• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

If humans can't unite on religion, is there a purpose to religion?

74x12

Well-Known Member
To me, that answer is definitely no.

But there is an illusion that we can't, because we won't. God can make all us unite forcefully, but won't, at the same time, is very disappointed we have united on division and have agreed to not unite on the truth but leave everyone to their own path.

I believe the truth can be arrived at as a whole race, we can come to it. But those who know truth tend to be apathetic of teaching it to others while great majority of humans want to decide what to follow per their desires rather then submit to God.

As a result, it looks like uniting on truth is impossible, but it's not.
Everyone will unite in the kingdom of God. There will be no racism or anything like that. But this will only happen after Jesus Christ returns. Now in the mean time Jesus predicted that there would be wars and rumors of wars and ethnos against ethnos.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe Bahai Faith not to make a lot sense when it comes to how interprets Quran but Quran makes a lot of sense to me how it interprets the Bible. I believe part of the problem of disunity is we focus on ambiguity and not focus on what is clear. Bahai faith doesn't alleviate that problem as it heavily focuses on giving unclear and unproven interpretation of Quranic verses such as the clear verses about the day of judgment.

I researched Bahai Faith when I was in high school, but the main reason I stopped going deeper is that I read the interpretation of the day of judgment as well as the Bayan (by the Bab) saying Imams existed eternally and always existed and there is no way I can get myself to think God is that deceptive in speech.
Can you explain where you think the Baha'i Faith gives unclear and unproven interpretation of Quranic verses such as what you believe are the clear verses about the day of judgment? What does the Qur'an say about the Day of Judgment? I can explain what the Baha'i Faith says, but first I'd like to hear from you.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Everyone will unite in the kingdom of God. There will be no racism or anything like that. But this will only happen after Jesus Christ returns. Now in the mean time Jesus predicted that there would be wars and rumors of wars and ethnos against ethnos.
With all due respect, Jesus never promised to return to earth, not even once in the entire New Testament.

Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world, so why don't Christians believe what their own Bible says?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Jesus never claimed to be a king, and He never said he was coming to rule.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.


These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can you explain where you think the Baha'i Faith gives unclear and unproven interpretation of Quranic verses such as what you believe are the clear verses about the day of judgment? What does the Qur'an say about the Day of Judgment? I can explain what the Baha'i Faith says, but first I'd like to hear from you.

Sure, let's talk about it from "proof" standpoint.

The Signs have different stages, miracles of Moses were clear, but there will still room of denial if you are going to be that irrational. However, when you combine all the verses of the day of judgment, you can see that day, everything is proven beyond doubt that there is no room for a soul to deceive itself and deny. When disbelievers were asking for a clear sign, they were asking for that which will make them certain beyond doubt as they were accusing Mohammad (s) of sorcery or they were done through Jinn while he was possessed with respect to his signs just as past Messengers were accused of either of the two.

It's in this dialogue that Quran introduces the day of judgement as a day that everyone will see the truth clearly, but, repenting is too late on that day. God will rhetorically ask them who is the enchanter, as it will be clear that power belongs to God wholly, and this will be a clear display of signs that no one will doubt.

The Witnesses and Prophets will hold everyone accountable on behalf of God, and there are many verses about how people will wish they followed the Messengers that day, but it's too late. They will see the punishment and wish they can come back and reform themselves, but it's too late.

And this in a way is an argument against the "argument from hiddenness" that God doesn't exist. Quran shows a clear reason why God doesn't show himself beyond doubt and no room for denial to everyone. On the day when there is no room for denial, there is also no room for redemption. It's too late.

As for why the signs that type Messengers show in form of miracles are not in the open in any given time, there is only one reason to not send with them, the previous denied them and their denial made the situation hard on believers that God out of mercy for them and for humanity not to be destroyed, hides miracles from the open. Otherwise, miracles, are meant to be in the open and there is always a guide for every people that can perform them in which it proves him being a representative of God.

The difference in this age, is that, we have to ask God to guide us to see this guide and that he will manifest miracles to us if we are ready.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
We been ingrained morality but part of morality we been ingrained is to seek guidance and act on it. If we don't seek guidance nor act on it, we are betraying our human nature.

So are you saying that if ever anyone genuinely seeks guidance and acts on that guidance, they will receive God's Guidance and will submit to God?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sure, let's talk about it from "proof" standpoint.

The Signs have different stages, miracles of Moses were clear, but there will still room of denial if you are going to be that irrational. However, when you combine all the verses of the day of judgment, you can see that day, everything is proven beyond doubt that there is no room for a soul to deceive itself and deny. When disbelievers were asking for a clear sign, they were asking for that which will make them certain beyond doubt as they were accusing Mohammad (s) of sorcery or they were done through Jinn while he was possessed with respect to his signs just as past Messengers were accused of either of the two.

It's in this dialogue that Quran introduces the day of judgement as a day that everyone will see the truth clearly, but, repenting is too late on that day. God will rhetorically ask them who is the enchanter, as it will be clear that power belongs to God wholly, and this will be a clear display of signs that no one will doubt.

The Witnesses and Prophets will hold everyone accountable on behalf of God, and there are many verses about how people will wish they followed the Messengers that day, but it's too late. They will see the punishment and wish they can come back and reform themselves, but it's too late.

And this in a way is an argument against the "argument from hiddenness" that God doesn't exist. Quran shows a clear reason why God doesn't show himself beyond doubt and no room for denial to everyone. On the day when there is no room for denial, there is also no room for redemption. It's too late.

As for why the signs that type Messengers show in form of miracles are not in the open in any given time, there is only one reason to not send with them, the previous denied them and their denial made the situation hard on believers that God out of mercy for them and for humanity not to be destroyed, hides miracles from the open. Otherwise, miracles, are meant to be in the open and there is always a guide for every people that can perform them in which it proves him being a representative of God.

The difference in this age, is that, we have to ask God to guide us to see this guide and that he will manifest miracles to us if we are ready.
Wow, that is a lot to take in. Judgment day is a very important subject so I want to follow what you are saying and continue this conversation but I will have to take it piece by piece

You said: It's in this dialogue that Quran introduces the day of judgement as a day that everyone will see the truth clearly, but, repenting is too late on that day. God will rhetorically ask them who is the enchanter, as it will be clear that power belongs to God wholly, and this will be a clear display of signs that no one will doubt.

First, do you believe that the day of judgment is one day, or that it exists for a period of time?
Second, why/how/when do you think everyone will see the truth clearly?
When do you think it will be too late to repent? Why do you think it will be too late to repent?

You said: The Witnesses and Prophets will hold everyone accountable on behalf of God, and there are many verses about how people will wish they followed the Messengers that day, but it's too late. They will see the punishment and wish they can come back and reform themselves, but it's too late.

Can you cite those verses?

You said: And this in a way is an argument against the "argument from hiddenness" that God doesn't exist. Quran shows a clear reason why God doesn't show himself beyond doubt and no room for denial to everyone. On the day when there is no room for denial, there is also no room for redemption. It's too late.

I believe that is what the Qur'an says and I agree with the Qur'an. There is a clear reason why God doesn't show himself beyond doubt to everyone, and Baha'ullah explained the reason why in this passage:

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71


In the context of the passage above, If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people it means that God could have made all people believe in Him, but If God has pleased means that God did not want to make all people into believers, since we know that God could have if He had wanted to. The passage goes on to say why God didn’t want to make everyone into believers... In short, God wants us to do our own homework and become believers by our own efforts (by virtue of their own innate powers).

According to this passage, God wants everyone to search for Him and determine if He exists by using their own innate intelligence and using their free will to make the decision to believe. God wants those who are sincere and truly search for Him to believe in Him. God wants to distinguish those people from the others who are not sincere, those who are unwilling to put forth any effort (the wayward and perverse).
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wow, that is a lot to take in. Judgment day is a very important subject so I want to follow what you are saying and continue this conversation but I will have to take it piece by piece

You said: It's in this dialogue that Quran introduces the day of judgement as a day that everyone will see the truth clearly, but, repenting is too late on that day. God will rhetorically ask them who is the enchanter, as it will be clear that power belongs to God wholly, and this will be a clear display of signs that no one will doubt.

First, do you believe that the day of judgment is one day, or that it exists for a period of time?
Second, why/how/when do you think everyone will see the truth clearly?
When do you think it will be too late to repent? Why do you think it will be too late to repent?

You said: The Witnesses and Prophets will hold everyone accountable on behalf of God, and there are many verses about how people will wish they followed the Messengers that day, but it's too late. They will see the punishment and wish they can come back and reform themselves, but it's too late.

Can you cite those verses?

First - it's 50 000 thousand years of what we count and a long process, that is why much of the Quran is saying at a certain point, people regretting how they wasted their lives, will be told they tarried but a little. This is why Rasool (s) says life of this world is but an hour so to live it in obedience to God.

Second - how is by God taking total control where no soul controls for a soul anything but the authority fully God's.

On the day of judgment it's too late, while death is dependent. The thing about death, is that you go there with spiritual faculties, and chances if you are blind in this world, you will be blind in death life and not be able to discern Angels from Jinn nor accept Messengers of God. Of course everyone regrets and wants to do good when they die, but the day of truth is the day of judgment, even though hell takes place as punishment in grave life, it's full and clear reality is coming only on the day of judgment. Before that, it's not manifest to disbelievers whether in this world or grave, they are in it, but don't perceive.

I can cite verses but I rather you read the Quran contextually with these verses and see them all with respect to each other rather than I cite verses and we begin to talk about them as if Quran didn't contextualize them and as if they aren't clear.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That would appear to deny the experiences of all those people who appear to genuinely seek guidance but come to a different understanding of what is required of them or who as a result end up treading a different religious or spiritual path.

Those who speak about God what they don't know are exactly oppressors to themselves and other humans, and won't have a chance to enter paradise. It's disbelief to speak about God falsehood or even say about what him what we don't know, Shirk is condemned for equating with God but also from many verses, it's condemned solely on the basis they attribute God what they don't know and without proof.

The truthful striver finds God's ways, as Quran promises, he will guide those who strive for his sake.

It doesn't matter - if there is no one with these traits left nor how few they are in this age.

God forbid us and proven through out Quran, no one fears God and believes in him and then speaks about God what they don't know.

Yet, it's mainstream pretty much to talk about God conjecture these days including Muslims and their scholars.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are those literally without means to come to truth. God accounts them differently and I'm not talking about them.

I'm talking about those with time in their hands, but waste their lives in never approaching God truthfully or sincerely, and never respond to his call.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Those who speak about God what they don't know are exactly oppressors to themselves and other humans, and won't have a chance to enter paradise. It's disbelief to speak about God falsehood or even say about what him what we don't know, Shirk is condemned for equating with God but also from many verses, it's condemned solely on the basis they attribute God what they don't know and without proof.

The truthful striver finds God's ways, as Quran promises, he will guide those who strive for his sake.

So you would condemn those who do not submit to God as untruthful to themselves and/or others even if they have done much soul searching and sought much guidance and genuinely believe what they say about God?

EDIT: Or genuinely believe what they say about gods or goddesses or other beliefs.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So you would condemn those who do not submit to God as untruthful to themselves and/or others even if they have done much soul searching and sought much guidance and genuinely believe what they say about God?

I believe anyone who fears God and believes in his severe punishment, God will guide them. I believe anyone who truly believes in God, God will guide their heart.

Those who speak about God what they don't know and take their religion as a game, are neither believers in God nor the Messengers nor do they fear the everlasting punishment of the fire.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You should have just said that religious truths are subjective.
And no theology is objective.

You have got it wrong. Religion and theology is the same in my statement. You are not understanding the post. But its okay. You dont have to.

A person can study religion objectively, but that means to not assume the supernatural elements that theists assume as the basis of their faith.

Nope. You got it wrong. I think you have a set mind and a set goal. You just wish to debunk religion by hook or crook in every corner so that is blocking your understanding what someone says.

So thanks, and ciao.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Those who speak about God what they don't know and take their religion as a game

I'm not talking about those who take their religion as a game, I'm talking about those who take their religion very seriously and in all sincerity have arrived at different truths.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
EDIT: Or genuinely believe what they say about gods or goddesses or other beliefs.

Deceiving yourself into Worshiping other then God and deceiving yourself in piety about that and obeying leaders other then those who God appointed, is a sure way, to incur God's wrath.

The first thing is first for every human, seek proof and don't accept anything without proof. If you accept without proof, you let misguiding leaders lead you astray, and if you follow proofs, then you give God a chance to guide you.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not talking about those who take their religion as a game, I'm talking about those who take their religion very seriously and in all sincerity have arrived at different truths.

Nuh's (a) people rejected Nuh (a) in the name of piety, but inwardly, their idols were their leaders and the gods they claimed to worship was all to hold on to their infrastructure as a means of love between themselves.

It's not acceptable to reject God and his Messengers (a) in "sincere" Self-deception.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
in all sincerity have arrived at different truths.

There is no such thing as different truths, the truth is same, people can arrive at falsehood when they don't fear God and attribute him things without proof and God will always guide the believers from the differences and disputes of people.

The first thing a believer has to do is disbelieve in people's claim in sincerity and then believe in God and trust his relationship to God and rely on God and his rope.

God has a way of proving things with insights, but we can't mix falsehood and truth, or else, we can't gain insights or if we do, it's mixed with conjecture.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Deceiving yourself into Worshiping other then God and deceiving yourself in piety about that and obeying leaders other then those who God appointed, is a sure way, to incur God's wrath.

The first thing is first for every human, seek proof and don't accept anything without proof. If you accept without proof, you let misguiding leaders lead you astray, and if you follow proofs, then you give God a chance to guide you.

I believe that if a person seeks the truth in all sincerity, and is misguided, God will forgive. I believe God's Mercy is greater than His Wrath.

And in matters of religion, I'm not sure there are really incontrovertible proofs - it comes down, ultimately, to matters of belief and faith.
 
Top