Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Metis, I knew you wouldn’t answer properly because the creed would expose your fantasy...
No sweat, guy, you were never an honest debater anyway!
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"What Jesus REALLY meant was ...."
- Thread starter John1.12
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No sweat, guy, you were never an honest debater anyway!
In context the kjv is the most reliable. imo
It might be helpful if you Google what the ' trinity ' is and means. Jesus is God ,the Father is God , the Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son ,the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Father is not the Holy Spirit .God is the being and essence the three ' persons share. Co equal , co eternal. One God . Three distinct persons within the God head . Dont look for any natural explanation or analogies as we don't exist like this . But God does .
God ' manifest ' in the flesh . Not the father . The Father dwells in unapproachable light .
Clarifying LDS Christian views on God, in comparison to Creedal views:
Both LDS Christians and Creedal Christians believe the following:
- The Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 different persons in 1 God.
- Example of them being 3 persons: Christ's baptism the Son of God was getting baptized, the Father from Heaven stating He was well pleased, and Holy Spirit defending like a dove.
- Example of them being 1 God: they are completely one in their will, goodness, grace, mercy, justice, etc. To follow the promptings of the Spirit is to follow the instructions of the Son. To honor the Son is to honor the Father, etc. The Father is the Father of all.
- The Father, Son, and Spirit are all perfectly Good, glorious, righteous, eternal, powerful, etc.
- Jesus Christ, the Son of God, created the world under the guidance of the Father. He was born to a mortal life of the virgin Mary. He lived a perfect life, always fulfilling the will of the Father. Still, he did suffer mortal wounds as we all do-- hunger, sickness, temptation, and even death. He suffered & died for each of our sins, and rose again on the third day.
- A Christian is a disciple of Christ. We are saved through faith in Him.
Differences in belief:
- The Athanasian Creed states that the Father, Son, and Spirit are also one through a shared substance. LDS Christians do not share this view.
Common false myths about what LDS Christians believe:
- Any special relationship between Christ and Lucifer that doesn't also apply to every single other person.
- Anything that tries to diminish the divinity of Christ. Such is downright insulting: He is everything.
- Speculations about the Father's past: such are speculations only that aren't even talked about in LDS Christian churches and views on them vary greatly.
Both LDS Christians and Creedal Christians believe the following:
- The Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 different persons in 1 God.
- Example of them being 3 persons: Christ's baptism the Son of God was getting baptized, the Father from Heaven stating He was well pleased, and Holy Spirit defending like a dove.
- Example of them being 1 God: they are completely one in their will, goodness, grace, mercy, justice, etc. To follow the promptings of the Spirit is to follow the instructions of the Son. To honor the Son is to honor the Father, etc. The Father is the Father of all.
- The Father, Son, and Spirit are all perfectly Good, glorious, righteous, eternal, powerful, etc.
- Jesus Christ, the Son of God, created the world under the guidance of the Father. He was born to a mortal life of the virgin Mary. He lived a perfect life, always fulfilling the will of the Father. Still, he did suffer mortal wounds as we all do-- hunger, sickness, temptation, and even death. He suffered & died for each of our sins, and rose again on the third day.
- A Christian is a disciple of Christ. We are saved through faith in Him.
Differences in belief:
- The Athanasian Creed states that the Father, Son, and Spirit are also one through a shared substance. LDS Christians do not share this view.
Common false myths about what LDS Christians believe:
- Any special relationship between Christ and Lucifer that doesn't also apply to every single other person.
- Anything that tries to diminish the divinity of Christ. Such is downright insulting: He is everything.
- Speculations about the Father's past: such are speculations only that aren't even talked about in LDS Christian churches and views on them vary greatly.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
It's certainly the most majestic and beautiful English translation. I think it's now widely accepted that there were some errors of translation, particularly from the Hebrew (less so from the Greek), but aesthetics are important. The KJV will never be bettered in English imo., certainly not poetically.
In his riveting account of the KJV translation, "When God Spoke English", Adam Nicolson makes the point that the translators used English in a way which combined both clarity and grandeur; and that this was a function of the stated goal, to satisfy both Puritan and High Church sensibilities.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Barry, you have uncovered your error and are trying to squirm away. Every time you post you expose your ignorance on what you say:
Interesting that you say ‘we don’t exist like that’ yet you agree that:
- ‘Man is made in the image of God’
So, Barry, if Jesus is image of God, and Jesus IS GOD, then what exactly is the image of God in the Son of God....
- ‘Recursion is the order of the day, here’
- The trinity God is a recursive God
- The members of the trinity God are images of themselves as God of themselves.
- The Father is God
- The Son is God
- The Holy Spirit is God
- But they are not three GODS but one God
- God came in the flesh...
How do you answer?
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What ever the history ( and I like your points ) the proof is in the tasting so to speak . I have studied with a small group using various translations ,each time the KJV proved reliable when there's a 'difficult 'text and making sense of the context. The 'modern translations ' failed over and over.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Oh my goodness... GOD IS ONE...
And you say that:
- God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’
- God is Spirit
- One Spirit : One God
But now you are admitting that it was not the ONE GOD who came in the flesh. Whoa, took your time doing that!!!
So now you need to backtrack and say that it was the Son, who came in the flesh... what you have been denying all this time.
Goodness. Barry, don’t take so long to believe the truth next time it is discerned to you:
- He [the Son / The Messiah] came in the flesh AS PROPHESIED BY GOD, was seen by angels, was justified in the SPIRIT OF GOD, died, was resurrected BY GOD, taken up to heaven to sit NEXT TO GOD, etc. Etc....
- ‘God’ was seen by angels.....!!!?
- ‘Seen by angels?’ God CREATED the angels
- ‘God’ was justified in the spirit...?
- God is the FATHER of Spirit...!!
- “By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.” (1 Cor 6:14)
Your going to rationalize God and how he exists ? Good luck with ,that . If you believe the Bible then you will see it .
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
The Father is not the Son nor the Son is the Father nor the Son is the Holy Spirit nor is the Holy Spirit the Father... or any combination of permutations therein...
No scripture verse says anything about this ‘revelation’ simply because there was no concept of anything like as such to deny!
It is dogma and ideology of pagan belief surrounding Christianity that drew such a concept such that it should be denied. In fact, it is only in a sect of Christian FALLACY from which the concept is to be denied... the Christian concept (whether cult or sect!) that says that Jesus is all at once Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... and also another that speaks of God appearing in different modes at different times...
Clearly all of these are farcical and completely erroneous and more importantly, immediately dis-qualifiable.
So whence was there a need to DENY such a wretched claim? It certainly isn’t something that I need to AGREE TO ACCEPT OR DENY to in terms of anything that is, was, or would ever be, an ideology or dogma or anything.
I don’t know if you put that in to ‘prove’ something to me but whatever, it didn’t work! You might as well spell out an ideology that DENIES that Jesus is an apple core!
The point being: why is an ideology built upon denying something that no one ever claimed?
In fact, the whole pointy star logo thing that claims to express trinity is complete bunkum!
Trinity claims:
- The Father is God
- The Son is God
- The Holy Spirit is God
- The Holy Spirit is OF GOD
- The Holy Spirit is the Spirit OF THE FATHER
- The Son is OF GOD
- The Son is OF THE FATHER
- The Father is .......????
GOD, the CREATOR (which is ‘Father’) spoke a physical world into being through his Holy Spirit. God was pleased with his creation and proposed that an image of himself should exist in and rule over the creatures of his creation, to wit, he created a sinless, holy, and righteous image of himself in the flesh and called him, Adam.
Adam was a true Son of God, doing all God directed, instructed, commanded him to do, a dutiful son in all his way (‘Son of God’ Luke 3:38)
However, Adam succumbed to sin and fell away from the righteousness that made him a true ‘Image of God’ - sin came into him and he no longer fully followed the ways of his spirit Father, God!
God was angry and contemplated destroying the world he had created but relented when he proposed that if another ‘Son of God’ could be found and would give his pure, spotless, sinless, righteous blood as a sin offering to recompense for the sin of the FIRST ADAM, then He, God, would forever sway from destroying his creation.
Time after time certain ones of mankind came close to a full, true, son of God but sadly all fell short... David was the closest to achieving what God desired, hence God spoke of him saying, “I have found my David”. But because, as King, David sinned, God saw his repentance and promised that in time one of his descendant would take over, spiritually, his throne: ‘The throne of David’.
Now, throughout many hundreds of years, no man was found that fitted the requirements God set forth for this descendant naturally, God set forth the plan he had promised to David by creating a new man in the line of David (through a virgin) so as to fulfil the promise he made king ago in the days of Adam: a messiah would come from the SEED OF A WOMAN.
Note that the biblical procreation was through a human FATHER, the enlivening spirit of the Sperm in an inert, unenspirited egg of a woman. The sperm enlivens the egg to start the LIVING growth process of a child in the womb. The sperm and the egg combined is a procreation - like from like!!
But the child enlivened from an inert body by means of the Holy Spirit of God is NOT PROCREATION... it is a CREATION.
Almighty God does not PROCREATE.
Almighty God is the CREATOR (Father) of Spirits.
This is borne out in truth that the inert body of Adam, made from the dust of the earth (Adam, means ‘red earth’ or similar) and ENLIVENED by the Spirit of God, the BREATH of God, and as such:
- ‘The man BECAME A LIVING SOUL’
Similarly, the ‘Seed of the woman’ was not a living ‘egg’ until the Holy Spirit ‘overshadowed’ the virgin - and she was found to be ‘with child’.
In both cases, the child that is so CREATED is sinless, holy, righteous... the sinfulness of the seed of Adam (sperm) is absent and the child is a pure CREATION of God, not a PROCREATION of Man. It is, in effect, a FATHERED creation by God.
And, as prophesied by God, this latter created Son would fulfil all God’s desires for the salvation of the world: Isaiah 42:1 says he would be the Servant that God chose, and that God would amount him with His (God’s) Holy Spirit which would empower him to do good and bring salvation to the nations.
Now, remember that God promised that a HUMAN RULER would be seated on the spiritual throne of David. And remember that God set out from the beginning to put a HUMAN RULER over his created world....
The question to be asked is how anyone can think that GOD HIMSELF should put himself into his own creation to save his own creation and make himself ruler over his creation WHEN all the time he ALREADY IS RULER OVER ALL THINGS ETERNALLY.
And then, ‘What God foretells, such MUST BE FULFILLED’. So if God (I can’t even write it......!! Struggling...!) If God SAVED his own creation... what value is there for an IMMORTAL GOD to die while sinful mankind continues without repentance?? Which parent PUNISHES THEMSELVES for the sin of his children ... not even Job, pleading for the sins of his sons, could waystay the punishment of the sons!
So it is a SINLESS HUMAN SACRIFICE for a SINFUL HUMAN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS:
- The Last Adam (Man) atoning for the sin of the First Adam (Adam)
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Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Shocking... you can’t even answer straight... wow!
Rationalise God.... Barry, it’s you who is IRRATIONALISING GOD.
God is a RATIONAL RULER...
You know and can see that... and that is why you cannot answer to what is asked of you... Answering rationally would be to agree the truth - but of course it appears you cannot do that.
You can see that if you say that:
- ‘God came in the flesh’
- God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’
- ‘Father, Son, and holy spirit’ came in the flesh
- Jesus is ‘Father Son and Holy Spirit’
I asked you to define what you mean by ‘Fulness’ and ‘Godhead’ and you still cannot answer - yet you 100% claim to believe it... believe the ridiculous...
And now I ask you what you mean by ‘ESSENCE’ of God...
Are you going to do the same here...
Where do you learn your untruths from?
There's too many verses to post here on the Father being God the Son being God and the Holy Spirit being God . And the fact that there's only ONE God. Three distinct persons but one God . God is the being and essence they all share ,co equal and co eternal. " Doesn't make sense to me " Yes ,but God exists as the bible reveals. beyond what we can grasp fully. Oh sure other so called gods, yeah easy to imagine. Because that's precisely what they are , imagined.
I have a verse that says Jesus created ALL things and by hm ALL things consist . who but God could do such a thing ?
( Col 1 )
Explain eternity? Make it rational to how we exist ?
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Barry,
- SHOW ME A Verse saying that the Son is God.
You will find that verses say the son is OF GOD.
- Show me a verse saying that the Holy Spirit is God?
And I didn’t mention anything about ‘other Gods’. That’s a different topic and I hope you are using that to get away from what you cannot answer (politician style!)
You won’t answer to what the Father is ‘OF GOD’ because you know it will prove yourself wrong. Barry, why do you still do this? Can’t you see that I know what you are doing? An honest person would reply to my questions just as you are eager to reply to those who think less than to know your deceitful ways.
You can’t even read that it ridicule to say that “God came in the flesh” when it says that ‘He / HOS’ came in the flesh... THE MESSIAH, the promised SAVIOUR, the word spoken by God for the salvation of the nations as shown in Isaiah 42:1.
In that, you say that God speaks of himself as a SERVANT TO HIMSELF:
- ‘Behold MY SERVANT in whom my soul delights’
- ‘This is my Son in whom I am well pleased’
- ‘My chosen one’
- ‘Your are my Son, this day I have become your Father’
- ‘I will put my spirit on him and he shall bring salvation to the nations’
- “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.”
You miss the entire point of Jesus mission. Hes supposed to depend on God the Father and the Spirit. This is the problem with those that deny his divinity they confuse his humanity.
phil 2
5¶Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But MADE HIMSELF of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled HIMSELF , and BECAME OBEDIENT unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given HIM a name which is ABOVE EVERY !!! name:
10That at the NAME OF JESUS every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Come on man! Any other than being God this would be the highest form of blasphemy.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
You’ve hit rock bottom and still trying to dig in the same hole you’ve found yourself in.
You even said it yourself (quoted it yourself):
- “9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given HIM a name which is ABOVE EVERY !!! name”
And GAVE HIM the name above all names because this same Jesus SUCCEEDED IN BRINGING SALVATION TO ALL MANKIND.. just as GOD prophesied in Isaiah 42;1:
- ‘... and he shall bring salvation to the nations’
- “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.”
- ‘The Father is in me’... ‘God is in me’
- ‘Assuredly, The son can do nothing of himself... it is the Father in me... he doeth the deeds [through me] (John 14:10)
When you say ' God ' your imposing your idea of God into every response . Thats called ' begging the question.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Barry, Barry, Barry, you are really losing it now. Trying to worm your way out of your wrongful thinking is causing you to become delusional.
I QUOTED from the scriptures ...
What you are doing is to realise that the trinity version of ‘God’ does not fit the truth of the scriptures:
- ‘GOD’ anointed the man, Jesus, with HIS (God’s) Holy Spirit.
This tells us that it is the POWER of SPIRIT OF GOD in Jesus Christ that causes him, Jesus Christ, Jesus, the anointed man, to carry out the works of his Father, His GOD (and should be OUR GOD):
- “Assuredly, The son can do nothing of himself... it is the Father in me... he doeth the deeds [through me]” (John 14:10)
- “Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17)
- "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.“ (John 14:28)
- After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:1-3)
Jesus, additionally, speaks of the time at the judgement seat when those chosen out of the world will be GRANTED ETERNAL LIFE BY JESUS - hence Jesus becomes ‘ETERNAL FATHER’ to them (as prophesied in Isaiah ... what God speaks must be fulfilled)
And finally, Jesus proclaims that, not only those chosen out of the world BY GOD, his Father, but that ALL who submit their spirits to the belief in the Father, in almighty God, in Yahweh... and in himself (again, addressed in the third person) will be granted ETERNAL LIFE (by Jesus at the judgement seat). Of course, this is not a frivolous ‘belief in God and Christ’.
Barry, it’s not a point of argument here but where is your third GOD? Afterall, nowhere, absolutely nowhere, does anyone claim a belief in, let alone that eternal life depends on believing in a three person pagan God!