Outsiders' impression of your religion vs. reality

9-10ths_Penguin said:

I often have to remind myself that the impression I get based on the loudest members of that group

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I am no longer a Catholic, but I would say that most of the incorrect impressions (misinformation) I have seen about Catholicism have been from non-Catholics who have been told incorrect (or downright false) interpretations of Catholic doctrine. This is not to say I agree with all Catholic doctrine and the rationales behind it. But I have heard much incorrect information from non-Catholics. I have also heard very off-putting diatribes from those I call "uber-Catholics" but they are generally fully orthodox in their beliefs--the off-putting aspects are arrogance and triumphalism.

The_Fisher_King said:

One can take the claims seriously in the first instance and then examine those claims as to whether they have a reasonable basis for claiming to be a Muslim (leaving the final judgment to Allah, who Alone will know whether they have faith in their hearts).

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You're avoiding my point. I never said anything about someone claiming to be Muslim. I said, those who call themselves Muslims. That includes all people who call themselves Muslims whether they're Muslims or not. By saying that I can avoid addressing the topic you're after.

Shakeel said:

You're avoiding my point. I never said anything about someone claiming to be Muslim. I said, those who call themselves Muslims. That includes all people who call themselves Muslims whether they're Muslims or not. By saying that I can avoid addressing the topic you're after.

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If someone calls themselves a Muslim, to my mind they are claiming to be a Muslim. I don't really see the difference.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

When I'm trying to figure out as an outsider what some other group is like, I often have to remind myself that the impression I get based on the loudest members of that group isn't necessarily a good representation of what it's actually like in the group.

Group members who don't speak up are less likely to be noticed by outsiders, so the loudest members can have a disproportionate effect on the opinions of outsiders.

For your own religion or other group, what differences do you see between what your experience is really like and what someone's impression would be based only on your group's loudest members?

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Good question!

The only religion that I know is Jehovah's Witnesses. I wasn't born that way but I had a curiosity about God and Jesus so I joined them and I learned from them.

The JWs that I have seen here seem to be self-righteous. I think that most Jehovah's Witnesses are not that way. The average JW knows that most people do not know Jehovah and they just want to let you know that God is real and that there is a way to peace on Earth.

Ignorance is what they fear. Their work is to fix that. God bless them!

The_Fisher_King said:

If someone calls themselves a Muslim, to my mind they are claiming to be a Muslim. I don't really see the difference.

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The difference is in the tone. The word claim is used when some words have not been backed up with evidence and often when something doubtful has been said

Shakeel said:

The difference is in the tone. The word claim is used when some words have not been backed up with evidence and often when something doubtful has been said

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I disagree. I believe a claim to be simply a statement about a subject. Claims can be objective or subjective. They can be well-supported by evidence or not. They can be reasonable or not. So you or I can make a claim to be a Muslim and that can be a reasonable claim or not.

The_Fisher_King said:

I disagree. I believe a claim to be simply a statement about a subject. Claims can be objective or subjective. They can be well-supported by evidence or not. They can be reasonable or not. So you or I can make a claim to be a Muslim and that can be a reasonable claim or not.

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But if I tell you that you claim to be a Muslim, an average person would take that as an insult implying you're not a Muslim. It's very simple English language.

Shakeel said:

But if I tell you that you claim to be a Muslim, an average person would take that as an insult implying you're not a Muslim. It's very simple English language.

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I guess I'm not your average person, lol!

The_Fisher_King said:

I guess I'm not your average person, lol!

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I consider it more likely your identity as a Muslim, if you have one, is so weak you don't really care.

Shakeel said:

I consider it more likely your identity as a Muslim, if you have one, is so weak you don't really care.

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[sigh]

The_Fisher_King said:

If someone claims to be a Muslim and is sincere in their claims, I tend to take those claims seriously.

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I remember observing Christians battle about who was the real Christian, Hindus argue about who is a real Hindu, etc. Here we see it for Islam, and I assume most religions will have certain members claiming other sects aren't true, but theirs is.

In the end, after several years, I found it a fairly useless debate, serving little purpose. I meditated on it, and concluded that it disrespects the other side's right to a POV, which, again, isn't helpful, but could be hurtful. So I came up with a personal simplified solution and that is ... if a person calls himself/herself a _______ then that's enough to me. Just who the heck am I to make any other determination for another person? It respects that person's right to self-define who they are.