A common thread ?

Barry Johnson said:

I you say God speaks to us through the bible ,I assume you mean because of the verses that tell us this ? If there's errors in the bible. How do you know there not the errors . And what do you mean by errors? The bible says God preserves his word .

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Let me give you an example. There is a disparity over which day Jesus was crucified on. The synoptic gospels claim Jesus died on Passover. The gospel of John says the day before, which is known as the day of Preparation.

Matthew 26:17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

Mark 14:12 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

The Day of Preparation was the day that the Passover Lamb was sacrificed. All the cooking and whatnot was done to get ready for the Passover meal or "Seder" meal, which began the next day after sundown. (Remember that in Judaism, the next day always begins at sundown). Thus Jesus' Last Supper was a Seder Meal, and his death would have been on that Passover.

But John was different. John is the theologian of the gospel writers. His idea is that Jesus is the Passover Sacrifice, the Lamb of God. Well then, Jesus must die on the same day that the Passover lamb is sacrificed, which is not on Passover, not the day of the Seder Meal, but on the Day of Preparation.

John 19:14 It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon. “Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.

So which day was it? Because he couldn't have died on both days, right?

Barry Johnson said:

My position is i don't believe God is a bumbling idiot . So I seek to reconcile the bible with this in mind . The alternative is we have a God that says in the bible he will preserve his word and has failed .

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This is a false dichotomy*.

If there are errors in the bible that does not imply God is bumbling idiot. It only implies that if you think God wrote the bible, which quite obviously He did not. He spoke through fallible, mortal men. These men were prisoners of their time, culture and state if knowledge, as we all are. So it is only natural that there should be errors and inconsistencies in what they wrote.

One has to read the bible intelligently and critically in order to distinguish the underlying messages from some of the language, imagery, cultural assumptions etc., that are used.


* Why do so many fundies try to reduce the world to simple black and white all the time? Is the complexity of reality too hard to take in?

Barry Johnson said:

This is connected to my' EASILY DECIEVED ' Post
As a Christian I notice that other Religions, philosophies , spiritual practices and such all seem to have a common thread. ( I could have included this in my ' Easily deceived ' post )
This common idea is that other ' holy books ' contain truth from God also . I don't mean 'some true things ' ,but that the source itself is also from God ( with the caveat, that perhaps the message has been tainted or corrupted . Or even 'misunderstood ' / 'abused '.
In Contrast the bible does not say other books are from God or that they are inspired of God . No ,quite the opposite.

So as a discussion, Is the deception Either ( other options are available of course) that the majority have a shared general over view, and this demonstrates there is an overall truth, that everyone recognises in different forms ? Or is the bible warning of this very deception? That a sort of ecumenical view is what deceives people ,by this ' common thread ' . The Common thread ' is surprisingly very clear . Which i hope will be fleshed out through discussion . Perhaps I could have titled this ' is ecumenicalism ' the deception ? or something to the effect ( thinking on the fly here )
Thoughts ?

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In my view both exclusivism is wrong and complete ecumenism is wrong. Some practices are more wholesome in spiritual development than others while some may be completely unproductivite. Despite this there remains several practices and paths that are effective if done properly. It also depends on the practitioner. Any path or religion can prove counterproductive if the practioner does not bring the proper attitude towards it.

exchemist said:

This is a false dichotomy*.

If there are errors in the bible that does not imply God is bumbling idiot. It only implies that if you think God wrote the bible, which quite obviously He did not. He spoke through fallible, mortal men. These men were prisoners of their time, culture and state if knowledge, as we all are. So it is only natural that there should be errors and inconsistencies in what they wrote.

One has to read the bible intelligently and critically in order to distinguish the underlying messages from some of the language, imagery, cultural assumptions etc., that are used.


* Why do so many fundies try to reduce the world to simple black and white all the time? Is the complexity of reality too hard to take in?

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But that's not how the bible presents itself ( so to speak ) This would be contradictory to what the bible is saying . The bible does say his word will endure . This means all his words . It also says the scriptures are 'God breathed ', the the writers wrote under the inspiration of God ( and no this doesn't mean ' inspiration ' ,like an artist is' inspired' by a bowl of fruit) So if we have a bible full of errors and untruths ect then we have a problem with God .

Barry Johnson said:

This is connected to my' EASILY DECIEVED ' Post
As a Christian I notice that other Religions, philosophies , spiritual practices and such all seem to have a common thread. ( I could have included this in my ' Easily deceived ' post )
This common idea is that other ' holy books ' contain truth from God also . I don't mean 'some true things ' ,but that the source itself is also from God ( with the caveat, that perhaps the message has been tainted or corrupted . Or even 'misunderstood ' / 'abused '.
In Contrast the bible does not say other books are from God or that they are inspired of God . No ,quite the opposite.

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That begs the question: "Why did God give his words only to the tiny area of the world around the Middle East?"

It sort of makes sense that everyone's bible is a little wrong, after so many translations, etc. If you look at all of the various versions of the Christian bible, (NIV, KJ, etc), just within that Christian religion there are a huge number of different translations.

So, assuming that everyone is slightly wrong, but largely right, it would make sense to learn as much as possible from all religions and piece together the total message of God.

Many kings and religious leaders have altered the bible down through the years.

Also, since later translations were slightly wrong (perhaps of translation errors into another language), it would make sense to go to the earliest version of the bible (and that would likely be in Hebrew).

I can't help but think that God separated people at the tower of Babel for a reason. He made different races, different skin colors, different languages, different religions, and separated people into different areas. Could it have been God's plan to wait until we were mature enough to overcome bigotry and accept all of God's children as our own? Was it God's plan for us to merge the various truths of the bible to form one magnificent bible?

Clara Tea said:

That begs the question: "Why did God give his words only to the tiny area of the world around the Middle East?"

It sort of makes sense that everyone's bible is a little wrong, after so many translations, etc. If you look at all of the various versions of the Christian bible, (NIV, KJ, etc), just within that Christian religion there are a huge number of different translations.

So, assuming that everyone is slightly wrong, but largely right, it would make sense to learn as much as possible from all religions and piece together the total message of God.

Many kings and religious leaders have altered the bible down through the years.

Also, since later translations were slightly wrong (perhaps of translation errors into another language), it would make sense to go to the earliest version of the bible (and that would likely be in Hebrew).

I can't help but think that God separated people at the tower of Babel for a reason. He made different races, different skin colors, different languages, different religions, and separated people into different areas. Could it have been God's plan to wait until we were mature enough to overcome bigotry and accept all of God's children as our own? Was it God's plan for us to merge the various truths of the bible to form one magnificent bible?

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His word ( The gospel) spread through out the world. There are not many places of the world that are not reached by the message / bible/ Gospel . Many translations yes . some are terrible yes . The kjv is the one I use . Essentially the message of the gospel and the essentials of the faith are in all translations. Within reason ,because there really are some crazy ones . But these are minimum.

Barry Johnson said:

But that's not how the bible presents itself ( so to speak ) This would be contradictory to what the bible is saying . The bible does say his word will endure . This means all his words . It also says the scriptures are 'God breathed ', the the writers wrote under the inspiration of God ( and no this doesn't mean ' inspiration ' ,like an artist is' inspired' by a bowl of fruit) So if we have a bible full of errors and untruths ect then we have a problem with God .

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Men tend to exagerrate the amount of inspiration they actually get from God. Including the most pious folks. What Bible or any book is saying are nothing but claims of the people who wrote. One expects a lot of dross there along with the gold.

sayak83 said:

Men tend to exagerrate the amount of inspiration they actually get from God. Including the most pious folks. What Bible or any book is saying are nothing but claims of the people who wrote. One expects a lot of dross there along with the gold.

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My point was ,this is what the bible says. That its from God and it is true and that God cannot lie . It says his word will endure . No no one is forced to believe this ,but to say that it is filled with errors and contradictions, contradicts what the bible says about itself ( again, for want of better words to describe )

Barry Johnson said:

My point was ,this is what the bible says. That its from God and it is true and that God cannot lie . It says his word will endure . No no one is forced to believe this ,but to say that it is filled with errors and contradictions, contradicts what the bible says about itself ( again, for want of better words to describe )

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If it contradicts it contradicts. What of it?

sayak83 said:

If it contradicts it contradicts. What of it?

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If the the 66 books are from God ,and they have errors and contradictions then God is contradictory.

Clara Tea said:

So, assuming that everyone is slightly wrong, but largely right, it would make sense to learn as much as possible from all religions and piece together the total message of God.

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This is something that the Indian saints such as Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Vivekananda, Sri Ramakrishna, and others in their lines taught. Even Gandhi believed it. They weren’t teaching that all religions are the same, as many people misinterpret, because they’re not, rather that there’s one Truth we have to find. There’s lots of roads to Cleveland but only one Cleveland. Some people get lost and it takes them a long time but they eventually get there, some get there quickly, some never get there, but Cleveland is still there.

Barry Johnson said:

My point was ,this is what the bible says. That its from God and it is true and that God cannot lie . It says his word will endure . No no one is forced to believe this ,but to say that it is filled with errors and contradictions, contradicts what the bible says about itself ( again, for want of better words to describe )

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So how do you explain the contradictions in Genesis about the order of the creation of man and the animals? Not to mention:

Top 20 Most Damning Bible Contradictions
https://media.isnet.org/kmi/off/XXtian/101ContradictionsInTheBible.pdf

This is what happens when one believes something literally and backs oneself into a corner. I have a simpler explanation: don’t take it literally, but rather as a teaching device.

Does it matter if Adam and Eve existed? Or does it matter that we’re here to worship God? My Orthodox priest used to say this.
Does it matter if Judas kissed Jesus?

47. Did Judas kiss Jesus?
(a) Yes (Matthew 26:48-50)
(b) No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12) https://media.isnet.org/kmi/off/XXtian/101ContradictionsInTheBible.pdf

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What matters is that Jesus was betrayed and taken away to complete his mission. Sweat the details and miss the whole point and lessons. I’m still looking for the verse(s) where God says (after all, the Bible is the word of God!) “This is My word, these writings dictated by Me to My prophets are without error”. Still looking.

Barry Johnson said:

The bible says God preserves his word .

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Which verse do you refer to?

firedragon said:

Which verse do you refer to?

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Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Psalm 12:6,7 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matt. 5:18 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matt. 24:35 Add to these verses Psa. 33:11; 100:5; 105:8-10; 111:7,8; 117:2; 119:89, 152, 160; Isa. 40:8;, and I Tim. 6:14 Jesus stated this truth when he said, "...the Scripture cannot be broken."
KJV

Barry Johnson said:

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Psalm 12:6,7 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matt. 5:18 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matt. 24:35 Add to these verses Psa. 33:11; 100:5; 105:8-10; 111:7,8; 117:2; 119:89, 152, 160; Isa. 40:8;, and I Tim. 6:14 Jesus stated this truth when he said, "...the Scripture cannot be broken."
KJV

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Does any of these verses specifically say that the Bible will be preserved?

Anyway,
1. do you believe the Epistle of Barnabas is Gods word?
2. If so why is it not in the Bible anymore,
3. if it is not, why was it in the Bible in the first place?
4. If the Bible will always be preserved how could someone insert the Epistle of Barnabas among other books into the Bible?

firedragon said:

Does any of these verses specifically say that the Bible will be preserved?

Anyway,
1. do you believe the Epistle of Barnabas is Gods word?
2. If so why is it not in the Bible anymore,
3. if it is not, why was it in the Bible in the first place?
4. If the Bible will always be preserved how could someone insert the Epistle of Barnabas among other books into the Bible?

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Has the epistle of Barnabas endured ? Has it ever been included ? Is there any reason it should be ?

Barry Johnson said:

Has the epistle of Barnabas endured ? Has it ever been included ? Is there any reason it should be ?

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Yes.
Yes.
At one point, the christians though so. Obviously.

firedragon said:

Yes.
Yes.
At one point, the christians though so. Obviously.

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I find no bible with it included today . My bible has 66 books and is Just fine .

Barry Johnson said:

I find no bible with it included today . My bible has 66 books and is Just fine .

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I was not talking about today. GO back to my question.
,
1. do you believe the Epistle of Barnabas is Gods word?
2. If so why is it not in the Bible anymore,
3. if it is not, why was it in the Bible in the first place?
4. If the Bible will always be preserved how could someone insert the Epistle of Barnabas among other books into the Bible?

firedragon said:

I was not talking about today. GO back to my question.
,
1. do you believe the Epistle of Barnabas is Gods word?
2. If so why is it not in the Bible anymore,
3. if it is not, why was it in the Bible in the first place?
4. If the Bible will always be preserved how could someone insert the Epistle of Barnabas among other books into the Bible?

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1 ) No ,in the sense of what we have as the 66 books today . No other writings are considered inspired . Again Gods word has endured .

2)The text was included at the end of some early copies of the Bible, where it might have been considered as a reference
. Early church fathers said stuff blah blah , Origen said stuff ,blah blah .
No one considers them inspred today. But who cares . The bible every Christian has today ( Not Roman Catholics ) contain the words that have endured. 66 books . I read the Kjv . Barney is absent .
3) Already covered .
4) Folks do stuff and add stuff ,but look today is it there ? No ,it was a reference in SOME early bibles . You can still by reference bibles today. The references are not Scripture or considered so . Have you read Barneys epsitle ? I ve no problem with it . It may have some interesting stuff in it . Like the book of Enoch . But its not inspired .