Should Christians participate in wars ?

Neuropteron said:

In a few words here are four examples of Christians involvement in wars:

In November 1095, at the Council of Clermont in southern France, the Pope called on Western Christians to take up arms to aid the Byzantines and recapture the Holy Land from Muslim control. This marked the beginning of the Crusades.

Pope Urban’s call for war was met with a tremendous response, both among the military elite as well as ordinary citizens. Those who joined the armed pilgrimage wore a cross as a symbol of the Church.

In the first world war: while some British Christians did become conscientious objectors, the vast majority supported the war and well over a million practicing Christians enlisted. For many it was a matter of Christian duty and conscience.

In the second world war ordinary Catholics fought on both sides of the conflict, each side claiming God's support, whilst fighting each other.

the Catholic Church signed a concordat with the Nazi government in 1933 and “the collusion between the Protestant churches and the Nazi regime was even closer, helped by anti-Semitic tradition in German Protestantism” (84). The fact that pastors like Dietrich Bonhoeffer were radicals in the church for opposing this collusion is an indication that such opposition was not the norm among Protestant churches. Therefore, the historical fact of such pastors is not reason enough, argues Baggini, for Christians to celebrate.

The question is:

Considering the principles that Christ laid down, how can a christian defend his involvement in a war ?

Can a Christian join military service (conscription), if so what would he/she do if ordered to participate in armed warfare ?

Is there a conflict between "loving my neighbor" and shooting at him. Does following order of a military leader, politician or church head relieve me of accountability ?

It seems to be an easy question.
Do you agree or do you think differently ?

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God said "thou shalt not kill." Some, in this forum, like to change that to murder, not kill. Killing Hitler seems like justice and a deterrent to future crimes.

W. Bush and Cheney lied us into war, claiming that he was fighting evil, and fighting the Axis of Evil, and claiming that we had an Orange Alert every few days, in order to use Satan's deception to persuade us to defy God's orders not to kill. Colin Powell lied about military intelligence, so we were left to ponder if covert intelligence really had information of which we were not privy.

Soldiers were convinced that Iraq had some link to terrorism and had Weapons of Mass Destruction--it had neither.

Soldiers can only be as honorable as their leaders.

This is why it is so difficult, from a religious standpoint, to join the military. If a commander (or president) gives an order to kill, one must obey if one has pledged himself to be a soldier. Yet, many believe that they have a previous oath to a higher power (God) to do the right thing.

God is supposed to absolve sins of those who believe in Jesus and atone for their sins. Heaven would be hell if it was filled with people who believed in Jesus but did not atone. Yet, the war in Iraq is quite different than any other war, and quite different than any other sin.

In Sodom, God destroyed two cities. In Noah's time, God flooded the world, but saved a few and animals. Yet, the war in Iraq was magnitudes worse than any of the other sins. It killed perhaps a million innocent people, and some were innocent women and children, and it disrupted their utilities and traumatized them with bombs. Rumsfeld lied that carpet bombs near major cities, which left 1/2 mile craters, didn't harm any civilians (his lies were to make the war palatable for those who were not sure we should fight).

Iraq was home to the Tower of Babel, and the Garden of Eden (between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers). So, the region was hallowed ground, protected by God, himself. It was not supposed to have bomb craters and tank tracks.

I believe that God offers no forgiveness for soldiers who took part in the Persian Gulf wars (Iraq).

Preachers who call for war don't know what they are talking about (despite their vast educations). God doesn't allow war, and that is an absolute fact.

God doesn't need us to fight his battles for Him. God is all-powerful, and if he wanted someone dead, they would be dead. God will get the enemy his way, and He says that we are not supposed to be the judge or executioners.

Valjean said:

But according to Christ, my attackers are just as much "my people" as, well.... my next door neighbors.
Christians are enjoined to love their enemies; to pray for them, not to shoot them.
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

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You took all of the joy out of killing, maiming, and shooting people. This was a fun war before you came.

If we all joined the Religious Right (which supports 2nd Amendment rights), could we shoot people?

The NRA (National Rifle Association) wasn't interested in the fact that Senator John Kerry (a member of the NRA, and avid gun advocate, who even had a hunting party during the campaign for the presidency) was a gun advocate. Rather, the NRA was politically motivated to oppose Democrats.

The 15 Most Bizarre People On The NRA's Enemies List



The NRA published an enemies list, which included President Bill Clinton, and the pope. I wonder what would have happened if one of their followers (who was a bit nutty) decided to shoot the people on their enemies list? The pope, by the way, was on their enemies list because he was a man of peace. I suppose that Gandhi would have been on their list of enemies, as well, had he been alive at the time.

Does it matter who we shoot? I suppose some bleeding heart liberal will object if we shoot innocent people...they don't believe in target practice.

Maybe we could join the Navy Reserves (like Denny Crane), so we could shoot people?

I WANT TO SHOOT PEOPLE.....WON'T ANYONE LET ME SHOOT PEOPLE?

A nation has the right and duty to protect the legitimate and just interests of its citizens. Therefore Christians can take up arms without sin when abjuring war would result in greater evil.

loverofhumanity said:

I agree fully we live in a corrupt world and I also acknowledge things like manipulation by some of organisations with a philanthropic nature as an umbrella to commit wrongdoing and evil.

But I think we need to be careful lest we foster prejudice against those who are innocent. I think we can best avoid this by not generalising about any group, race, culture or religion.

Ignorance is bliss applies equally to prejudice where we taint entire groups and tarnish their good name because of a few who are corrupt or manipulative.

So by all means call out the corrupt but there are innocent good people who have done no wrong and who’s only aim is to serve humanity.

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Sorry, it seems that you don't have enough time to read my words attentively.
I didn't say I don't trust any group of people. I said I don't trust any formal privileged group; big difference.

'Formal' means that the group is created and protected by a law. A law, religious or political, is updated, whenever necessary, by the most powerful rich group in every period of time. And you know what Jesus told me about the rich man (actually privileged and protected by a law). For instance, the rich men at the time of Jesus were sure that He is referring to them though Jesus just said 'rich', because a powerless/ordinary person cannot (is not allowed to) be real rich (be as powerful as those who run his ruling system, religious or political).

'Privileged' means that the group is given various extra rights that ordinary people can't have. And these rights are made/created to serve, in one way or another and behind the scenes, the powerful rich groups, religious or political, that support and fund it.

As you see, I am not generalizing and I am not judging anyone, I am just presenting the world as it is in reality far from the great speeches which are addressed to the world, almost daily, by various official speakers (playing the role of kings, princes, presidents, high officers or religious leaders ... etc.) of the world's top decision makers.

By the way, talking about the saying of Jesus' rich man is one of the world's taboos (there are many in Jesus message). Therefore, to be on the safe side, all Christian preachers around the world avoid talking about it.

Musing Bassist said:

A nation has the right and duty to protect the legitimate and just interests of its citizens. Therefore Christians can take up arms without sin when abjuring war would result in greater evil.

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All very practical -- in the short run, or from a worldly viewpoint -- but the OP asks about Christians, and:
1. Real Christians have no 'country.' A Christian's only country is the brotherhood of Christ. -- Galatians 3:28.

2. A Real Christian seeks to be acceptable to God through renunciation of the world, not participation in it, especially when the participation involves clear violation of the principles outlined in the Beatitudes.
How many times in the gospels does Jesus enjoin his people to deny themselves, take up their crosses, let the dead bury the dead, and follow him? "whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
What Does the Bible Say About Follow Me?
What Does the Bible Say About Narrow Way?

I'm speaking of Real Christians, of course, not wolves in sheep's clothing. I'm speaking of The Few, who actually follow the rules outlined in Christ's sermons, and choose the Narrow Way.

"Christians" talk a good game -- all that peace, love and brotherhood -- but it's just platitudes. They don't know their own rule book. They ignore the gospels. (See links above)
I judge them by their fruit, and I see a nest of vipers. I see the majority worshiping convention, not Christian values. They pretend to serve two masters.

So No, a real Christian cannot participate in war without ignoring his own gospels.

Valjean said:

So No, a real Christian cannot participate in war without ignoring his own gospels.

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Indeed, anyone in this world has the right, if not his duty, to participate and/or support a war, usually for a noble worldly cause in his mind, but a real Christian.
The reason is simple. A real Christian, by living the unconditional love towards all others as revealed by Jesus, is not of this world anymore; as Jesus Christ is.

Musing Bassist said:

A nation has the right and duty to protect the legitimate and just interests of its citizens. Therefore Christians can take up arms without sin when abjuring war would result in greater evil.

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Yes, in all times, killing another human for one's interest is a very serious crime. But killing many humans (besides destroying, burning and stealing them) while serving a powerful rich ruling system, religious or political, is an act of heroism... Right?!

Valjean said:

1. Real Christians have no 'country.' A Christian's only country is the brotherhood of Christ. -- Galatians 3:28.

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That's a disingenuous reading of that verse. The verse is a repudiation of Judaism's claims of ethnic exclusivity. One has no standing before God simply by being Jewish. To have a good standing before God baptism in Christ is necessary and this baptism is open to all without distinction. Here's the context:

This is not a repudiation of civil loyalties. Paul is not saying that Jews and Greeks should cease to exist as distinct peoples. Yet alone the distinction between male and female. Only that baptism in Christ transcends all earthly distinctions. That a saving relationship with God is not tied to race, tribe, class or gender.

Valjean said:

2. A Real Christian seeks to be acceptable to God through renunciation of the world, not participation in it, especially when the participation involves clear violation of the principles outlined in the Beatitudes.
How many times in the gospels does Jesus enjoin his people to deny themselves, take up their crosses, let the dead bury the dead, and follow him? "whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

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Have you considered the possibility that just duty to your country in its need is to take up the Cross?

This is not to say that combat in itself is a path of sanctification, but in all suffering the opportunity for it exists nonetheless. The heroism of a solder in the trenches and his selfless service to his comrades can certainly be meritorious before God, even if the war itself is displeasing to him. Because this is what you miss. Virtue exists even in ugly situations. To completely renounce worldly activity is the path of the monastic and few are called to that. Most people are called to sanctification in the world.

Further to say that any and all participation in warfare is intrinsically sinful would be to charge God with commanding evil. Since God himself commanded warfare in the Old Testament. No Christian would be so impetuous as to accuse God of ordering something that is intrinsically evil. Clearly then the command against taking human life is not absolute.

Valjean said:

I'm speaking of Real Christians, of course, not wolves in sheep's clothing. I'm speaking of The Few, who actually follow the rules outlined in Christ's sermons, and choose the Narrow Way.

"Christians" talk a good game -- all that peace, love and brotherhood -- but it's just platitudes. They don't know their own rule book. They ignore the gospels. (See links above)
I judge them by their fruit, and I see a nest of vipers. I see the majority worshiping convention, not Christian values. They pretend to serve two masters.

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To be frank with you, this is sanctimonious blather. The Catholic tradition has wrestled with the question and it rejects the notion that warfare is intrinsically sinful. It is an evil, but such evils are inevitable in a world marred by original sin. This is not to say nations have a blank cheque to attack others for selfish reasons but they do have the right to defend themselves and their citizens from the aggression of others.

But of course, a fair reading of the tradition doesn't provide a platform for myopic moralizing where Christians can be fashionably condemned for an imperfect world. That if a Christian doesn't share your reading of the Gospel as demanding total nonviolence then it can only be because he's an insincere viper. Granted, insincere vipers do indeed exist but the Christian tradition tells us to expect that.

Valjean said:

But how would they do that without violating the moral principles outlined in the New Testament, as well as the 6th commandment from the Old?

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I don't think there is anything inherently against killing in any of the Bible. If I kill a murderer to prevent the active commission of a murder, neither Jesus in the NT nor anything in the OT condemns my actions. The Bible talks a lot about how you should act with regards to yourself, but it is quiet on how to act in regards to the safety of others.

The 6th commandment has always been not to murder.

For instance, a faithful Jew is supposed to destroy the enemies of Moses' God; much like a faithful Muslim is supposed to destroy the enemies of Allah. Please correct me if this is wrong, thank you.

Similarly whoever believes in the notion of ‘country’, he is also supposed to destroy its enemies. This explains why we can find always great patriotic heroes in every country (defined on the world’s map by certain powerful rich Elite, not by any ordinary/powerless people forming the majority in any country) when two countries or more are forced to be in war.

Of course, no one is forced to be Christian because true love cannot be imposed even by God; if it is imposed, it could be anything but true love. But whoever claims being Christian and acts as a good worldly person does (while he knows that he is not supposed being in this world as Jesus Christ is) is one of two: he is fooling himself or fooling others (or, perhaps, he knows a worldly Jesus, not the one I know).

Everyone has made some correct points, everyone has made some incorrect points, but the fact is that God determines all that happens, even what we type here in these comments, for the source of each of us is from the same source, the Universe or God if you prefer.

" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

ben d said:

Everyone has made some correct points, everyone has made some incorrect points, but the fact is that God determines all that happens, even what we type here in these comments, for the source of each of us is from the same source, the Universe or God if you prefer.

" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

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Yes, and this is why I personally don't judge anyone because I discovered that all happenings in the world (excluding living the unconditional love, as revealed by Jesus) are in God's Plan already.