And it's worth noting that we have a lot of men on this discussion, but no gods. So lots of grains of salt going around.
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If humans can't unite on religion, is there a purpose to religion?
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74x12
Well-Known Member
He does come back as it says he will in Acts 1:11 and elsewhere.
Even though Jesus says he finished the work that doesn't mean he meant all his work. Because God says "Sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool"
So Jesus will reign on the right hand of all power until all his enemies are placed under his human feet.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
When a believer has absolute certitude there is no uncertainty.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Jesus said all who came before me are thieves and liars so they didn't enter the sheepfold by the door. They sneak in some other way. This is because Jesus fulfilled key prophecies proving he is the one who was prepared and hidden with the Father to be revealed in his time. And Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and another they won't follow.
But it's their desire to know God that can color what they think God is, and how the relationship is going. This is how we get Muslim extremists (who are so damn sure they are doing God's will that they are going to die) flying planes into buildings, or Christian extremists pushing to deny science in public schools because they interpret Genesis in a way that even Jews don't do. Where's the test in reality for those who seek a relationship with a god?
The 9-11 hijackers had it. This is why we ask questions.
Are you certain? If a theist has absolute certitude then they have facts to show others. If they have no facts they are delusional.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through me. So I don't believe I am in error.
Christian "dogma" has no authority. What has authority is the Word of God by which all things have their form and being.
I am not sure why you're even riled up by this claim. It either will happen or it won't. Nothing we say can stop it from happening if God said it. Don't you believe that at least?
All over the world, all but every culture we've encountered has supernatural beings of various kinds in their lore. Since those cultures don't agree about what or who those beings are or what it is they do, that seems to rule out any particular version being correct ─ otherwise they all would have "seen" much the same supernatural thing.
So this suggests that belief in supernatural beings is either an evolved tendency of humans, or an artifact of some other one or more evolved tendencies of humans.
For instance, we've evolved excellent survival responses, including a sense of danger that includes fear of the dark, and also fear of the unknown. And in respect of the unknown, we instinctively and usually instantly assign reasons, explanations. We are at the same time curious about things. So faced with mysteries like thunderstorms, drought, flood, good and bad luck, and not least sex, birth and death, we very usually have a tribal tale to account for it, and this may involve supernatural beings, benevolent or otherwise.
In addition, having religion in common may be an aid to tribal solidarity, along with a common language, customs, heroes and stories. We're still essentially tribal creatures, as any football fan will tell you as they call down good luck on their own team for the next game, bad luck on the opposing team, and shared joy or depression at the result.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Christ Spirit has already returned just as it says in Acts 1:9-11.
Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
These verses say that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return from heaven, from the heaven of the Will of God. The verses do not say that the physical body of Jesus was "taken up."
The disciples were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky and said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up.
It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.
Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.
Jesus will reign forever in heaven, but never again will He reign on earth.
Luke 1:32
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 56
But you are in error. There's no denial of that. The religious tradition of Hinduism was in a different part pf the planet than the tradition that Jesus evolved from, so why would Christianity have any relevance to Hindus?
The Bible has no authority itself. What can a Bible do sitting on someone's coffee table?
Now you as a fallible mortal with beliefs that could be in error may believe you have authority through the Bible and act. But you are a fallible mortal who is prone to errors of judgment, not the Word. The Word does nothing. It has no authority.
Are you admitting that you could be mistaken in your religious beliefs?
Perhaps not -- but surely it's an important consideration that all those intelligent people who can read and understand a "proof" would accept it. And really, aren't those the ones that the religious folk would really like to get over to their side?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus did not say that no one has ever come to the Father but through me and Jesus did not say that no one will ever come to the Father in the future but through me.
When Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through me He was referring to a certain time period, what is called a dispensation. Thus during the Christian dispensation no one could come to the Father except through Jesus.
Dispensation
- the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
- an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
- a divinely appointed order or age:
Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You can cherry pick Bible verses till the cows come home to try to prove that Jesus is the Only Way, but you will never prove it because other verses disprove it. What about Moses, was he a thief and a liar? I don't think Jesus would agree with that.
Jesus' sheep heard His voice, but before that the Israelites heard the Voice of God through Moses. After that, the Muslims heard the Voice of God through Muhammad, and in this age the Baha'is have heard the Voice of God through Baha'u'llah.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Just because some believers have certitude that does not mean they have the truth.
I showed you the facts about Baha'u'llah but you rejected them.
In that case you are also not even seeking at all, because you also believe you have found the truth.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I already did my seeking and I found the truth from God for this age. If I have not determined that after over 50 years then I would have to be very inept at seeking.
But that does not mean I am not still seeking more truth, I am just not seeking another religion.
74x12
Well-Known Member
I'm not cherry picking but I do make connections between different verses. Because that's how you get a clearer picture of things. You put them together when they are speaking about the same topic.
Jesus said Moses wrote about me and so if you believe Moses you'll believe Jesus. Because Jesus is what Moses really talked about. (John 5:46)
74x12
Well-Known Member
Jesus said before Abraham was I am.
Jesus is the Word of God from the beginning. As it says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."
So Jesus was there in beginning and He'll always be there. There is no other way to God and there never was. Even they in the old Testament waited for the manifestation of the Son of God who would take away their sins by mercy they already believed God could take their sins but they didn't know how God would do that.
And they didn't know how God would raise them from the dead even though they believed it. But Jesus is the resurrection and the life and Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.
By the way, Jesus is God Himself anyway so there is that also.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You got it wrong. Read again.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Why not? I mean there can't be two contradictory truths. Why would it work like that? Why would their be reincarnation in India but Jesus and resurrection in other places?
The Bible is just the written prophecies of prophets that were inspired by the holy Spirit but they aren't all the Word of God. The Word of God holds everything together. It's what keeps the universe from falling apart basically. I'd say that's pretty authoritative if it holds you and me together.
It was for the sake of argument.