God is in control, what does that mean?

Truthseeker9 said:

- How do you know that Vistaspa killed competitors for Zoroaster, when they are not even sure he exists, and legends and myths accrued around him?
- Likewise the stores of what Moses said about killing Amelikites and Medianites were written down hundreds of years later. Are they accurate? Are they allegorical? Or both?
- You never showed that Jesus said anything that would cause His followers to kill people. You didn't address the point.
- "I only know of one instance where Muhammad was involved in the killing of Jews."
- After nine years of being in Akka, the first two being in the prison cell, He was allowed to leave Akka even the decree was still in effect.
- As to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, he is not a Messenger of God,
- and also you have not said they killed anyone, just that they are suffering.

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"and finally that the men who maligned Zoroaster be put to death."
- When there is no history, we go by their own scriptures and legends. You may read the details of conflicts and wars in Vishtaspa - Wikipedia and Vishtaspa - Wikipedia
- The same for stories about Moses' conflicts with Amalekites and Medianites, their own scriptures.
- Jesus did not have any power but he cursed the cities that did not welcome him to a fate worse than Sodom and Gomorrah.
- What the hadiths say is the history by the victors. The fact is that by the time Mohammad died, there were no Jew or Christian tribes left in Arabia, only a few individuals may have survived.
- The suffering of Bahais in Iran was directly related to the their belief in Bahaollah unverified claim that he was a 'manifestation' of Allah. That is what I said, messengers and manifestations only bring sufferings for people.
- Bahaollah travelled from Baghdad with his family and followers. He was treated as a guest of the Ottoman government when he came to Constantinople. Bahaollah did not face the suffering that his followers in Iran were facing except perhaps for first two years in Akka.
Houses where Bahaollah stayed: Adrianople, Mazra'ih, Bahji.


- That is what you say, but some 20 million Ahmadiyyas believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the Mahdi.
- Yeah, those who claimed to be sons / manifestations / mahdis, but did not have power (or backing) like Zoroaster, Moses or Mohammad did not kill.

Trailblazer said:

Last night I heard about a road rage incident on the TV wherein a six-year old child was shot to death in the car his mother was driving.

I copied down exactly what the school pastor said:

“I try to just lay it out to them in a simple way so that they can understand that bad things happen even to a godly situation…

God’s in control, we try to make them understand what that means.”

What is that supposed to mean? Is that supposed to make people feel better? Are people who say that rather naive, or do they just have strong faith?

I believe that God is I control, but I do not understand what that means to this pastor. I only know what it means according to my Baha’i beliefs, as noted below.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

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God is not in control of free choice.

Clara Tea said:

God is not in control of free choice.

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God does not control free choice but God could intervene and change our minds if He wanted to.

Trailblazer said:

God does not control free choice but God could intervene and change our minds if He wanted to.

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Maybe God already do it without humans noticing it? Humans would still feel it as a free will because it is not felt like God nugging the human in the "right" direction

Trailblazer said:

God does not control free choice but God could intervene and change our minds if He wanted to.

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I think God can help us change ourselves, but only if we are willing. When we genuinely turn to God with an open heart, we will not be turned away. That's been my (subjective, unproveable, but real) experience anyway.

Conscious thoughts said:

Maybe God already do it without humans noticing it? Humans would still feel it as a free will because it is not felt like God nugging the human in the "right" direction

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Yes, I think that is what God does, especially for those who believe in Him.
Sometimes I notice it, like God guiding me to make decisions.

RestlessSoul said:

I think God can help us change ourselves, but only if we are willing. When we genuinely turn to God with an open heart, we will not be turned away.

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Yeah, that is what I was getting at in the post above. You must have read my mind; either that or you and I think a lot alike.

Trailblazer said:

Yes, I think that is what God does, especially for those who believe in Him.
Sometimes I notice it, like God guiding me to make decisions.

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It is a good feeling to have, the guidance is often needed

Conscious thoughts said:

It is a good feeling to have, the guidance is often needed

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More often than not around these parts.

Trailblazer said:

Last night I heard about a road rage incident on the TV wherein a six-year old child was shot to death in the car his mother was driving.

I copied down exactly what the school pastor said:

“I try to just lay it out to them in a simple way so that they can understand that bad things happen even to a godly situation…

God’s in control, we try to make them understand what that means.”

What is that supposed to mean? Is that supposed to make people feel better? Are people who say that rather naive, or do they just have strong faith?

I believe that God is I control, but I do not understand what that means to this pastor. I only know what it means according to my Baha’i beliefs, as noted below.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

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I think that many of these things are directly related to material civilisation and that in a spiritual world would be unheard of. We are living in the age of the ego where our animalistic natures instead of our spiritual natures tend to rule society and the world. We have chosen this path so these are the kinds of tragedies that it leads to.

The path of God and virtues leads to peace and happiness. It is people’s choice which path they choose.

The suffering tells us something is wrong and that we need to change just like when the body has pain it is indicating a condition exists which needs to be treated. But because very few reflect on this, thinking it is the ‘norm’, we continue to walk along the path that leads to death, sorrow and destruction. When the pain becomes unbearable then and only then might we change direction and head towards a cure which is the teachings of God.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

If you'd prefer, we could use the Bible's analogy of God as the potter and humans as "pots."


The scriptures are also clear that the person who sins comes from God.

IOW, God is the ultimate source of sin.


In case it wasn't clear: I don't find your religion believable at all. I've just been pointing out one way that it isn't even internally consistent.

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Sorry, but the passage and reference to “the Potter and pots” is from Jeremiah and it’s speaking about God dealing with Nations & Kingdoms, not individual humans. So it is not an applicable analogy.

“The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.”
Jeremiah 18:7-10


I realize you do not believe in God or the Bible, but there is no internal inconsistency. God is not the ultimate source of sin, unless if course He created humans who were given no choice, nor escape from sin. That’s not the message of the Bible, though, since it reveals humans were not only given the ability to choose, but God also gave very clear instruction concerning sin; how to avoid it or how to be free from it.
it seems that your idea of consistency would be that, if there is a Creator, that He create either robots or don’t create any person with the ability to think or choose at all.

InChrist said:

Sorry, but the passage and reference to “the Potter and pots” is from Jeremiah and it’s speaking about God dealing with Nations & Kingdoms, not individual humans. So it is not an applicable analogy.

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I was thinking of Romans 9, where the analogy was used for individual humans.

I realize you do not believe in God or the Bible, but there is no internal inconsistency. God is not the ultimate source of sin, unless if course He created humans who were given no choice, nor escape from sin.

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If we have the option to choose sin, it would only be because God provided the opportunity. God would still be the ultimate source of sin.

That’s not the message of the Bible, though, since it reveals humans were not only given the ability to choose, but God also gave very clear instruction concerning sin; how to avoid it or how to be free from it.

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Yes: according to the Bible, God have humans the choice to avoid the sin that God placed in the world (along with the inclination for many not to avoid it).

it seems that your idea of consistency would be that, if there is a Creator, that He create either robots or don’t create any person with the ability to think or choose at all.

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Not this nonsense again. Please.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

I was thinking of Romans 9, where the analogy was used for individual humans.

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Even that verse is not referring to individual humans; sin or salvation, but God’s election and purpose in using nations to accomplish His will through history. The reference is back to Malachi and the main focus is about the people groups from Esau and Jacob in the future: Edomites vs the Israelites. Romans 9 continues on concerning the conditions and purpose of Israel and the non-Jewish Gentile peoples.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

If we have the option to choose sin, it would only be because God provided the opportunity. God would still be the ultimate source of sin.


Yes: according to the Bible, God have humans the choice to avoid the sin that God placed in the world (along with the inclination for many not to avoid it).


Not this nonsense again. Please.

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It is not nonsense if God desires to give humans real freedom and the actual opportunity to choose good over evil. Anything less would be forced or programmed, certainly not a free choice based on love for good and God.
And according to the scriptures God is not the ultimate source of evil... that was Lucifer. Sin originated from with Lucifer (Ezekiel 28:14-15).

Trailblazer said:

Last night I heard about a road rage incident on the TV wherein a six-year old child was shot to death in the car his mother was driving.

I copied down exactly what the school pastor said:

“I try to just lay it out to them in a simple way so that they can understand that bad things happen even to a godly situation…

God’s in control, we try to make them understand what that means.”

What is that supposed to mean? Is that supposed to make people feel better? Are people who say that rather naive, or do they just have strong faith?

I believe that God is I control, but I do not understand what that means to this pastor. I only know what it means according to my Baha’i beliefs, as noted below.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

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On Saturday I spent time with my grand daughter watching Joseph, King of Dreams. It is the story of Joseph from the Bible. The most moving part of the animated movie is the part where Joseph despaired in jail and asked God, Why? A song began, which made my eyes tear:

Trailblazer said:

Last night I heard about a road rage incident on the TV wherein a six-year old child was shot to death in the car his mother was driving.

I copied down exactly what the school pastor said:

“I try to just lay it out to them in a simple way so that they can understand that bad things happen even to a godly situation…

God’s in control, we try to make them understand what that means.”

What is that supposed to mean? Is that supposed to make people feel better? Are people who say that rather naive, or do they just have strong faith?

I believe that God is I control, but I do not understand what that means to this pastor. I only know what it means according to my Baha’i beliefs, as noted below.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

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Its not a bible verse .

IndigoChild5559 said:

On Saturday I spent time with my grand daughter watching Joseph, King of Dreams. It is the story of Joseph from the Bible. The most moving part of the animated movie is the part where Joseph despaired in jail and asked God, Why? A song began, which made my eyes tear:

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Thanks for sharing the video. It's good to teach children these things about God when they are young. I was not raised in a family that taught me anything about God since both my parents were fallen away Christians and never attended any Church.

I never even thought about God seriously until I was 60 years old, and by then I had already had a certain way of thinking, so, "you know better than I" is something I struggle with even though it makes logical sense, since God is all-knowing. It is just the suffering I cannot understand and I don't think it is fair to expect us to believe that God is everything He is cracked up to be when we see all this suffering in the world, and never question why. I cannot just say "I don't understand" and still believe God is loving and just. I can believe God exists because that makes sense, but I cannot believe God is loving and just because it makes no sense. It is a faith-based belief and I think logically so if I cannot make sense out of it I cannot believe it just because it is found in scriptures of my religion and all the older religions.

Barry Johnson said:

Its not a bible verse .

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And so?

Trailblazer said:

And so?

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So the phrase ' God is in control ' is vague.

Barry Johnson said:

So the phrase ' God is in control ' is vague.

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The pastor said:
“I try to just lay it out to them in a simple way so that they can understand that bad things happen even to a godly situation…

God’s in control, we try to make them understand what that means.”

But then he never explained what that means.
That is why I asked -- what does it mean?

Trailblazer said:

That is why I asked -- what does it mean?
The pastor said it so he must have known what he meant by it.

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I would ask the same question . Some of these things are just cliche s people say . ' Christianese, worst still ,bad theology .