It was not a miracle. It was divination - a practice condemned by God, because it involves getting in contact with wicked spirits - demons. Not in harmony with Mark 9:39
So in numerous parts of the new testament, there are incidences where 'the holy spirit' fills a person as well, and this person also describes and proclaims the 'truth' as a 'christian truth,' and also as a timeless truth. Timeless, because if you can divine what is to be, then even the concept of time is pacified. If a 'random' spirit infects the woman, from wherever it might come, and makes her to preach about christianity, how is it a bad spirit? Why didn't paul try to purchase her for example, and employ her abilities elsewhere?
As well, your bible does employ the use of the 'urim and thummin,' (sp) which might have been divinatory dice or something
And also, paul eats food 'consecrated to idols,' if my memory is correct, because it serves a 'higher purpose.' If by divining, more converts are made, and more area is covered, then how is that different than 'eating food for idols,' if ends justify means
The difference is that divination is the term used for predictions considered part of a religious ritual, invoking deities or spirits, while the term fortune telling implies a less serious or formal setting, even one of popular culture, where belief in occult workings behind the prediction is less prominent than the concept of suggestion, spiritual or practical advisory or affirmation.
Again, what about the idea of being 'filled with the holy spirit,' and all the effects that follow.. talking in tongues, talking about the holy greatness of god, etc. Somehow when that happens, the spirit isn't considered evil. But those people would do pretty much the same thing as the woman
Well, I thought that in the broader christian tradition, production (of art, theology, etc.) was generally thought to be channeled from or inspired by god. It has to do, I thought, with how an individual might master his/her usage of the logos, the christian spiritual tool that produces all that ever was, or will be. The idea, I guess, is that the logos was preconceived before any human existed, and by becoming inspired by it, and using it as your guiding tool, you expand your vision of the plane of reality. And if that means seeing across a span of time, or seeing time as artificial (which is what any divination would see or conclude) since some truth is 'going to happen,' then I don't see how a diviner, preaching christianity, does not facilitate christianity
So in numerous parts of the new testament, there are incidences where 'the holy spirit' fills a person as well, and this person also describes and proclaims the 'truth' as a 'christian truth,' and also as a timeless truth. If a 'random' spirit infects the woman, from wherever it might come, and makes her to preach about christianity, how is it a bad spirit? Why didn't paul try to purchase her for example, and employ her abilities elsewhere?
The truth was taught by Jesus.
The persons who were filled with holy spirit, when Jesus left the earth, spoke the things Jesus taught.
Aside from those Christians, the only persons who spoke by holy spirit, were faithful Jews, like Mary, Elizabeth, Zechariah, and Anna.
If I left out anyone, you can remind me.
These were already serving God, not as Christians, but Jewish worshipers. Zechariah was a priest, and Anna, I think, was a prophetess.
God spoke by these before Jesus came. After Jesus came, God spoke by him. Hebrews 1:1, 2 When Jesus left the earth, he directed his followers by the holy spirit, but they spoke what he taugh. John 14:26
Or an angel spoke to them.
The woman was not preaching Christianity.
Think of it this way. The postman brings your letters. You appreciate that. Would you like it, if a known burglar and thief started collecting and bringing your mail?
You might call the post office to inquire about an expected check.
The truth is, both Jesus and the apostles silenced the demons because they know they are deceptive, and do not want their testimony. When they speak truth, and then follow up with lies, how would one differentiate.
It's deceptive, and the apostles knew that.
That's interesting. Someone raised a similar suggestion, I recall.
Listening to Jehovah, and listening to demons are two different things.
Performing miracles from God, and performing magic by Satan and the demons are two different things.
Worshipping the true God - pure worship, and worshiping Satan and the demons - false worship are two different things.
There is truth and false.
Often, the false can look like, or imitate the true... like counterfeit money.
It's up to an individual to be able to tell the difference.
If we can't identify real money, from counterfeit, we can be in some serious financial trouble.
If we can't identify God's things from the things of Satan, or the demons, we are in serious spiritual danger.
Again, what about the idea of being 'filled with the holy spirit,' and all the effects that follow.. talking in tongues, talking about the holy greatness of god, etc. Somehow when that happens, the spirit isn't considered evil. But those people would do pretty much the same thing as the woman
Good point.
That's exactly the reason we need to be able to make the distinction.
How can we do so?
The Jews were God's chosen people. Worship at the temple was acceptable to God... actually directed by him, in the way he outlined. Not under a tree, or on a high place; or in the temple of Marduk, etc.
When Jesus came, worship that was acceptable by God was as outlined by Christ.
The disciples - his followers were known as "The Way".
One who followed the program - that is, the scriptures leading up to Messiah, and the followings of the Messiah, would have no problem identifying the way.
Today, we have both the scriptures leading to Messiah, and the scriptures by the following of the Messiah.
These serve as a guide to making the distinction.
They help us to see that being filled with holy spirit, was this way...
(Acts 2:6) . . .So when this sound occurred, a crowd gathered and was bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
Not this way...
Speaking in tongues served its purpose, as the followers of Christ spread the good news in different languages.
(Acts 2:7-11) 7. . .all these who are speaking are Gal·i·leʹans, are they not? 8 How is it, then, that each one of us is hearing his own native language? 9 Parʹthi·ans, Medes, and Eʹlam·ites, the inhabitants of Mes·o·po·taʹmi·a, Ju·deʹa and Cap·pa·doʹci·a, Ponʹtus and the province of Asia, 10 Phrygʹi·a and Pam·phylʹi·a, Egypt and the regions of Libʹy·a near Cy·reʹne, sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Creʹtans, and Arabians—we hear them speaking in our languages about the magnificent things of God.”
Babbling does not help one understand the things of God.
The apostle Paul said...
(1 Corinthians 12:4-11) 4 Now there are different gifts, but there is the same spirit; 5 and there are different ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; 6 and there are different activities, and yet it is the same God who performs them all in everyone. 7 But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose.8 For to one is given speech of wisdom through the spirit, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit, 9 to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, 10 to yet another operations of powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of inspired expressions, to another different tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues.11 But all these operations are performed by the very same spirit, distributing to each one respectively just as it wills.
(1 Corinthians 13:8) Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with.
Well, I thought that in the broader christian tradition, production (of art, theology, etc.) was generally thought to be channeled from or inspired by god
First site I found
Acts 16:16-19
Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit
by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.
She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who
are telling you the way to be saved.” She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed
that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of
her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
When her owners realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and
dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities.
Aside from those Christians, the only persons who spoke by holy spirit, were faithful Jews, like Mary, Elizabeth, Zechariah, and Anna.
If I left out anyone, you can remind me.
And a few gentiles though, right.. one I think was Balaam.. the people in the story of Job, so I would assume the writer may have been.. and didn't Jonah involve a gentile city. Anyway, point being that these stories might illustrate some amount of spiritual diffusion
Think of it this way. The postman brings your letters. You appreciate that. Would you like it, if a known burglar and thief started collecting and bringing your mail?
How do you know who the thief is in Luke 12:39? What a better way than divination, where a spirit shows you more about what is going on around you, in the present and into the future
You know, I think this is getting toward being a bit of a debate, though I didn't really intend that. So, I suggest maybe you might start a debating thread if you want to discuss this more. I mean, the more I think about it, the more confusing all this is. Who or what are the 'demons' that are running throug the new testament, and actually will often preach, or cause the person to preach about Jesus? It is very confusing to see why they would be erring, (both demons or their possessed humans) in the christian system, which implores individuals to spread the faith, if they cause the possee' to actually preach and prophecy
(1 Corinthians 12:4-11) 4 Now there are different gifts, but there is the same spirit; 5 and there are different ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; 6 and there are different activities, and yet it is the same God who performs them all in everyone. 7 But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose.8 For to one is given speech of wisdom through the spirit, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit, 9 to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, 10 to yet another operations of powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of inspired expressions, to another different tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues.11 But all these operations are performed by the very same spirit, distributing to each one respectively just as it wills.
And I just don't see how a passage like that conflicts with the idea of a random spirit possessing someone, and making them do all those same things.. How did the slave woman not do any of those things, when some spirit was in her? I don't understand how it was malevolent to the christian mission, at all
One way to see it is that It mention divination as in example using tarot card to "know" the future, according to not only Christianity it should not be used, because it can diviate the religious person away from God, and it can make more attachments.
Same with Quija board ( do stay away from it) it can open gates to the wrong world. and Frank you do not wish to go there. So do not try
Hm, well to me the story just seems to add questions.. what happened to this woman, if she couldn't make money any more? Was she not aiding the evangelization process?
I don't think she was aiding the process. The correct translation is "....a way of salvation...." which suggests there are others.
Acts 4:12 says that the name of Jesus is the only way of salvation.
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
19 When her owners realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities.
Not so sure. Anyone would become annoyed with any person shouting at them for several days over wouldn't it bother you if you had someone on your porch every single day, yelling at you at 8:00am in the morning - YOUR MAIL IS HERE YOUR MAIL IS HERE ~ and you haven't even woke up yet from your slumber though have now. YOUR MAIL HERE.
Everyone in life has become annoyed with something someone is doing in their life, unless we are perfect and nothing ever bothers us.
There have been times where I have been annoyed with someone and we would have to take a break from each other for a little bit before we would talk again, it is part of the experience in life in trying to deal and be patient with others, and sometimes after a few days you can have enough about whatever it is someone is constantly buggering you about.
Life is far from easy, it is very tough to live and it is hard have peace while living through it at least from my perception, Oldbadger.
And a few gentiles though, right.. one I think was Balaam.. the people in the story of Job, so I would assume the writer may have been.. and didn't Jonah involve a gentile city. Anyway, point being that these stories might illustrate some amount of spiritual diffusion
Reading the Bible is one thing. Understanding the Bible, is another.
Doing both is like being in a Mathematics, or Science class. It's not just a history lesson.
One has to understand the basics before they can get to the intermediate, or advanced.
If one thinks they have reached the advanced stage, when they really don't understand the preceding levels, they will mislead themselves.
Imagine a donkey talking to a man. Sounds like one of those stories you tell children, right.
A donkey does not have the intelligence of a man. It cannot decide what is morally right or wrong.
God chose to communicate through the donkey. Why?
The Bible says... Balaam "was reproved for his own violation of what was right. A voiceless beast of burden speaking with a human voice hindered the prophet’s mad course." (2 Peter 2:16)
God chose to use a less intelligent source to show Balaam he was not acting sensibly.
When we think about that account, and meditate on it - that is ponder, ask questions, such as we just did, we get to understand some things.
From my reading the account of Balaam, along with other details throughout scripture, and putting them all together, I understand that just as God can use a beast, God can use anyone he pleases so as to accomplish his will, and he can use any means he chooses, to do so.
For example... Read Ezekiel 38
There we see God says,
“Here I am against you, O Gog, head chieftain ...I will turn you around and put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in splendor, a vast assembly with large shields and bucklers, all of them wielding swords... you will invade the land whose people have been restored from the ravages of the sword, collected together out of many peoples onto the mountains of Israel, which had long been lying devastated. The inhabitants of this land were restored from the peoples, and all of them dwell in security. You will come against them like a storm, and you will cover the land like clouds, you and all your troops and many peoples with you.
In that day thoughts will come into your heart, and you will devise an evil plan. You will say: “I will invade the land of unprotected settlements. I will come against those living in security, without disturbance, all of them living in settlements unprotected by walls, bars, or gates.”
Then strange as it seems, God says this...
“‘On that day, the day when Gog invades the land of Israel,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘my great rage will flare up. In my zeal, in the fire of my fury, I will speak; and in that day there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.
I will call for a sword against him on all my mountains,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. ‘Every man’s sword will be against his own brother. I will bring my judgment against him with pestilence and bloodshed; and I will rain down a torrential downpour and hailstones and fire and sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many peoples with him. And I will certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.’"
Wow. What just happened there, is that Jehovah - the almighty one, gave Gog what he wanted, but in a way he did not want it.
It was Gog's desire to destroy these people.
The Bible says God "put hooks in his jaw, and turned him around"... to attack his people.
We understand that God provided the opportunity for Gog to devise an 'evil plan' to exterminate these people. Why? It was God's time to act against Gog and the nations. It was his time to sanctify his name.
A similar situation is described at Revelation 17 16 ...the ten horns that you saw and the wild beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire. 17 For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished
I hope you grasped the point.
God does things his way. Not the way man thinks is right. That's the way it is.
Man can complain, until the day of his death. The fact will remain, It is what it is, and that's the way it is.
(Ezekiel 18:25) “‘And YOU people will certainly say: “The way of Jehovah is not adjusted right.” Hear, please, O house of Israel. Is not my own way adjusted right? Are not the ways of YOU people not adjusted right?
I know it may be hard for you to understand, but that's the way it is. No one can change how it is, because God is the one is in control.
How do you know who the thief is in Luke 12:39? What a better way than divination, where a spirit shows you more about what is going on around you, in the present and into the future
This one is easy.
Just read the previous verses. Luke 12:32-38 and the subsequent Luke 12:40-44
Then ask yourself did Peter and the other apostles have any problem identifying the master?
When Paul cast out the demon, did he have any doubt who the demon represented? Did he think for one second, he was against Jesus?
Do you know of any eagle that cannot identify a carcass?
(Matthew 24:28) . . .Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. See Luke 17:37
This is how we know the difference between an eagle, and an "eagle" - between real money, amd counterfeit (true, and false).
With divination, spirits do not show you what is going on around you, without an ulterior motive which is detrimental to you. They otherwise blind you. They show you mostly what you want to see.
The bird that sees the crumbs, do not see the trap of the bird catcher.
Will a bird fall into a trap on the ground when there is no snare for it? Does a trap spring up from the ground when it has caught nothing? (Amos 3:5)
Those who are wise, listen to Jehovah, and are protected from the traps of the bird catcher.
(Psalm 91:1-6) 1 Anyone dwelling in the secret place of the Most High Will lodge under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say to Jehovah: “You are my refuge and my stronghold, My God in whom I trust.” 3 For he will rescue you from the trap of the birdcatcher, From the destructive pestilence. 4 With his pinions he will cover you, And under his wings you will take refuge. His faithfulness will be a large shield and a protective wall. 5 You will not fear the terrors of the night, Nor the arrow that flies by day, 6 Nor the pestilence that stalks in the gloom, Nor the destruction that ravages at midday.
Recall the Devil always mixes a bit of truth with the lie.
When he temped Jesus, he used a bit of bait.
The Devil said... “If you are a son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written..." (Matthew 4:6) The Devil used scripture too, but Jesus did not bite.
Why not? Jesus listened to, and obeyed the father. If we do the same, we will avoid falling victim to the snares of the Devil. (2 Timothy 2:26)
You know, I think this is getting toward being a bit of a debate, though I didn't really intend that. So, I suggest maybe you might start a debating thread if you want to discuss this more. I mean, the more I think about it, the more confusing all this is. Who or what are the 'demons' that are running throug the new testament, and actually will often preach, or cause the person to preach about Jesus? It is very confusing to see why they would be erring, (both demons or their possessed humans) in the christian system, which implores individuals to spread the faith, if they cause the possee' to actually preach and prophecy
I understand.
This forum is Q&A.
We could ask the mods if they can move the thread to religious debates, is that's okay with @Frank Goad.
I think it's a good topic to discuss from the verses in the OP.
I can create a thread on Demons, if you want to discuss that.
And I just don't see how a passage like that conflicts with the idea of a random spirit possessing someone, and making them do all those same things.. How did the slave woman not do any of those things, when some spirit was in her? I don't understand how it was malevolent to the christian mission, at all
I don't think the dumbest crook doesn't know how to play tricks.
Pedophiles who want your little daughter or son, may come to your house and say, "Your dad is such a great dad, He keeps the yard clean. He looks after you so well."
While he is speaking the truth. His motive for doing so, is sinister, and dangerous for you, if you don't see it.... not to mention, seriously dangerous for your children.
Suppose you, as dad, is both naive, and ignorant, can you see the danger? You wouldn't.
Similarly, if we don't see that there is good and bad, and a battle between the two, and see the need to make the distinction, because there is one, we will be blind to what is, and that will be detrimental to us.
......... if you had someone on your porch every single day, yelling at you at 8:00am in the morning - YOUR MAIL IS HERE YOUR MAIL IS HERE ~ and you haven't even woke up yet from your slumber though have now. YOUR MAIL HERE.
,.......,
