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Why would a god select only the few?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Allah in the Qur'an says that Muhammad (pbuh) was a Messenger for all people.
Thanks, I believe he was a Messenger for all people and I now recall reading some time ago that Islam is a Universalizing religion. Since it is pertinent to this thread I am going to post the difference between a Universalizing religion and an Ethnic religion.

I ran across this website about Ethnic vs. Universalizing Religions several years ago. It explains the difference between these two kinds of religions. A universalizing religion looks for new members and welcomes anyone and everyone who wishes to adopt their belief system. Throughout history, some of these religions such as Christianity have attempted to convert people to their religion.

By contrast, ethnic religions consist of beliefs that were handed down from generation to generation within an ethnicity and culture and these religions do not try to convert others to their belief system. That is one reason Judaism is relatively small religion, with only about 14 million after over 4000 years. Compare that with Christianity and Islam, who have 2.3 billion and 1.9 billion members, respectively.

The Baha’i Faith is not included on this website but it goes without saying that it is universalizing religion.

Ethnic vs. Universalizing Religions: AP Human Geography Crash Course

Universalizing Religions

First, let’s look at the definition of universalizing religion. Universalizing religions offer belief systems that are attractive to the universal population. They look for new members and welcome anyone and everyone who wishes to adopt their belief system. Universalizing religions have many diverse members, who come from different ethnic backgrounds, hence the term universal. Therefore, it is evident that universal religions consist of many different ethnic groups because they convert and accept anyone of any background and are usually not closely tied to one location.

Christianity

Christianity is the largest universalizing religion, both in area and in number, with about two billion adherents. Founded on the teachings of Jesus, Christianity is monotheistic, believing that God is a Trinity and Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The three main branches of Christianity are Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. Roman Catholics are predominate in Southwest Europe and Latin America, Protestants in Northwest Europe and North America, and Orthodox in Eastern Europe. Eastern Orthodoxy is the largest single religious faith in Greece, Cyprus, and Russia.

Islam

Islam is the second largest universalizing religion with over 1.5 billion adherents. In Arabic, Islam means “submitting to the will of God”. Those who practice Islam are Muslims, which means one who surrenders to God. Islam begins with Abraham like Christianity and Judaism, but traces their story through Abraham’s second wife and son, Hagar and Ishmael, not Sarah and Isaac like the Christians and Jews. Their leader and prophet is Muhammad. The two branches of Islam are Sunni and Shiite. The division between the Sunni and Shia originated in a disagreement over leadership after Muhammad’s death in 632 CE. Islam is the predominant religion in the Middle East from North Africa to Central Asia. More than half of the world’s Muslims live in four countries outside the Middle East: Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and India.

Buddhism

Buddhism is the fourth largest religion, with about 350 million adherents. Buddhism was founded in Northern India by the first known Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama. The core Buddhist belief is reincarnation. In this concept, people are reborn after dying. One can attain Nirvana if one releases their attachment to desire and self. Today, Buddhism is a majority faith in Southeast Asia, China, and Japan.

Ethnic Religions

In contrast to universalizing religions, ethnic religions usually consist of beliefs, superstitions, and rituals handed down from generation to generation within an ethnicity and culture. It follows one’s ethnicity because the religion does not tend to convert. In some ways, ethnic religions act like a folk culture. It expands via relocation diffusion and often increases through birth rates. Ethnic religions relate closely to culture, ethnic heritage, and to the physical geography of a particular place. Ethnic religions do not attempt to appeal to all people, but only one group, maybe in one locale or within one ethnicity. Judaism and Hinduism are two prime examples of ethnic religions.

Hinduism

Hinduism is the largest ethnic religion and the world’s third largest religion with about 1 billion adherents. Hinduism existed before recorded history and had no specific founder. The origins of Hinduism in India are unclear; however, the oldest manuscripts date to 1500 BCE. Hinduism consists of many different religious groups evolved in India since 1500 BCE. Other religions are more centrally organized than Hinduism, and it is up to the individual to decide the best way to worship God. The principle of reincarnation is the cornerstone of Hinduism, and their doctrine closely mirrors India’s caste system. Almost all Hindus live in one country, India, but also are in Bangladesh, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and Nepal.

Judaism

Judaism is an ethnic religion that has more than 14 million followers worldwide. There are 6 million Jews in Israel and 5 million in the United States. Two of the main universalizing religions, Christianity and Islam, find some of their roots in Judaism, recognizing Abraham as a Patriarch. Jews believe in one true God, and the Western Wall of the old temple in Jerusalem is one of their most holy sites. The three branches of Judaism are Orthodox, Conservatives, and Reformed. Judaism is distributed throughout part of the Middle East and North Africa, the United States, Russia, and Europe.

Ethnic vs. Universalizing Religions: AP® Human Geography Crash Course | Albert.io
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Thanks, I believe he was a Messenger for all people and I now recall reading some time ago that Islam is a Universalizing religion. Since it is pertinent to this thread I am going to post the difference between a Universalizing religion and an Ethnic religion.

I ran across this website about Ethnic vs. Universalizing Religions several years ago. It explains the difference between these two kinds of religions. A universalizing religion looks for new members and welcomes anyone and everyone who wishes to adopt their belief system. Throughout history, some of these religions such as Christianity have attempted to convert people to their religion.

By contrast, ethnic religions consist of beliefs that were handed down from generation to generation within an ethnicity and culture and these religions do not try to convert others to their belief system. That is one reason Judaism is relatively small religion, with only about 14 million after over 4000 years. Compare that with Christianity and Islam, who have 2.3 billion and 1.9 billion members, respectively.

The Baha’i Faith is not included on this website but it goes without saying that it is universalizing religion.

Ethnic vs. Universalizing Religions: AP Human Geography Crash Course

Universalizing Religions

First, let’s look at the definition of universalizing religion. Universalizing religions offer belief systems that are attractive to the universal population. They look for new members and welcome anyone and everyone who wishes to adopt their belief system. Universalizing religions have many diverse members, who come from different ethnic backgrounds, hence the term universal. Therefore, it is evident that universal religions consist of many different ethnic groups because they convert and accept anyone of any background and are usually not closely tied to one location.

Christianity

Christianity is the largest universalizing religion, both in area and in number, with about two billion adherents. Founded on the teachings of Jesus, Christianity is monotheistic, believing that God is a Trinity and Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The three main branches of Christianity are Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. Roman Catholics are predominate in Southwest Europe and Latin America, Protestants in Northwest Europe and North America, and Orthodox in Eastern Europe. Eastern Orthodoxy is the largest single religious faith in Greece, Cyprus, and Russia.

Islam

Islam is the second largest universalizing religion with over 1.5 billion adherents. In Arabic, Islam means “submitting to the will of God”. Those who practice Islam are Muslims, which means one who surrenders to God. Islam begins with Abraham like Christianity and Judaism, but traces their story through Abraham’s second wife and son, Hagar and Ishmael, not Sarah and Isaac like the Christians and Jews. Their leader and prophet is Muhammad. The two branches of Islam are Sunni and Shiite. The division between the Sunni and Shia originated in a disagreement over leadership after Muhammad’s death in 632 CE. Islam is the predominant religion in the Middle East from North Africa to Central Asia. More than half of the world’s Muslims live in four countries outside the Middle East: Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and India.

Buddhism

Buddhism is the fourth largest religion, with about 350 million adherents. Buddhism was founded in Northern India by the first known Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama. The core Buddhist belief is reincarnation. In this concept, people are reborn after dying. One can attain Nirvana if one releases their attachment to desire and self. Today, Buddhism is a majority faith in Southeast Asia, China, and Japan.

Ethnic Religions

In contrast to universalizing religions, ethnic religions usually consist of beliefs, superstitions, and rituals handed down from generation to generation within an ethnicity and culture. It follows one’s ethnicity because the religion does not tend to convert. In some ways, ethnic religions act like a folk culture. It expands via relocation diffusion and often increases through birth rates. Ethnic religions relate closely to culture, ethnic heritage, and to the physical geography of a particular place. Ethnic religions do not attempt to appeal to all people, but only one group, maybe in one locale or within one ethnicity. Judaism and Hinduism are two prime examples of ethnic religions.

Hinduism

Hinduism is the largest ethnic religion and the world’s third largest religion with about 1 billion adherents. Hinduism existed before recorded history and had no specific founder. The origins of Hinduism in India are unclear; however, the oldest manuscripts date to 1500 BCE. Hinduism consists of many different religious groups evolved in India since 1500 BCE. Other religions are more centrally organized than Hinduism, and it is up to the individual to decide the best way to worship God. The principle of reincarnation is the cornerstone of Hinduism, and their doctrine closely mirrors India’s caste system. Almost all Hindus live in one country, India, but also are in Bangladesh, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and Nepal.

Judaism

Judaism is an ethnic religion that has more than 14 million followers worldwide. There are 6 million Jews in Israel and 5 million in the United States. Two of the main universalizing religions, Christianity and Islam, find some of their roots in Judaism, recognizing Abraham as a Patriarch. Jews believe in one true God, and the Western Wall of the old temple in Jerusalem is one of their most holy sites. The three branches of Judaism are Orthodox, Conservatives, and Reformed. Judaism is distributed throughout part of the Middle East and North Africa, the United States, Russia, and Europe.

Ethnic vs. Universalizing Religions: AP® Human Geography Crash Course | Albert.io
Indigenous groups around the worlds that are smaller also have their local or ethnic religion. The Lakota have White Buffalo Calf Woman they consider a holy person or Prophet. The Toltec and Mayan people of central America, some of them, believe in Quetzalcoatl as a prophet. Deganawida is believed to be the prophet of the Iroquois. The US learned the US federal system from the Iroquois union of 6 or 7 tribes. There are others, I think.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Yes. Jesus' work started with the Jews - Luke 4:43
But Jesus expanded his work to include being done on a vast international or global scale as being done today.
- Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8

No that was not Jesus. That was Paul/Saul and there were not direct messages to anyone but the Jews from Jesus.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Indigenous groups around the worlds that are smaller also have their local or ethnic religion. The Lakota have White Buffalo Calf Woman they consider a holy person or Prophet. The Toltec and Mayan people of central America, some of them, believe in Quetzalcoatl as a prophet. Deganawida is believed to be the prophet of the Iroquois. The US learned the US federal system from the Iroquois union of 6 or 7 tribes. There are others, I think.

Yes but was the white buffalo woman connected to another god or was she their goddess? Dekananawida did visit the Iroquois/Haudenosaunee and was able to walk on water and gave the great tree of peace but does that make him the same messenger for the Abrahamic god? Their religious view of the world is different that the traditional Abrahamic religion. How do you account for the differences?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
......I do not believe death will ever cease on Earth, because humans were created to be mortal and live a limited life span on Earth and then die and go to heaven.

Yes, humans (and angels for that matter) are created as: mortals.
Mortal Adam could only live as long as he did Not break God's Law.
This holds true for mortal angels.
Sinner Satan will be destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2:14 B; Romans 16:20.

In Scripture the only ones given immortality are people classed as: saints or holy ones - Daniel 7:18
Jesus was Not granted immortality until after his God resurrected dead Jesus back to heavenly life.

Mortal angels were created first before mortal humans.
Angelic abode is only Heaven
Human abode is mostly Earth ( only those classed like those of Luke 22:28-30 to end up in Heaven )
In other words, if it were Not for people like those of Revelation 2:10 No human would have ever entered Heaven.

Mortal Adam started out with the offer to live forever on Earth, never was Adam offered Heaven.
The choice was either: eternal life on Earth, or returning to the dust of the Earth - Genesis 3:19
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Is the criteria for determining it comes from God really the number of books or the number of translations? How little you really understand God at all....................!

I find in Scripture if people don't tell the rocks will call out.
Not the number of books/ translations, but as Romans 10:9-15 brings out ' how in turn will they preach unless they have been sent out ' Jesus sends out people just as Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8 says.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Message that Muhammad (pbuh) brought at its heart was very simple - to believe in, worship, and submit oneself wholeheartedly to One God - Allah - and not associate anyone or anything in worship with that One God; to accept the Messengership of Muhammad (pbuh) as the last and Seal of all Messengers, as well as all previous Messengers; to believe in that which Muhammad (pbuh) was sent with (the Qur'an) confirming that which previous Messengers were sent with; to believe in the Day of Judgment; and to do righteous good deeds.
Thank you for your reply. Yes, believe in the Day of Judgement and do righteous ( spiritual ) deeds.
Day of Judgement as Not a literal day, but I find a 'thousand-year day' when Jesus as King of God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) will govern over Earth for a thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
Righteous or spiritual deeds as Jesus instructed at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8 besides cultivating the fruitage of God's spirit as listed at Galatians 5:22-23 along with Christ-like love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
URAVIP2ME said: Mortal Adam started out with the offer to live forever on Earth,

Trailblazer said: Can you show me where there are any verses in the Bible that explicitly state that?

URAVIP2ME said: Try Genesis 2:17
We do Not see the return of the ' tree of life ' until the thousand-year reign of Christ over Earth - Revelation 22:2
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That verse does not say that mortal Adam started out with the offer to live forever on Earth. Where does the Bible say that?

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Baha'is do not believe that the Tree of Life was an actual tree that grew out of the ground, not in Genesis and not in Revelation 22:2. Baha’is believe that the Tree of Life represents the Word of God which bestows eternal life, which is not physical life but rather spiritual life.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

“The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 124

From: 30: ADAM AND EVE
.
The RETURN of the Tree of Life was the return of the Christ Spirit in the person of Baha'u'llah. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations, which is what Baha'u'llah came to accomplish.

“Cling ye, with your inmost hearts, to the Cause of God, a Cause that hath been sent down by Him Who is the Ordainer, the All-Wise. We have, with the utmost kindliness and mercy, summoned and directed all peoples and nations to that which shall truly profit them.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 270
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Thank you for your reply. Yes, believe in the Day of Judgement and do righteous ( spiritual ) deeds.
Day of Judgement as Not a literal day, but I find a 'thousand-year day' when Jesus as King of God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) will govern over Earth for a thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
Righteous or spiritual deeds as Jesus instructed at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8 besides cultivating the fruitage of God's spirit as listed at Galatians 5:22-23 along with Christ-like love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.

I believe that it is Allah not Jesus (pbuh) who will preside over the Day of Judgment, when everyone will be presented with a record of what they believed and did, and they will be granted Paradise or Hell in accordance with those beliefs and deeds. I do however agree with you that Jesus (pbuh) will return to Earth to rule as a just ruler, though ruling in accordance with Islam.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I believe that it is Allah not Jesus (pbuh) who will preside over the Day of Judgment, when everyone will be presented with a record of what they believed and did, and they will be granted Paradise or Hell in accordance with those beliefs and deeds. I do however agree with you that Jesus (pbuh) will return to Earth to rule as a just ruler, though ruling in accordance with Islam.
Thank you for your reply.
In the Bible I read it's 'death' that stamps the total full price tag that sin pays as Paid in Full according to Romans 6:23; Romans 6:7.
Nowhere do I read (includes Adam) that it is ' death plus post-mortem punishment '. No double jeopardy in death.
So, to me it is what a person does ' after ' they are resurrected to be granted Paradise Earth or Hell/Destruction.
The wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22.
I think we can agree with SURAH XXI:105 about it is the righteous inheriting the land.
The land or ' garden ' SURRAH XXXIX:73-74.
Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I find in Scripture if people don't tell the rocks will call out.
Not the number of books/ translations, but as Romans 10:9-15 brings out ' how in turn will they preach unless they have been sent out ' Jesus sends out people just as Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8 says.


Why send people out to preach? If God wanted us to have the information, God would have implanted it before birth.

If we go by your method, God is a failure because God did not get everyone a copy. Preaching does not work and I do not hear any Rocks calling out.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

CBM

Member
If one claims as the Abrahamic religions do that god is the one and only creator, why would that god only present himself to just a few isolated people in this world? Were they the only humans he cared about? Did he not like the rest of the humans that occupied the Earth? Did he not even think to present himself to other people of the Earth? For those that follow this god and feel comfortable with him fine, but to claim him the one and only true god when he only presented to an extremely small group of people in only one location of the world seems cruel to ignore everyone else. That would imply that this perfect one god ignored most of the world of humans. On the other hand if this is just one god of many then fine but that is not the claim.

Before I reply properly, I just want to point out that someone can only have a problem with this if they are working under the premise that there is truth to the Biblical account of the revelation at Sinai.

So saying that answering your question using Biblical sources isn’t acceptable to you doesn’t make sense to me.

If the source is not relevant to someone, it shouldn’t be relevant at all - period.
There wouldn’t be a problem to begin with.

Ok, that being said, I do believe in a national revelation at Sinai.
To answer your question:
Midrash Sifri in Deuteronomy states that prior to G-d presenting the Torah to the Jews He asked the other nations if they’d like to accept it. They all rejected the Torah based on the fact that they’d have to alter their national identity to conform and that was not something they wanted to do.
However, it’s stated that there were individuals among the nations who did indeed accept the Torah and joined the Jewish people at Sinai.
And just like it says that the souls of all the Jewish people were at Mt Sinai, so too were the souls of all future converts.

Because although the national identities/ characteristics of the other nations as a whole were not suitable for Torah, individuals always have a choice.

I saw someone say that Judaism is an ethnic religion vs a universal one.
I’d have to disagree with that.
Judaism simply allows for different paths leading up the same mountain- closeness with the One true G-d by way of ethical behavior and recognition of Him.

My belief is that if a thinking, seeking person in middle of nowhere, with no outside influence, cannot come to the recognition of the essential characteristics of a faith, then it isn’t a fair faith by a fair G-d and therefore loses credibility.

Judaism stands up to that test.

The seven Noachide laws are easily accessible through introspection and seeking. Every human being is capable of reaching untold spiritual heights on their own.

Jews believe we were entrusted with the Torah, a much more thorough and rigorous way of living, because, as a nation we are charged with being a “light unto the nations” and we need to be a constant example of righteousness.
Have we failed miserably at times? Unfortunately, yes. But a covenant is a covenant.
And the core of the nation always repents.

Our mission is simply different than the rest of the nations, just as we believe women’s general mission differs from men’s.
Just as each individual has his/ her own mission.

A person knows in their soul whether or not their individual mission is bound up with the Jewish people.
And that’s why there is a concept of conversion.
As far as those of us who were born Jews, we don’t get a choice.
A Jew remains a Jew.
And trust me, it’s not always easy following every law...

Anyway, I hope this helped you see things from another perspective.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Midrash Sifri in Deuteronomy states that prior to G-d presenting the Torah to the Jews He asked the other nations if they’d like to accept it. They all rejected the Torah based on the fact that they’d have to alter their national identity to conform and that was not something they wanted to do.

Really how fascinating. So God appeared all over the world equally to all races, nationalities and languages and presented himself and was rejected even though he was the one true god? Only a small group of the people in one part of the world were willing to accept this god. And this seems rational to you and not emotionally comforting? I find it unbelievable that any nation would reject the one true god if that all powerful god approached them unless the rest of the world is was not very smart. That could be a reason I suppose.

And how do you know this god is the one true god amongst so many other gods and goddesses of the world. Have you meet the others and made a comparison yourself or is this just because you have a book that says so?
 

CBM

Member
Really how fascinating. So God appeared all over the world equally to all races, nationalities and languages and presented himself and was rejected even though he was the one true god? Only a small group of the people in one part of the world were willing to accept this god. And this seems rational to you and not emotionally comforting? I find it unbelievable that any nation would reject the one true god if that all powerful god approached them unless the rest of the world is was not very smart. That could be a reason I suppose.

And how do you know this god is the one true god amongst so many other gods and goddesses of the world. Have you meet the others and made a comparison yourself or is this just because you have a book that says so?

You seem unnecessarily antagonistic, but I will respond nevertheless.
1. It does not say they rejected G-d. It says they rejected the Torah. As I said - G-d is equally available to any seeker.

2. Your question only makes sense from the perspective of someone who believes in the Bible. And yes, the Bible states there is one G-d.
If you’d like to know why I believe the Bible is divine, that would be going off on a tangent and is not relevant to this thread.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I saw someone say that Judaism is an ethnic religion vs a universal one.
I’d have to disagree with that.
Judaism simply allows for different paths leading up the same mountain- closeness with the One true G-d by way of ethical behavior and recognition of Him.

I am sure Judaism is clear and equal with respect to nationalities and race. I mean Look at the diversity of it followers who are always so inclusive correct? Now when you mention the path of ethical behavior other religions clearly equal anything Judaism has to offer just with a different god or goddess or combination. Judaism does not have the sole rights to ethical behavior.
 

CBM

Member
I am sure Judaism is clear and equal with respect to nationalities and race. I mean Look at the diversity of it followers who are always so inclusive correct? Now when you mention the path of ethical behavior other religions clearly equal anything Judaism has to offer just with a different god or goddess or combination. Judaism does not have the sole rights to ethical behavior.

It would be easier to communicate with you if you weren’t sarcastic and full of negative insinuations. I appreciate honest, straightforward communication.

Nowhere have I said that Judaism has a monopoly on ethical behavior. Ethical behavior is accessible to anyone.

(Including being polite on online forums.)
 
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