on you going being saved because you believe that you are getting saved is a big gamble. Just remember that you buying a lottery ticket and believe with high confident that you are going to win the jackpot doesn't mean that you will win. But no worries, it's only eternal punishment nothing to be scared of, right?

I’m not gambling like you say.
For example when a guy says he is going to marry the lady he is dating but doesn’t give her an engagement ring or plan the wedding then she is gambling and her hope is flimsy. But the lady who gets the engagement ring, the wedding date, and part of the planning is not gambling.
I have received the engagement ring, the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of my inheritance. The wedding is coming and preparations are being made, Jesus is coming and said be ready, but you won’t know the exact day. So I have the guarantee, am watching and waiting.

night912 · Jun 11, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
I’m not gambling like you say.
For example when a guy says he is going to marry the lady he is dating but doesn’t give her an engagement ring or plan the wedding then she is gambling and her hope is flimsy. But the lady who gets the engagement ring, the wedding date, and part of the planning is not gambling.
I have received the engagement ring, the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of my inheritance. The wedding is coming and preparations are being made, Jesus is coming and said be ready, but you won’t know the exact day. So I have the guarantee, am watching and waiting.

ElishaElijah · Jun 11, 2021

night912 said:
View attachment 51405

That’s a worldly picture, God keeps his promises.
Now let me ask you why are you gambling with your eternal destiny at stake?

night912 · Jun 11, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
That’s a worldly picture, God keeps his promises.
Now let me ask you why are you gambling with your eternal destiny at stake?

Not so confident are you, now that the truth has been pointed out to you?

ElishaElijah · Jun 11, 2021

night912 said:
Not so confident are you, now that the truth has been pointed out to you?

I am confident but I know you aren’t.
I hope you change because right now the Scripture says you are dead in trespasses and sins, walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince and power of the air, the spirit that now works in the sins of disobedience.
Seems you have this preconceived idea about me, you know nothing about me, yet push your own idea like it’s a fact even though I explain to the contrary.

Augustus · Jun 11, 2021

TagliatelliMonster said:
Only to the extent of those oral traditions being plausible and fitting with what is known from better sources.

Yes they are analysed critically, but not "only to the extent they fit with better sources".

Better sources often don't exist.

TagliatelliMonster said:
There's nothing like that for early christianity.
All we have there, is the biased word of believers who had an agenda of spreading "the faith".

And the person Alexander paid to write his history wasn't biased? Almost all ancient sources are biased.

You treat the writings about the apostles the same way you treat writings about Alexander: you analyse them critically but don't reject out of hand.

Trailblazer · Jun 11, 2021

TagliatelliMonster said:
This makes no sense.

People made claims about jesus.
People then wrote those claims down.
These writings were then collected into what we know today as the bible.

At no point did these claims stop being claims, merely because they got collected in a book.

Those were not 'claims about Jesus' they were what Jesus allegedly said and claimed about Himself and God.
What Jesus allegedly said and claimed about Himself and God -- which got recorded in the New Testament -- is the only evidence that Christians have to support their beliefs about Jesus.

Trailblazer · Jun 11, 2021

night912 said:
I would have to agree with TagliatelliMonster. It's illogical.

I don't understand why this is illogical:
#235 Trailblazer, 4 minutes ago

metis · Jun 11, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
So I have the guarantee, am watching and waiting.

That "guarantee" is conditional however, and the Parable of the Seed & Sower is just once source for this. Even Paul stated he could not be certain of his own salvation.

1213 · Jun 11, 2021

TagliatelliMonster said:
If Hercules didn't exist, why did the ancient Greeks tell stories about him?

I think it is possible that he existed. And it actually fits also to Biblical teaching, because:

The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when God's sons came to men's daughters. They bore children to them: the same were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Gen. 6:4

night912 · Jun 11, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I don't understand why this is illogical:
#235 Trailblazer, 4 minutes ago

It's a contradiction. They are not claims about Jesus and they are claims about Jesus. It's only logical to be one or the other. It's illogical to be both.

Trailblazer said:
Those were not 'claims about Jesus' they were what Jesus allegedly said and claimed about Himself and God.
What Jesus allegedly said and claimed about Himself and God -- which got recorded in the New Testament -- is the only evidence that Christians have to support their beliefs about Jesus.

night912 · Jun 11, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
I am confident but I know you aren’t.

Apparently not, because you didn't address Matthews 7 at all. And now you're having preconceived ideas about me.

ElishaElijah said:
I hope you change because right now the Scripture says you are dead in trespasses and sins, walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince and power of the air, the spirit that now works in the sins of disobedience.

Funny how scripture says the same thing about you.

ElishaElijah said:
Seems you have this preconceived idea about me, you know nothing about me, yet push your own idea like it’s a fact even though I explain to the contrary.

Apparently you have preconceived ideas about me, while I'm just telling you what is in the bible, which you've clearly dismissed.

There's Not An Iota Of Evidence The Apostles Existed

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