Why would it matter if Jesus had risen from the dead?

Trailblazer said:

Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
When God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God.

Jesus was not God incarnate, and this video explains why that is wholly impossible.

Click to expand...

The Son of God exit's from the eternal I AM, before this world was. God the Father was manifest in God the Son from eternity. He incarnate as a babe of the realm, the greatest miracle of miracles; God becoming one of his own created beings. Jesus as such was always both human and divine in one miraculous personality.

The incarnate Son could have relinquished his life and returned to heaven on his own, but the Son and the Father decided to take the course of action that they did, laying down his mortal life for all to see and returning on his own to be seen by believers.

Trailblazer said:

Please cite the verses where Jesus said that His physical body would rise from the dead.

Click to expand...

At least people seem to have thought he said so, because:

saying, "Sir, we remember what that deceiver said while he was still alive: 'After three days I will rise again.'
Matt. 27:63

Trailblazer said:

There have been so many threads being posted about Jesus rising from the dead, so I think it is about time someone asked why it matters so much to people, not only Christians but also atheists.

So what is the significance of Jesus rising from the dead and why is it such a big deal to people?

I have my own ideas but I do not want to give away my position until I have heard from others.

Click to expand...

My belief is that it caters to the ego’s desire to feel superior to everyone else. This attitude promotes egotistical condescension of other Prophets and Faiths and the clergy use it to keep their followers from joining other religions.

But it directly opposes Christ’s teachings of love and unity. Hopefully it will change over time.

Barry Johnson said:

The bible then goes on to say Jesus is seated at the right hand of the father and will return. Every book in the NT alone mentions the return of Jesus . Again this is a wacky arguement that cannot be sustained by the bible.

Click to expand...

Every book in the NT that 'you believe' mentions the return of Jesus is not about Jesus returning in the same body, it is about the return of the Christ Spirit in another human body. All these verses you 'believe' are about Jesus are about Baha'u'llah, who was the return of Christ.

Sorry, you cannot make that work. The same Jesus was never planning to return to earth, as the Bible clearly says:

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

Barry Johnson said:

But none of what your saying here is biblical . This is your beliefs and your entitled to believe them . They have nothing to do with the bible however.

Click to expand...

That's right, because the Bible is 2000 years behind the times and whoever clings to it will also remain behind the times, but that is their choice because we all have free will.

loverofhumanity said:

My belief is that it caters to the ego’s desire to feel superior to everyone else. This attitude promotes egotistical condescension of other Prophets and Faiths and the clergy use it to keep their followers from joining other religions.

But it directly opposes Christ’s teachings of love and unity. Hopefully it will change over time.

Click to expand...

My belief is that the main reason Christians have to believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus is so they can continue to maintain the belief that Jesus is going to return from heaven on the clouds in the same physical body He had when He was resurrected. Logically speaking, without the bodily resurrection belief, they would have to face the truth, that Jesus never planned to return to earth. (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

This is the crux of the issue, the main reason why Christians cannot let go of the belief in the bodily resurrection.
All the doctrinal stuff that Christians talk about is just fluff.

You are correct in saying that what Christians believe directly opposes Christ's teachings, because the Christian belief about Jesus returning in the same body directly opposes Christ’s teachings. Jesus said He would send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth, which was Baha'u'llah, but they instead cling to what Christianity teaches, that the the Comforter and the Spirit of truth was the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost to 'live inside' of them. However, their own scriptures prove this is not true. The Comforter/Spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit that was slated to be sent in the last days, not at Pentecost.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been proven to have been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah in the following book:

Thief in the Night by William Sears

Trailblazer said:

My belief is that the main reason Christians have to believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus is so they can continue to maintain the belief that Jesus is going to return from heaven on the clouds in the same physical body He had when He was resurrected. Logically speaking, without the bodily resurrection belief, they would have to face the truth, that Jesus never planned to return to earth. (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

This is the crux of the issue, the main reason why Christians cannot let go of the belief in the bodily resurrection.
All the doctrinal stuff that Christians talk about is just fluff.

You are correct in saying that what Christians believe directly opposes Christ's teachings, because the Christian belief about Jesus returning in the same body directly opposes Christ’s teachings. Jesus said He would send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth, which was Baha'u'llah, but they instead cling to what Christianity teaches, that the the Comforter and the Spirit of truth was the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost to 'live inside' of them. However, their own scriptures prove this is not true. The Comforter/Spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit that was slated to be sent in the last days, not at Pentecost.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been proven to have been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah in the following book:

Thief in the Night by William Sears

Click to expand...

That’s an awesome book.

Barry Johnson said:

What we have is this today in reality is that every religion more or less is exclusively saying what they teach is the truth and that others are wrong. So take Islam and Christianity for example . What your saying completely contradicts what each say about what is true and false.

Click to expand...

Apparently you are unable to think outside that box. What you do not understand is that what the religious believers say is just what they believe. As such, it is meaningless, since it is NOT what their scriptures say. Christians and Muslims want to believe that they teach is the truth and that others are wrong, and that is why they believe it, not because their scriptures say it.

Barry Johnson said:

all religions are true and basically leading the same way " is really what your religion is REALLY about . " No . No religion is agreeing with you . This is a separate philosophy that Just says " all religion is a part of the same pie nonsense.

Click to expand...

No, that is not what my religion teaches. It teaches that all religions are different, but they are part of the continually unfolding religion of God which is one religion, and they are all leading humanity towards one goal, the spiritual evolution of mankind.

My religion teaches that as originally revealed by God in scriptures, all the religions were true, but everything that the religious believers of the older religions now believe is not true, because many of the original teachings of their religions have been corrupted by their religious leaders over the passage of time.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

Barry Johnson said:

What you believe is no different to the basic premise in all cults . Take the Jehovah’s witnesses. There teachings are borrowed from christianity and they put there own spin on it.

Click to expand...

It is clearly apparent that you believe that your brand of Christianity is the be-all and the end-all of everything.
Sorry to have to say this but that belief is arrogant to the max.

What I believe is not 'borrowed' from Christianity, it was 'revealed' by Baha'u'llah.

A revelation from God - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

loverofhumanity said:

That’s an awesome book.

Click to expand...

And it is the incontrovertible proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.
Even if there was no other proof, which there is, that one book would be enough proof.

Trailblazer said:

Apparently you are unable to think outside that box. What you do not understand is that what the religious believers say is just what they believe. As such, it is meaningless, since it is NOT what their scriptures say. Christians and Muslims want to believe that they teach is the truth and that others are wrong, and that is why they believe it, not because their scriptures say it.

No, that is not what my religion teaches. It teaches that all religions are different, but they are part of the continually unfolding religion of God which is one religion, and they are all leading humanity towards one goal, the spiritual evolution of mankind.

My religion teaches that as originally revealed by God in scriptures, all the religions were true, but everything that the religious believers of the older religions now believe is not true, because many of the original teachings of their religions have been corrupted by their religious leaders over the passage of time.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

Click to expand...

That’s a great quote. So true.

Barry Johnson said:

I to used to have a similar way of viewing the bible before I was saved . I used to take a verse from the bible and because of what I'd learned outside the bible, from Eastern mysticism id have a wacky interpretation of it . Like " consider the lillies' of course id look at this and think ooh yeah consider those lillies, focus on them ,meditate on them ,let the past and future dissolve and focus on the lillies blah blah blah. But thats not what the verses say lol . I see many do this today because of certain teachings that come from other religions.

Click to expand...

But now you know exactly what the Bible means because you are saved? Sorry, that does not comport with logic.
The Bible can have more than one meaning and its meanings can never be exhausted.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

cOLTER said:

The Son of God exit's from the eternal I AM, before this world was.

Click to expand...

That is true because Prophets, unlike ordinary humans, had preexistence in the spiritual world, which has no beginning and no end.

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to
picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

cOLTER said:

Jesus as such was always both human and divine in one miraculous personality.

Click to expand...

That is also true, Jesus was both human and divine because He had a twofold nature..

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself…. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?" ” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

cOLTER said:

The incarnate Son could have relinquished his life and returned to heaven on his own, but the Son and the Father decided to take the course of action that they did, laying down his mortal life for all to see and returning on his own to be seen by believers.

Click to expand...

If Jesus was seen, He was seen in a spiritual body that appeared to be just like a physical body. I do not know why anyone would ever doubt that Jesus could make Himself appear real, because after all He did many miracles that were more challenging than that.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

Some Answered Questions, p. 100

1213 said:

At least people seem to have thought he said so, because:

saying, "Sir, we remember what that deceiver said while he was still alive: 'After three days I will rise again.'
Matt. 27:63

Click to expand...

What does "rise again" mean? Unless Jesus died and rose before this, it cannot be referring to His body rising again.
It does not matter what others thought, where are the verses where Jesus said that His physical body would rise from the dead?

The following verses don't qualify for two reasons:

1) We don't know what Jesus meant by temple, and
2) Jesus did not say that the temple He spoke of was His body, someone else said that.

John 2 King James Version (KJV)

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

loverofhumanity said:

That’s an awesome book.

Click to expand...

Did you know that much of what is in the book was made into a video talk after Sears died?

Trailblazer said:

Every book in the NT that 'you believe' mentions the return of Jesus is not about Jesus returning in the same body, it is about the return of the Christ Spirit in another human body. All these verses you 'believe' are about Jesus are about Baha'u'llah, who was the return of Christ.

Sorry, you cannot make that work. The same Jesus was never planning to return to earth, as the Bible clearly says:

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

Click to expand...

//Every book in the NT that 'you believe' mentions the return of Jesus is not about Jesus returning in the same body, it is about the return of the Christ Spirit in another human body.// Nope ,this is your religion which has taught you this . No Christian who reads and believes the NT could ever or has ever read such things . Its the equivalent of me saying the Quran doesn't REALLY say Muhammed existed as a man ,he was just a spirit . As much as I could try to make there scriptures say this ,I would be considered completely nutty by every Muslim scholar. I would have to accept thats not what ANY Muslim in any capacity teaches. What your proposing is similar . It flies in the face of what the bible says and the fact that no Christian has ever taught or seen in the NT,makes what your saying radically questionable. On the level of ' Elvis still lives ' , the moon landing never happened and the earth is flat .

Barry Johnson said:

//Every book in the NT that 'you believe' mentions the return of Jesus is not about Jesus returning in the same body, it is about the return of the Christ Spirit in another human body.// Nope ,this is your religion which has taught you this . No Christian who reads and believes the NT could ever or has ever read such things .

Click to expand...

And that is because they have been duped by Christianity to believe that Jesus is going to return in the same body, in spite if the fact that Jesus said His work was finished here and he was no more in the world. You cannot change what is in the Bible, all you can do is deny it.

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

The salient point is that Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the entire New Testament, yet you believe it anyway because that is what you want to believe and what the Church teaches.

Barry Johnson said:

What your proposing is similar . It flies in the face of what the bible says and the fact that no Christian has ever taught or seen in the NT,makes what your saying radically questionable. On the level of ' Elvis still lives ' , the moon landing never happened and the earth is flat .

Click to expand...

The belief that Jesus is coming down from heaven in the clouds is on the level of ' Elvis still lives ' , the moon landing never happened and the earth is flat.

What you believe and flies in the face of what the Bible says, and the fact that no Christian has ever taught it means you have been duped by the false prophets is the Church without ever even knowing it.

"As Jesus prophesied, the false prophets contrived to change the essential meaning of the Gospel so that it became quite different from that which the Bible recorded or Jesus taught.

Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people."

From: Christ and Baha'u'llah

1 God's Call to the Christians . . . . . . . . . .11
2 The Kingdom in the Bible . . . . . . . . . . . .14
3 Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom .. . 20
4 The False Prophets . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .25

Trailblazer said:

...We don't know ...

Click to expand...

That is true, we don’t know anything about what really happened 2000 years ago, we just believe, or not believe. I believe Bible is correct recording of that happened and also tells correctly what Jesus taught, even though I don’t think Bible is written by Jesus.

Trailblazer said:

So what is the significance of Jesus rising from the dead and why is it such a big deal to people?

Click to expand...

Do you really care what the answer a "born-again" Christian is going to give? It doesn't sound like it.

loverofhumanity said:

My belief is that it caters to the ego’s desire to feel superior to everyone else. This attitude promotes egotistical condescension of other Prophets and Faiths and the clergy use it to keep their followers from joining other religions.

Click to expand...

It is the NT that says Jesus rose from the dead.

Trailblazer said:

as the Bible clearly says:

Click to expand...

But Baha'is know best what the Bible really says and means?

Trailblazer said:

has been proven

Click to expand...

Proven? By Bill Sears? In his book?

Trailblazer said:

Thief in the Night by William Sears

Click to expand...

Trailblazer said:

And it is the incontrovertible proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.

Click to expand...

"Incontrovertible proof"?

Trailblazer said:

What you do not understand is that what the religious believers say is just what they believe. As such, it is meaningless, since it is NOT what their scriptures say. Christians and Muslims want to believe that they teach is the truth and that others are wrong, and that is why they believe it, not because their scriptures say it.

Click to expand...

So Christians believe things that can't be backed up by their Scriptures?

Trailblazer said:

It is clearly apparent that you believe that your brand of Christianity is the be-all and the end-all of everything.

Click to expand...

When we all know it is the Baha'i Faith that in this day and age is the end all.

Trailblazer said:

But now you know exactly what the Bible means because you are saved?

Click to expand...

Baha'is and born-again Christians are talking about two completely separate spiritual/religious realities. Christians cherry picked the Jewish Bible to "prove" that Jesus is who they say he is. Then they wrote things into their NT to have Jesus coming back to life and ascending into heaven. It is what those Christians believe. And it is the religion they built. Baha'is cannot have that Christianity stand as being the truth. Baha'is then cherry pick the Bible and the NT to "prove" that those Christians are wrong. And, in the end, who is right? The Baha'is of course. Unless, you're a Christian. Then naturally it was you that won the battle.

Where's the unity in that? Where's the peace in that? Sorry, I don't see the Baha'is bringing peace and unity between the different religions. It's still a back and forth argument about who is right and who is wrong.

So what is the significance of Jesus rising from the dead? For a born-again Christian everything. He is alive. He has risen. And... is coming back. For a Baha'i... nothing. Baha'is believe his body is dead and gone. Baha'is tell me that the whole story about the resurrection of Jesus is only symbolic... and that no way is he coming back. Great, Baha'is don't need that born-again Christian Jesus anyway. They have a Jesus of their own to believe in. That dead one.

Trailblazer said:

There have been so many threads being posted about Jesus rising from the dead, so I think it is about time someone asked why it matters so much to people, not only Christians but also atheists.

So what is the significance of Jesus rising from the dead and why is it such a big deal to people?

I have my own ideas but I do not want to give away my position until I have heard from others.

Click to expand...

If He rose from the dead - then God's promises are being fulfilled.