• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

A second contradiction in the Qur'an

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
In verse 5:90, Allah clearly tells Muslims not to drink alcohol - "O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed".

There's no room for confusion there. Unless you consider the following:

Previously, in 2:219, Allah said, "They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"

So, wait a minute, can you or can't you? It seems you can as long as all other obligations have been satisfied. The irony here is that Allah concludes 2:219 with this, "Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider".

It would seem that Allah and I have differing opinions as to the meaning of "make clear".
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
In verse 5:90, Allah clearly tells Muslims not to drink alcohol - "O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed".

There's no room for confusion there. Unless you consider the following:

Previously, in 2:219, Allah said, "They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"

So, wait a minute, can you or can't you? It seems you can as long as all other obligations have been satisfied. The irony here is that Allah concludes 2:219 with this, "Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider".

It would seem that Allah and I have differing opinions as to the meaning of "make clear".

A second contradiction in the Qur'an

I see no contradiction here
 
Last edited:

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Please tell me based on those two verses whether Islam forbids gambling and alcohol or not. Thank you.
In verse 5:90, Allah clearly tells Muslims not to drink alcohol - "O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed".
About forbidding:
Clearly nothing about 'forbidding'. It does give the advise here, that IF your goal is to 'succeed' THEN you better leave it aside

Previously, in 2:219, Allah said, "They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"
Again, nothing about 'forbidding'. But as the other verse, they do warn us that they might get you in more trouble. And a clear advice in the end, that its important to NOT spend more than you can afford. And that is good advise, because the problem usually is, that wine and gambling leads to indulging, unable to stop, and spend more than you have

So, wait a minute, can you or can't you? It seems you can as long as all other obligations have been satisfied. The irony here is that Allah concludes 2:219 with this, "Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider".

It would seem that Allah and I have differing opinions as to the meaning of "make clear".
And also this one is very clear. Allah makes it clear, that those things may lead you into trouble. BUT you are free (the addition: "in order that ye may consider")

So, I would say, that these verses are very gentle. Just some common sense advice. Makes sense to me. No contradiction at all.

I have been with a few Masters, they usually do not 'forbid', but they do give advice. But in the end you are free to ignore their advice. And they are fine with it. They are very patient. IF you need a few years to think about it, they give you all the time you need.
 
Last edited:

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
You're really struggling to find contradictions in the Qur'an. You can keep struggling, but you'll never find one.

Certainly alcohol is forbidden.
Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Every intoxicant is Khamr and every intoxicant is forbidden. He who drinks wine in this world and dies while he is addicted to it, not having repented, will not be given a drink in the Hereafter.Sahih Muslim 2003a - The Book of Drinks - كتاب الأشربة - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
And a clear advice in the end, that its important to NOT spend more than you can afford. And that is good advise, because the problem usually is, that wine and gambling leads to indulging, unable to stop, and spend more than you have
The spending is about charity. What's the point of inventing lies about other people's religion?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
stevecanuck, I applaud you that you are reflecting and seeing if there are flaws in Quran. Let us know when you think you found one. This one is obviously not a contradiction but good try.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
About forbidding:
Clearly nothing about 'forbidding'. It does give the advise here, that IF your goal is to 'succeed' THEN you better leave it aside. Again, nothing about 'forbidding'.

Obviously you're not familiar with the language of the qur'an. If Allah tells you to "set it aside", that means do NOT do it. And being "successful" is one the many ways Allah refers to going to Heaven. Translation - "If you want to go avoid burning for eternity, then don't drink or gamble".

But as the other verse, they do warn us that they might get you in more trouble. And a clear advice in the end, that its important to NOT spend more than you can afford. And that is good advise, because the problem usually is, that wine and gambling leads to indulging, unable to stop, and spend more than you have

Verse 2:219 says that gambling and drink are allowed if all other obligations are met. The contradiction is obvious. I don't see how you can say otherwise.
[/QUOTE]
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
You're really struggling to find contradictions in the Qur'an. You can keep struggling, but you'll never find one.

Certainly alcohol is forbidden.

Not according to 2:219. Please parse that verse for me and tell me how it does not say drink and gambling are allowed after all other obligations have been met.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
stevecanuck, I applaud you that you are reflecting and seeing if there are flaws in Quran. Let us know when you think you found one. This one is obviously not a contradiction but good try.

Please parse both verses and show me how there is no contradiction. Thank you.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
In verse 5:90, Allah clearly tells Muslims not to drink alcohol - "O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed".

There's no room for confusion there. Unless you consider the following:

Previously, in 2:219, Allah said, "They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"

So, wait a minute, can you or can't you? It seems you can as long as all other obligations have been satisfied. The irony here is that Allah concludes 2:219 with this, "Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider".

It would seem that Allah and I have differing opinions as to the meaning of "make clear".
All form of substance that clutter our mind are to be avoided, alcohol, tobacco, narcotics and so on. Without a clear mind, how would a person realize what Allah ask of us?
 
Last edited:

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
In verse 5:90, Allah clearly tells Muslims not to drink alcohol - "O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed".

There's no room for confusion there. Unless you consider the following:

Previously, in 2:219, Allah said, "They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"

So, wait a minute, can you or can't you? It seems you can as long as all other obligations have been satisfied. The irony here is that Allah concludes 2:219 with this, "Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider".

It would seem that Allah and I have differing opinions as to the meaning of "make clear".
Mine says And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 2:219

Also can't He in an evolving situation observe what is going on, and change things accordingly. You are aware aren't you that the Qur'an is not put together in chronological order. Surah 2 may be after Surah 5. I don't see how they contradict anyway. The sin is greater than the profit that they are an infamy of Satan's handiwork are both saying not to gamble and drink. There's a difference of emphasis.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Not according to 2:219. Please parse that verse for me and tell me how it does not say drink and gambling are allowed after all other obligations have been met.
You tell us how it does. You can't expect us to work with such lousy arguments.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
In verse 5:90, Allah clearly tells Muslims not to drink alcohol - "O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed".

There's no room for confusion there. Unless you consider the following:

Previously, in 2:219, Allah said, "They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"

So, wait a minute, can you or can't you? It seems you can as long as all other obligations have been satisfied. The irony here is that Allah concludes 2:219 with this, "Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider".

It would seem that Allah and I have differing opinions as to the meaning of "make clear".
Not really. In Quran 2:219, there are two questions that God told Muhammad that his people will ask him. The first question they will ask him is about intoxicating drinks and gambling and the second question they will ask him is about how much or what to spend to the way of Allah and to which God said what you have spare to spend. In other words, God is saying you should spend on your needs first and if you still have some left (what is beyond your needs), then, spend it in the way of Allah and by this way, Allah makes clear His Signs to you so that you may reflect or consider. Here, clearly, Allah is NOT asking you to forsake all your needs just for His sake. The 2 questions in Quran 2:219 are not even related !! So, what contradiction are you talking about ??
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Mine says And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 2:219

Correct. Same thing.

Also can't He in an evolving situation observe what is going on, and change things accordingly. You are aware aren't you that the Qur'an is not put together in chronological order. Surah 2 may be after Surah 5. I don't see how they contradict anyway. The sin is greater than the profit that they are an infamy of Satan's handiwork are both saying not to gamble and drink. There's a difference of emphasis.

I recently reread the qur'an in chronological order. I could see the evolution much more clearly that way. If Allah changed his mind, how is a person to know unless he specifically says so, which he does not.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
You tell us how it does. You can't expect us to work with such lousy arguments.

I did so in the OP and subsequently in responses to others. One says superfluous funds can be spent on drink and gambling, while the other says not to drink and gamble. It's simple and obvious.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I hardly ever bother to speak about them. You on the other hand often hurry to add a few falsities to any discussion about Islam.
In your opinion of course. I just share my view on things when asked. I don't know what your problem is. Something you need to work on I guess
 
Top