So Jesus is not God?

ToGodorNottoGod said:

That obviously has you terrified doesn't it....Lol......

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Terrified ?? Hardly… Amused ?? Yes.. I find it amusing that even in this 21st Century, there are people who would still believe Jesus, in saying ‘I and my Father are one’ means Jesus and God are one and the same person and I find it more amusing that people would believe that Jesus prayed to God to make all his disciples ‘Gods’ too just because he asked God to make his disciples one just as he is one with God !!! ….LOL…

JerryMyers said:

Terrified ?? Hardly… Amused ?? Yes.. I find it amusing that even in this 21st Century, there are people who would still believe Jesus, in saying ‘I and my Father are one’ means Jesus and God are one and the same person and I find it more amusing that people would believe that Jesus prayed to God to make all his disciples ‘Gods’ too just because he asked God to make his disciples one just as he is one with God !!! ….LOL…

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I find it amusing how difficult it is for people to actually allow the scripture to say and mean what it says and means.

ToGodorNottoGod said:

I find it amusing how difficult it is for people to actually allow the scripture to say and mean what it says and means.

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You mean you really actually believe that Jesus was saying he and God are one and the same person when he said ‘I and my Father are one’ as recorded in the scripture ???! If you can believe that, then, I supposed you would also believe that a camel can pass through the eye of a needle because in Matthew 19:24, that’s what Jesus said “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God”!!! Now, THAT’S REALLY, REALLY AMUSING !!! …LOL…

JerryMyers said:

I believe you do not know how trinity is defined in Christianity.

Merriam-Webster dictionary defined trinity as ‘: the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma’.

Even so, don’t you know according to your own scripture, God dwells in all of us, NOT just in 3 persons ??

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I believe they can define it any way they wish but that doesn't mean it is Biblically correct.

I believe the Trinity is three persons according to a theological definition of person and one God. There are not three persons in God. If godhead simply means the entirety of what God is and does then God is much more than the Trinity but no doubt the Trinity is an important aspect of God.

JerryMyers said:

You mean you really actually believe that Jesus was saying he and God are one and the same person when he said ‘I and my Father are one’ as recorded in the scripture ???! If you can believe that, then, I supposed you would also believe that a camel can pass through the eye of a needle because in Matthew 19:24, that’s what Jesus said “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God”!!! Now, THAT’S REALLY, REALLY AMUSING !!! …LOL…

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I believe that is not correlative. In one case Jesus says what He is and another he says what a camel can't do. I believe Him in both cases that He is one with the Father and a camel can't pass through the Eye of the Needle.

Muffled said:

I believe they can define it any way they wish but that doesn't mean it is Biblically correct.

I believe the Trinity is three persons according to a theological definition of person and one God. There are not three persons in God. If godhead simply means the entirety of what God is and does then God is much more than the Trinity but no doubt the Trinity is an important aspect of God.

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If you said the trinity is an important aspect of God, then, PROVE IT with the words of God Almighty and/or His prophet, Jesus, NOT with the words of other people.

Muffled said:

I believe that is not correlative. In one case Jesus says what He is and another he says what a camel can't do. I believe Him in both cases that He is one with the Father and a camel can't pass through the Eye of the Needle.

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I believe your muddled mind is stopping you from thinking clearly, Muffled. Jesus was NOT talking about what a camel can do or cannot do in Matthew 19:24, and he had NEVER claimed he and God are one and the same.

Fact is, Jesus, in his preaching, OFTEN spoke figuratively and in parables and that’s why the Jews in his times (and those like you today) always misinterpret his words.

So, if you understand Jesus’ statement “I and my Father are one” LITERALLY as God and Jesus are one and the same, then, you would also understand LITERALLY Jesus’ statement “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle…”.

JerryMyers said:

I believe your muddled mind is stopping you from thinking clearly, Muffled. Jesus was NOT talking about what a camel can do or cannot do in Matthew 19:24, and he had NEVER claimed he and God are one and the same.

Fact is, Jesus, in his preaching, OFTEN spoke figuratively and in parables and that’s why the Jews in his times (and those like you today) always misinterpret his words.

So, if you understand Jesus’ statement “I and my Father are one” LITERALLY as God and Jesus are one and the same, then, you would also understand LITERALLY Jesus’ statement “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle…”.

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Thanks Jerry, great post.
Yeah, Jesus often spoke in a figurative language and esp in parables. I like reading Mathew 13 where he explains why he does that too. But if we think that everything in the bible is literal, then look at Revelation with the dragon with seven heads and the beasts! Wow! A Godzilla move come true!!

Great post though, thanks

JerryMyers said:

If you said the trinity is an important aspect of God, then, PROVE IT with the words of God Almighty and/or His prophet, Jesus, NOT with the words of other people.

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I believe am not sure what you are looking for. Wikitree has different views of importance but value is one of them. So The Father is valuable becaue He controls all things, the Son valuable because He brings salvation and the Gospel, and the Paraclete is valuable because it makes salvation work and helps spread the Gospel.

JerryMyers said:

I believe your muddled mind is stopping you from thinking clearly, Muffled. Jesus was NOT talking about what a camel can do or cannot do in Matthew 19:24, and he had NEVER claimed he and God are one and the same.

Fact is, Jesus, in his preaching, OFTEN spoke figuratively and in parables and that’s why the Jews in his times (and those like you today) always misinterpret his words.

So, if you understand Jesus’ statement “I and my Father are one” LITERALLY as God and Jesus are one and the same, then, you would also understand LITERALLY Jesus’ statement “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle…”.

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I believe I can verify that I have senior moments but for debates I let Jesus do the talking and he is not muddled in His thinking.

I believe that statement lacks credibility.

I believe that much is true but often is not always.

I believe people are capable of misinterpreting scripture whether or not it is in parables or metaphors but I believe Jesus interprets correctly.

I believe that is illogical. Each passage must be understood on its own in context.

I believe you have misinterpreted me and the scripture at the same time, lol. They are not one and the same but God is the same in all three members of the Trinity.

moorea944 said:

Thanks Jerry, great post.
Yeah, Jesus often spoke in a figurative language and esp in parables. I like reading Mathew 13 where he explains why he does that too. But if we think that everything in the bible is literal, then look at Revelation with the dragon with seven heads and the beasts! Wow! A Godzilla move come true!!

Great post though, thanks

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I believe it would help if you could tell when something is literal and when it is not but I have an advantage because I have the Holy Spirit in me.

Muffled said:

I believe it would help if you could tell when something is literal and when it is not but I have an advantage because I have the Holy Spirit in me.

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Hi Muffled, please can you tell me about the God that you believe in. How does your God compare to other pagan Gods of the scriptures?

Consider Dueteronomy 4:

• “39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.”

This implies that being “God” is an office of power and authority, an office of Rulership.

Trinity, therefore, advocates that its ‘God’ is three Spirit persons officiating in one power and authority - one office of rulership.

But the reality of the doctrine and ideology of trinity does not portray that advocation.

Skywalker said:

Christ has all the fullness of God means that Christ is God incarnated.

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Christ has all the fullness of God means that Christ is God incarnated.

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If God was incarnate as Jesus then it would mean that Jesus was ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’.

Trinity defines ‘God’ as ‘Father, Son, Holy Spirit’

Thomas was supposed to have seen God when he saw the resurrected Jesus.

Trinitarians say that Thomas called Jesus:

• “..., My [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]”

Moreover, since God is SPIRIT, and Jesus told Thomas:

• “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39)

how is it still justified by Trinitarians that Thomas saw and touched God?

All this while the other ten disciples were non-plussed at seeing ‘ALMIGHTY GOD IN THE FLESH’, as Trinitarian claim!

That would be truly amazing!

Soapy said:

Hi Muffled, please can you tell me about the God that you believe in. How does your God compare to other pagan Gods of the scriptures?

Consider Dueteronomy 4:

• “39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.”

This implies that being “God” is an office of power and authority, an office of Rulership.

Trinity, therefore, advocates that its ‘God’ is three Spirit persons officiating in one power and authority - one office of rulership.

But the reality of the doctrine and ideology of trinity does not portray that advocation.

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i believe my God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, love and good.

I believe pagan gods don't even come close to any of that.

i believe that is false God is only one Spirit. Trinity says that one Spirit exists in the three persons of the Trinity.

Muffled said:

i believe my God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, love and good.

I believe pagan gods don't even come close to any of that.

i believe that is false God is only one Spirit. Trinity says that one Spirit exists in the three persons of the Trinity.

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i believe that is false God is only one Spirit. Trinity says that one Spirit exists in the three persons of the Trinity.

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I see that you say that that is what you believe - and you have the right to believe what you want... but we are talking PROVING from scriptures what you say you believe.

Can you show me something that from the scriptures (please, not a CREED, nor trinitarian webpage ... Bible Scriptures) that shows what you say you believe. Thanks.

Muffled said:

Trinity says that one Spirit exists in the three persons of the Trinity.

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No answer, eh!!!

WHAT IS TRINITY?

Where did trinity come from in relation to the Bible scriptures?

Where in scriptures does it say that there is one spirit existing in three persons.

As I read, the scriptures says:

• ‘There is ONE GOD, [who is] THE FATHER….’ and
• ‘One Lord, Jesus [the] Christ…’

How clear do things have to be before a trinitarian understands:

• “One GOD; the Father, and creator of all things”?

And, indeed, ‘Father’ means, ‘Creator’.

Jesus is NEVER called ‘Father’ yet trinity claims that Jesus ‘Created all things’.

(Isaiah prophesies that the given son will be called ‘Eternal Father’… this refers to the END OF TIME when he gives ‘Eternal Life’ to those whom he judges worthy for his kingdom)

Soapy said:

No answer, eh!!!

WHAT IS TRINITY?

Where did trinity come from in relation to the Bible scriptures?

Where in scriptures does it say that there is one spirit existing in three persons.

As I read, the scriptures says:

• ‘There is ONE GOD, [who is] THE FATHER….’ and
• ‘One Lord, Jesus [the] Christ…’

How clear do things have to be before a trinitarian understands:

• “One GOD; the Father, and creator of all things”?

And, indeed, ‘Father’ means, ‘Creator’.

Jesus is NEVER called ‘Father’ yet trinity claims that Jesus ‘Created all things’.

(Isaiah prophesies that the given son will be called ‘Eternal Father’… this refers to the END OF TIME when he gives ‘Eternal Life’ to those whom he judges worthy for his kingdom)

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How true!! And with all of the words in the bible, why do people have to "makeup" words to fit their beliefs, like God the son and God the HS. Words like incarnate, etc... Dont understand....

Ellen Brown said:

There is a range of belief about the "Godhead". An adult will allow others to find their own truth.

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where does the Bible say we can believe what ever we like?
Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
Divine revelation from God can either be believed or rejected

moorea944 said:

How true!! And with all of the words in the bible, why do people have to "makeup" words to fit their beliefs, like God the son and God the HS. Words like incarnate, etc... Dont understand....

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Thank you, Moorea944. The testimony of Jesus Christ that God gave him to give to mankind testifies to the truth … We are all ‘taught by God if indeed we are children of God’ who do the Will of God… as Jesus Christ did: the only true Son of God because only he truly carries out all that the Father gives him to do…

The reason for the ‘make things up’ is because they have to.

The problem is always that when they do realise they were wrong and the truth is being shown them, they will have to invent, create, design, obfuscate, slither and slide, deeper into disingenuousness, attempting to thwart that truth. Clinging to what their belief says, or pastor, priest, vicar, or friend says because his then do they go back and talk to that person or persons or even go to church the next week? So they are lost - not realising that in fact, they are found!!!

Ha! ‘Better the devil you know!’ Is their cry and they stick with him and runaway …

Scriptures is clear:

• “7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—

• I have come to do your will, my God.’ ”

• 8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law.
• 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
• 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
• 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
• 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
• 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.
• 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:7-14)

How does a trinitarian explain Jesus calling a higher power, ‘my God’ if that same trinitarian believes fervently, wholeheartedly, and truthfully in themselves that Jesus IS THAT GOD he pledges to do the Will of?

How? By being disingenuous with the truth… saying that Jesus was BOTH man and ALMIGHTY GOD … ALMIGHTY GOD who chose not to know things!

It is no wonder that other religions laugh at Christianity … trinitarian Christianity and mock it, mercilessly.

And do you notice it is mainly JW who trinity attacks… JW are easy target for them… but they creep and hide away from the truth teller because it’s not easy, damn near impossible, to deny the clear truth.