Why would lying be a power?
Bible stories is god?
You are aware of people who make good, mature decisions, yes? They have free will. Free will doesn't mean you're a screw up.
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If humans can't unite on religion, is there a purpose to religion?
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That's a good point. Pete didn't really provide a very comprehensive list. And the idea of higher power/god is quite a prevalent element in most all cultures. people adopt these ideas without any conscious awareness they're doing it. These ideas become part of a person's basic operating system and once it's there it's hard to remove.
All this points to a god who can't do a very good job. Sabotaging A&E. The global flood (if you believe that). The flood not fixing anything and needing to send jesus. Did that fix anything?
Look at the evolution of religion in human history. Initially, it was spiritualistic, with the various domains of daily life being controlled by one agent or another, often viewed as animals. This was before man had a concept of intelligence, and was still unable to dominate these animals. They were seen as man's superior because they were faster, stronger, could fly, etc., and the animals were worshiped and honored.
As man came to see himself as equal or superior to the beasts, the animal pantheons became half human - centaurs, minotaurs, Anubis, Horis, etc..
Then these became humanlike pantheons as with the Greeks and Vikings, followed by monotheism with manlike gods ruling the cosmos, then deism, and finally, atheism.
But as with biological evolution, the advent of new forms doesn't mean that the ancestral forms have disappeared. There are still polytheistic religions. I believe the Druids are one. And there are still monotheists and deists.
I would agree with this apart from following the path of my ancestors, or that I am lost in a maze, unless that only refers to childhood.
But yes, we are well advised to each determine what we consider knowledge ourselves if we have the skills to do that. That requires skill in critical thinking and exposure to a variety of ideas.
But that's not religion. I was in a religion for ten years through my twenties - Protestant Christianity. Critical thinking and looking outside the faith for guidance were discouraged. It wasn't until I left religion that I began to consider other ideas, and after about five years of exploration, I settled on a worldview that I later learned was called secular humanism, or basically, a godless metaphysics with a rational ethics and epistemology, the natural final position for anybody recognizing the problem with faith-based thinking and systematically trying to eliminate it from one's way of deciding what is true about the world. I don't limit this to religious belief like creationism. If you think that the last American election was rigged, that the coronavirus is a hoax or a conspiracy, that the earth is flat, that man never went to the moon, that climate change is a hoax, etc., then you are engaging in faith-based thinking as well
So, I agree with your source, but I never consulted it to come to that conclusion.
Nobody but my own faculties of reason and conscience.
Nah. There's millions, if by truth you mean the ideas that accurately allow one to predict and perhaps control outcomes. Skepticism and reason properly applied to the relevant evidence is the path to truth. It does not involve believing any spiritual leader, prophet, guru, or messenger. We make these discoveries individually and empirically, judging the truth-value of an idea by its ability to help us produce desired outcomes and escape pitfalls.
I consider myself more qualified to give life advice than most of the people offering it unsolicited to me and others, but I don't do it because it's arrogant and impolite, like correcting somebody's grammatical mistake. In fact, if people came to me for such answers, I would be like Monty Python's Brian or Forrest Gump, unwillingly pursued by throngs of devotees. My answer would be to go find your own truth, which you'll never do looking for somebody to follow.
I consider it unhealthy to submit oneself to another's ism. People in the religions don't seem to have any extra answers - just beliefs that they remain dependent upon, beliefs they would have outgrown had they matured outside of religion, and which do nothing for them except continue to comfort them in ways the unbeliever doesn't need. I'm perfectly content with the idea that I may not have an afterlife and that there might be no god. What does religion have to offer a mature secular humanist?
When believers tell me how much their religion helps them, I think of a person who needs glasses to read and tells me how great glasses are. I think it's great that people who need religion or glasses have them, but I prefer to not need either.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You just described the process of the evolution of humans over time, and religion also evolves over time, to accommodate those changes. Some people prefer the older forms, and that is why polytheist religions still exist.
Not everyone is lost in a maze, he was only speaking about society generally, which is mostly religious. Atheists who left Christianity have extricated themselves from this maze of tradition but the adherents to the older religions haven't.
If one believes that Christianity is the only alternative I can see why they would become a humanist, when they finally wake up and smell the coffee. It is sad what Christianity has done to tarnish God's image, especially Protestant Christianity. If they are so sure of themselves why do they discourage people from seeking outside? Well because they believe they have the only way and the only truth. They cannot grasp that John 14:6 was written to apply to only one age in history.
No, no atheists I know needed to consult any sources to figure this out.
Please read Genesis 2:17 because God educated that breaking the Law (do Not eat from the forbidden tree) would end up in: death.
So, I don't see that the given Law was without understanding: You eat You die.
The consequence was obvious.
Even if you step on a bug you can observe what death is.That dead bug never moves again but goes back to dust.
If you had a neighbor with many fruit trees and told you come over any time and have a much fruit as you want, 'except for one fruit tree', would you consider your generous neighbor as sabotaging you _________
Sure, the Flood fixed something, without the Flood righteous Noah and family would Not have survived.
Those violent people would have killed off everyone righteous and No one righteous would be left on Earth.
Righteous Jesus came through Noah, so without any righteous person left on Earth then No Jesus (Messiah) to come.
Jesus (Messiah) will fix this broken world. The 'sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth' will rid the Earth of the wicked - see Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
If this verse refers to physical death, then why didn't Adam die in the day they ate the fruit?
Adam and Eve had “other sons and daughters,” and death came to Adam at the age of 930. Adam and Eve, Solnhofen stone relief by Loy Hering, c.
Adam and Eve | Story, Meaning, & Facts | Britannica
I believe this verse refers to spiritual death, not physical death. Otherwise that would make God a liar.
You're actually helping me make my case. So God actually told them that breaking the law would lead to consequences, death, yet they weren't smart enough to get it. A smart, mature, wise being would understand the consequences and obey the rules. God could have made them able to understand, but it didn't. If the creator can't make beings capable of obedience then it shouldn't be setting rules for them to obey.
Or there was ulterior motives and it was a set up. If a God really wanted obedient beings don't you think it would do it?
Generous guy. But if he said don't eat from one of them or he'd shoot me, I'd not pick fruit from that one tree. That's because I'm wise and able to make a mature decision and respect his wishes. Would you?
the flood killed a lot of innocent people and animals. And as we know Noah got drunk and at some point there was incest going on. And the world continued to be corrupt. So what got fixed? Why did Jesus have to come despite that fix?
Is this from watching to movie?
He had to, incest. And eventually celestial rape.
But he wasn't righteous.
Well 2000 years and it's not looking good. Maybe Islam is what you should be looking at.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Had there ever really been an Adam and Eve, they would have been capable of obedience, but since all humans have free will, they could choose to obey or disobey God. So it s not they they did not understand, it is that they chose to disobey God.
God never said that disobeying would lead to physical death, Christians just assumed that is what Gen 2:17 means.
I believe this verse refers to spiritual death, not physical death. Otherwise that would make God a liar since He said to Adam he would die the day they ate the fruit and Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit. Adam lived to be 930, or at least as the story goes.
Exactly as they were created to do. A&E were supposed to be perfect beings, yet they didn't have to sense to think about the consequence of a serious threat of death. Not very perfect. If the Creator knew what it was doing it would have created wise people who would know better than to make such a foolish decision. If you were in Adam's place, would you find yourself making such a foolish choice?
The problem is how Christian fundamentalists interpret Genesis. Even Jews don't interpret it that way and it's their book.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Well, since I do not believe that is a true story I do not think about what A&E allegedly did. The whole story is just silly to me, the idea that the Almighty God who created the heavens and the earth came and tempted these two people in a garden is ludicrous, and what is more ludicrous is how many millions if people believe it. That just goes to show the power of tradition and indoctrination.
Below is what Baha'is believe about the Tree of Life compared to the Christian belief.
Christians believe that the tree of life was a source of ongoing physical life, that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life.
The Meaning of the Tree of Life
“God told Adam not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, with the words, "For on the day that you eat of it, you will surely die". But there was no such prohibition concerning the Tree of Life. If Adam had eaten from that tree, he would have lived forever and never died. Instead he and his wife ended up eating from the forbidden tree, because they listened to a voice which tempted them to doubt the goodness of God. This is Satan’s tactic today with us. We neglect the LIFE God gives and end up trying to attain it by going on a path forbidden by God.
How good it would have been had Adam instead chosen to eat from the Tree of Life! God had said, "Of every tree in the garden you may freely eat…" Adam could have eaten from the Tree of Life! In doing so, he would have known God in an even greater way, and would never have died in any way! If he had eaten of the Tree of Life, he would never have been interested in the forbidden tree. But having NEGLECTED the tree of life, it was really only a matter of time before he would fall to the temptation of eating the forbidden fruit.”
https://www.christian-faith.com/meaning-tree-life/
By contrast to the Christian belief, Baha’is believe that the tree of life is symbolic for the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His Manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the heavenly realm.
Every human born is subject to physical death and has been long before Adam and Eve, since some form of humans have existed on earth for 200,000 years. People are born and then they die, because God made our bodies that way, as mortal.
It certainly is a problem, a serious problem! It is completely insane to believe that if A&E had not eaten an apple form a tree neither they nor anyone else would never have died from that time on. How would that work if nobody ever died, how could new people be born and live on earth forever? I guess they never thought that through, they just believe what they have been taught by the Church, even now in the age of science. Such is the power of belief.
It does. Religion is a social phenomenon and behavior and it can spread like a virus. This is why it's wise to assess claims objectively and not be too eager to believe any of it.
At best scholars can assess what the original meaning was for this idea. To my mind it should all be considered history and not something to be believed in.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, it is always wise to thoroughly assess any religious claims before believing in them.
That is true in the sense that the Tree of Life never existed, it was just a symbol, so it is just a matter of what it symbolized. Opinions will vary.
I think ^ above ^ you are speaking about a literal or actual 24-hour day.
In 'Bible speak' the word ' day ' has shades of meaning. Jesus spoke of Noah's day which was more than 24 hours.
This is also true of our day when we speak of grandfather's day and we know that is Not a 24-hour day.
Even ALL of the ' creative days ' please notice are summed up by the word ' day ' at Genesis 2:4.
Since in God's eyes a 'thousand years is as a day ' ( Psalms 90:4; 2 Peter 3:8) then God was speaking about a thousand-year day or time frame - besides Adam, please notice who else died before age 1,000 at Genesis 5:5; Genesis 5:27.
Even Judgement Day ( the day to clear things up) is Not a 24 hour day but a thousand-year day.
-1 Corinthians 15:24-26
.... and we find the RETURN of the Genesis Tree of Life on Earth as found recorded at Revelation 22:2.
Sure God wants obedient people (and angels) but God forces No one to obey Him.
It was angelic ulterior-motive Satan (that snake in the grass) that set up Eve, Not God. Genesis 3:1-6.
Satan ( the father of the lie ) told the first lie at Genesis 3:4.
Thus, Satan was implying to Eve she would be better off and be her own goddess.
She should choose right and wrong for herself.
Eve ' saw ' the fruit was good to eat - Genesis 3:6.
Eve could have 'observed' some animals eating it and Not dying. Remember the tree was Not poison.
It was the breaking of the Law of the Land (of Eden) that carried the death penalty.
Satan deceived Eve with faulty reasoning that she could know better than God. - 1 Timothy 2:14.
Please notice who Eve said was the Master of Deception according to Genesis 3:13.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree that the word ' day ' in the Bible has various shades of meaning, but that is neither here nor there. Let's get back to Genesis.
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
God did not say that Adam would not have died physically if Adam had not eaten the fruit. God did not say "because you ate the fruit from the Tree of Good and Evil you will die physically, but it you had not eaten that fruit you would have lived forever in the same physical body."
That's right. Judgement Day in my beliefs refers to the thousand-year reign of Baha'u'llah during the messianic age.
"In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living."
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 220
From: The Day of Judgment
The day of Judgment is a thousand year period of time which occurs during the messianic age.
how long is the messianic age?
In the Baháʼí Faith, the "Messianic Age" refers to a 1000-year period beginning with the Declaration of Baháʼu'lláh in 1863. Baháʼís believe the period of peace and prosperity is gradually unfolding and will culminate in the appearance of "The Most Great Peace".
Messianic Age - Wikipedia
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Baha'is do not believe that the Tree of Life was an actual tree that grew out of the ground, not in Genesis and not in Revelation 22:2. Bahais believe that the Tree of Life represents the Word of God which bestows eternal life, which is not physical life but rather spiritual life.
It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)
“The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 124
From: 30: ADAM AND EVE
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The RETURN of the Tree of Life was the return of the Christ Spirit in the person of Baha'u'llah. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations, which is what Baha'u'llah came to accomplish.
“Cling ye, with your inmost hearts, to the Cause of God, a Cause that hath been sent down by Him Who is the Ordainer, the All-Wise. We have, with the utmost kindliness and mercy, summoned and directed all peoples and nations to that which shall truly profit them.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 270