Noah's flood story, did it happen?

Fallen Prophet · May 22, 2021

Dan From Smithville said:
No. I don't know anything about that.

What I was referring to was contamination along trade routes through the Middle East and Asia.

Sure - that makes sense - but the example I shared came from the ancient Aztecs.

That is why I asked you if you believed ancient Egyptians cam to Mesoamerica.

Dan From Smithville said:
Do you think there are aliens that are here to mine gold?

Nope - but ancient astronaut theorists came up with the doozy to explain all the similarities between ancient Egypt and Mesoamerica.

Aliens did it.

Dan From Smithville said:
I imagine cowboys would have been a problem for them with their six shooters and sech.

Did you see that movie? Cowboys and Aliens?

I thought it was fun - and Olivia Wilde was hot - its just too bad about her personality though.

Subduction Zone · May 22, 2021

Dan From Smithville said:
I am pretty sure there was an orangutan in charge for a little while.

discworld-the-unseen-university-library-print-puzzle-terry-pratchett-blog-banner-placeholder.jpg

Jose Fly · May 22, 2021

Dan From Smithville said:
I am pretty sure there was an orangutan in charge for a little while.

Classic case of being promoted beyond one's abilities.

F1fan · May 22, 2021

Fallen Prophet said:
If you read any of my previous posts you'd realize the issues I'd take with this train of thought.

It would be impossible for whoever wrote the Genesis account of the Flood to claim that all of the mountains of the Earth had been covered or that only one Ark of people survived - since they couldn't see the entirety of the Earth at the time.

I believe they recorded what they could see - from their perspective - so it appeared that "all" the "mountains" had been covered and that "all" life had drowned.

It's possible that there were many localized Flood events all over the Earth that targeted civilizations or perhaps there was some cross culturalism that happened after the Flood event - some Phoenicians sailed to Mesoamerica to the story spread tot he Aztecs.

Are you suggesting the Bible is wrong and incomplete, that there were actually more Arks that were not disclosed? Well feel free to make up more details since you don't; seem satisfied with the Bible as it is.

Anything is possible and none of it changes the fact that the Flood event story is not isolated to ancient Hebrews. They didn't just make it up.

Also possible (and likely) the Bible story was copied and embellished.

I can neither confirm or deny this - but I'm still inclined to believe that God lives and that He has done many "miraculous" things on Earth for Man.

And it's possible you're completely wrong, yes?

Yes - many people believe in objective truth - and that our personal beliefs do not affect that truth.

Objective truth isn't believed in, it's objective and verifiable by anyone with functioning senses and a proper functioning brain. We don't have to believe things we can confirm, it's knowledge. We only believe things we are not certain of, nor can confirm.

So - if they believe that all Mankind fell and needed to be redeemed - then it would extend to all.

It's arrogant to assume one's own belief system has authority over others. It's a huge error of Christian theology to condemn non-Christians through doctrine. It was certainly a calculated political ploy at one point in history, but in the long run it ruins the message of love that Jesus taught. It's totally inconsistent and confuses believers.

It's similar to those who subscribe to the theory of evolution. Our personal beliefs wouldn't affect if we were products of evolution - would it?

Not relevant. Evolution isn't dogma that is believed in, it's a huge set of experiments in science that confirm how organisms evolve over time due to the pressure in their environments. We accept the results of these well designed tests in reality.

The only person God "created" was Adam. Eve came from Adam - and all their children from then on were subject to the whims of imperfect mortality.

None of this has a basis in fact or reality. Facts actually demonstrate this isn't true, so we throw it out.

Anyone who believes that God is micromanaging every aspect of our lives are just wrong. He set things up and He is ever extending His arms toward us - but we are free.

Almost as if you're making excuses for an absent God.

That's unfortunate and I wish them the best.

Have they tried "praying it away"?

They might as well try banging their heads against a wall. Studies demonstrate that prayer doesn't work. But thanks.

Fallen Prophet · May 22, 2021

gnostic said:
Said, who?

There are Jewish traditions that the Torah (called Pentateuch among Christians) - books including Genesis, were attributed to Moses, which according to 1 Kings 6:1, the exodus from Egyptian city of Rameses took place 480 years before King Solomon began construction of the Temple, which supposed took place 4th year of his reign or around 967 BCE.

So the date for leaving Egypt would be around 1447 BCE.

From Rameses, this was following 40 years of wandering in the wilderness with large population of Israelites, then his death, then followed by the invasion of Canaan, led by Joshua.

So supposedly, Moses wrote Genesis, Exodus, Numbers and Leviticus during their wandering.

The things, there are no archaeological evidence of their (Israelites) presence in Egypt, and in the places they stayed in the wilderness, and no evidence connecting them with invasion Canaan, and no evidence of either Moses and Joshua living in the 15th century BCE, which was the Late Bronze Age (c 1550 - 1050 BCE) in those regions.

There were no contemporary and independent records by the Egyptians and Canaanites that could verify any of the above events narrated from Genesis to Joshua.

And supposedly Moses recorded the events in Genesis, in which he was never eyewitness of, eg the Creation (Genesis 1 to 3), Flood (6 to 8) and the Tower of Babel (11), events that occurred centuries before his time.

And more importantly, there were no biblical texts of any kind existing in the Bronze Age (c 3100 - 1050 BCE). No literary evidence of any kind, not a single stone tablet, clay tablet, parchment, papyrus, inscriptions on the walls, coffins, etc, containing even a single biblical text in the Bronze Age.

All literary evidence showed that the Old Testament books existing only during the Iron Age, between Josiah’s reign (7th century BCE) to as late 2nd century BCE (eg Book of Job).

The oldest evidence of OT texts existing, were inscription on the 2 silver scrolls, containing passage of the Priestly Blessing from Numbers 6. These scrolls were worn as amulets, were found with other objects in a cave that served as tomb, located in Ketef Hinnom.

These objects were dated between 630 and 590 BCE. So the scrolls were inscribed some times before the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonian army. Most of the OT works were composed during Josiah’s reign to Babylonian Exile to their return home.

So if Moses didn’t write Genesis, and it was composed by someone during the Iron Age, then knowledge about Ararat and Euphrates and Tigris would be contemporary knowledge of geography.

You say, Genesis Ararat isn’t the same as the Ararat, and the Genesis Euphrates and Tigris (plus Eden) weren’t the same as that rivers of later times.

So I would ask you, “How could you possibly know that?”

But I don’t really need your answer, because I don’t you understand the Bible that you read.

For instance, you wrote this -

[QUOTE="Fallen Prophet“]Do you also assume that the Tigris and Euphrates rivers we know today are the same that the Genesis account claimed was in Eden?

But according to Genesis 2:14:

Did you miss the Tigris is associated with Assyria?

I am not saying Eden exist in Tigris and Euphrates, because I think Eden is pure myth. So your claim is wrong that Genesis isn’t talking about the same rivers today, because it is.[/QUOTE]
Most of what you said was irrelevant.

I never claimed to "know" anything - only that there was no reason to assume that these places mentioned in Genesis - (including Assyria) - are the same places we associate the names with today.

Why do you assume that we should believe they are the same? What evidence do you have to support that conclusion?

Subduction Zone · May 22, 2021

Fallen Prophet said:
But according to Genesis 2:14:

Did you miss the Tigris is associated with Assyria?

I am not saying Eden exist in Tigris and Euphrates, because I think Eden is pure myth. So your claim is wrong that Genesis isn’t talking about the same rivers today, because it is.
Most of what you said was irrelevant.

I never claimed to "know" anything - only that there was no reason to assume that these places mentioned in Genesis - (including Assyria) - are the same places we associate the names with today.

Why do you assume that we should believe they are the same? What evidence do you have to support that conclusion?

Odd isn't it how most creation myths tend to be local?

Dan From Smithville · May 22, 2021

Fallen Prophet said:
Sure - that makes sense - but the example I shared came from the ancient Aztecs.

That is why I asked you if you believed ancient Egyptians cam to Mesoamerica.

I haven't seen anything that would make me conclude that.

Fallen Prophet said:
Nope - but ancient astronaut theorists came up with the doozy to explain all the similarities between ancient Egypt and Mesoamerica.

Aliens did it.

Of course. If you have nothing better to do and want attention elaborate the fantastical.

Fallen Prophet said:
Did you see that movie? Cowboys and Aliens?

I thought it was fun - and Olivia Wilde was hot - its just too bad about her personality though.

I liked it. Yes, she is hot.

Fallen Prophet · May 22, 2021

Dan From Smithville said:
The ancient Hebrews didn't make it up. They took a story that already existed from another culture and adapted it to their culture.

But Noah wasn't a Hebrew. The ancient Israelites wrote down the story of man - a man and story that had existed long before they did.

How was that an "adaptation" to their culture? Because they believed that Noah spoke to the same God they believed in?

Dan From Smithville said:
I know of no substantive evidence that the story spread from the Middle East to South America. Is that your alien gold miner hypothesis?

It's not my hypothesis.

All I said was that ancient Mesoamerica also had global Flood stories in their past.

So - if they didn't get it from the Middle East - how did they get it?

Dan From Smithville said:
I agree with you on that. I do not believe that God is micromanaging all our lives.

Cool beans.

Dan From Smithville · May 22, 2021

Jose Fly said:
Classic case of being promoted beyond one's abilities.

I would have preferred Clyde from the Clint Eastwood movie.

Dan From Smithville · May 22, 2021

Fallen Prophet said:
But Noah wasn't a Hebrew. The ancient Israelites wrote down the story of man - a man and story that had existed long before they did.

How was that an "adaptation" to their culture? Because they believed that Noah spoke to the same God they believed in?

They took the story of Gilgamesh that was older and adapted it to their monotheistic view.

Fallen Prophet said:
It's not my hypothesis.

Glad to hear that. I don't see any reason to put any stock in such fantastical explanations that lack robust evidence.

Fallen Prophet said:
All I said was that ancient Mesoamerica also had global Flood stories in their past.

That is not quite all you said, but having global flood stories is not strong evidence for a global flood.

Fallen Prophet said:
So - if they didn't get it from the Middle East - how did they get it?

Perhaps they made up their own. There is nothing that prevented them from using their imaginations.

Fallen Prophet said:
Cool beans.

Too right.[/QUOTE]

Subduction Zone · May 22, 2021

Fallen Prophet said:
But Noah wasn't a Hebrew. The ancient Israelites wrote down the story of man - a man and story that had existed long before they did.

How was that an "adaptation" to their culture? Because they believed that Noah spoke to the same God they believed in?

It's not my hypothesis.

All I said was that ancient Mesoamerica also had global Flood stories in their past.

So - if they didn't get it from the Middle East - how did they get it?

Cool beans.

Noah was fictional. The Hebrews took an older Babylonian story and adapted that fictional story to their own personal mythology.

And rivers tend to flood all around the world. People need fresh water so they often live alongside rivers. Guess what happens to stories as time goes by? They tend to grow. The various flood myths probably started out as real world floods. Please note the plural.

Dan From Smithville · May 22, 2021

Somebody stop me!

Dan From Smithville · May 22, 2021

Subduction Zone said:

Unfortunately not that one nor Dr. Zaius.

Fallen Prophet · May 22, 2021

F1fan said:
Are you suggesting the Bible is wrong and incomplete, that there were actually more Arks that were not disclosed?

The Bible is not a perfect and complete record of anything.

I'm not making any claims as to other Arks or other human survivors of the Flood event.

I just made the point that the claims made in the Book of Genesis are those made from a very limited perspective.

There is no way it could make any claims about the status of the entire planet.

F1fan said:
Well feel free to make up more details since you don't; seem satisfied with the Bible as it is.

I haven't made any claims so I haven't "made up" anything.

I believe that the Bible is only as true as the translation and interpretation of it is true.

What the correct translation and interpretation is anyone's guess.

F1fan said:
Also possible (and likely) the Bible story was copied and embellished.

As to it being an embellishment - I cannot confirm or deny - but the first five books of the Old Testament are attributed to Moses - and he was not present for any of the events in Genesis.

So - obviously - he got the information from a some source. It being a copy wouldn't make it any less true or false though.

F1fan said:
And it's possible you're completely wrong, yes?

My God you're antagonistic.

Yes - it is possible for me to be wrong.

Why do you ask such stupid questions?

F1fan said:
Objective truth isn't believed in, it's objective and verifiable by anyone with functioning senses and a proper functioning brain. We don't have to believe things we can confirm, it's knowledge. We only believe things we are not certain of, nor can confirm.

You should be careful - this is 2021 - and this outdated thinking just isn't true anymore.

I mean - people can claim that they are cats. That's "their truth".

Anyways - an objective truth is an objective truth - whether it can be proven or not doesn't matter.

F1fan said:
It's arrogant to assume one's own belief system has authority over others.

How so?

F1fan said:
It's a huge error of Christian theology to condemn non-Christians through doctrine.

Condemn? Who is talking about condemning anyone?

Christian theology - what I understand of it - claims that redemption is a free gift to all and that salvation is extended to all.

F1fan said:
It was certainly a calculated political ploy at one point in history, but in the long run it ruins the message of love that Jesus taught. It's totally inconsistent and confuses believers.

I agree that His message should not be used politically.

F1fan said:
Not relevant. Evolution isn't dogma that is believed in, it's a huge set of experiments in science that confirm how organisms evolve over time due to the pressure in their environments. We accept the results of these well designed tests in reality.

I disagree and argue that most - if not all - of scientific fields of study are plagued by dogmatism.

Tweaking the "facts" to fit their theories.

F1fan said:
None of this has a basis in fact or reality. Facts actually demonstrate this isn't true, so we throw it out.

So - according to you - when two people are having a conversation about God and the Bible (which didn't include you) - it's inappropriate to mention what is contained in the Bible?

Me and the other RF member were having a theological discussion.

F1fan said:
Almost as if you're making excuses for an absent God.

Aw - so it is your opinion that unless a father is a "helicopter parent" - then he is absent?

I feel bad for your children.

F1fan said:
They might as well try banging their heads against a wall. Studies demonstrate that prayer doesn't work. But thanks.

Yeah - I know - that's why the joke was funny.

I don't like you.

Subduction Zone · May 22, 2021

Dan From Smithville said:
Unfortunately not that one nor Dr. Zaius.

A recent interview featuring Dr. Zaius. It should start at the interview:

Colt · May 22, 2021

InChrist said:
There are plenty of biblical passages that show the Canaanites were never completely destroyed, so of course there is evidence of their existence and DNA remaining...

Read Joshua 13:1-6
This shows areas not yet conquered, including Lebanon, even when Joshua reached old age.

“And it came to pass, when Israel was strong, that they put the Canaanites under tribute, but did not completely drive them out.”
Judges1:28

Read:
Judges 1:27-33

Exactly! Judges was written nearly 4 centuries later after they claimed to have killed them all.

Joshua 10:40 40So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

Fallen Prophet · May 22, 2021

Dan From Smithville said:
They took the story of Gilgamesh that was older and adapted it to their monotheistic view.

The story of Gilgamesh is older than what? Moses?

Well that is obviously true - and the story of Noah is older than Moses to.

Its possible that both the ancient Mesopotamians and Hebrews were recording the same story.

But which got it right?

Dan From Smithville said:
Glad to hear that. I don't see any reason to put any stock in such fantastical explanations that lack robust evidence.

I have read some of their literature and I find it compelling. Definitely worth the read - but I don't believe it.

Dan From Smithville said:
That is not quite all you said, but having global flood stories is not strong evidence for a global flood.

That is really all I said - besides asking for an explanation.

Dan From Smithville said:
Perhaps they made up their own. There is nothing that prevented them from using their imaginations.

Have you ever read from the Popul Vuh (The Mayan Bible) or the Annals of the Cakchiquels -- Lords of Totonicapan?

They were works of the Qiche Maya - explaining their lineages and mythology - and they not only mention a great Flood event - but that their ancestors came from across the ocean and were descendants of Israel.

It even describes the story remarkably similar to Moses parting the Red Sea to lead a nation of people through - even though they used other names.

It's interesting stuff and I just want an explanation.

It Aint Necessarily So · May 22, 2021

No, there was no global flood for many reasons. No need to repeat them all here again. It's not just the problem with so much water not presently here on earth arriving and then disappearing. Consider the beating the ark would take if 30,000 feet of water fell in about 1000 hours (40 days). That's 30 feet an hour assuming it was raining everywhere on the surface of the earth the entire time, or the height of a three-story building. That never happens - two inches of rain in an hour is a downpour - plus that ship would fall apart. Or what did the animals eat after disembarking - I mean the ones not eaten on the ark. And how did the emperor penguins get back to the poles? There's at least another dozen of these.

What intrigues me about the flood story is why it exists. Here we have the story of the engineering, moral and intellectual failure of a deity said to be perfect and loving. Why include a story about a god who makes a mistake during creation, regrets it, attempts to remedy it, but does so in a cruel way, and then decides to repopulate the earth with the same breeding stock. This is not a flattering story. So why is it there?

I suggest that the story exists to account for the presence of marine fossils on mountaintops. We know now that these are former sea floors that were uplifted, but that wouldn't be a possibility to the ancients. To them, clearly, the whole world was submerged. And so, they needed to invent a reason why God would cover the world in water, and they chose the punishment motif. As I said, not a flattering story about this deity, but apparently that wasn't a problem for believers, who assume that their god is good and righteous, so somehow, this global flood was as well.

If I may digress to another Bible subject that really doesn't make a lot of sense from a theological perspective, but does from a practical, pecuniary one - the Sabbath. Why should a god need to take a day off after six days labor, and why should people be commanded by a god to do the same in imitation?

I suggest that it has to do with the rise of the priestly class and the advent of organized religion and centralized places of worship. Before this, we can presume that every able bodied person was expected to work every day.

But now, people were being asked to come to a place of worship to support the priestly class, which journey might be several hours travel in each direction. Suddenly, it became important to teach that not only is a day off from work not ungodly, but au contraire, it is holy and commanded.

It's likely where the week comes from, and the original weekend. Days, months, and years are all tied to astronomical cycles, but the week is strictly artificial. Going to the synagogue once a month or once a year was too infrequently, and once a day was too often, so the week was born and the story of the six days of creation and one day of rest came to be.

Fallen Prophet · May 22, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Noah was fictional. The Hebrews took an older Babylonian story and adapted that fictional story to their own personal mythology.

And rivers tend to flood all around the world. People need fresh water so they often live alongside rivers. Guess what happens to stories as time goes by? They tend to grow. The various flood myths probably started out as real world floods. Please note the plural.

I cannot confirm or deny any of this. No one can.

However - if the Noah story happened as described in the Genesis account - then the ancient Mesopotamians knowing a version of the story is plausible.

Subduction Zone · May 22, 2021

Fallen Prophet said:
The story of Gilgamesh is older than what? Moses?

Well that is obviously true - and the story of Noah is older than Moses to.

Its possible that both the ancient Mesopotamians and Hebrews were recording the same story.

But which got it right?

I have read some of their literature and I find it compelling. Definitely worth the read - but I don't believe it.

That is really all I said - besides asking for an explanation.

Have you ever read from the Popul Vuh (The Mayan Bible) or the Annals of the Cakchiquels -- Lords of Totonicapan?

They were works of the Qiche Maya - explaining their lineages and mythology - and they not only mention a great Flood event - but that their ancestors came from across the ocean and were descendants of Israel.

It even describes the story remarkably similar to Moses parting the Red Sea to lead a nation of people through - even though they used other names.

It's interesting stuff and I just want an explanation.

Moses appears to be another mythical character of the Bible. Serious scholars do not think that Moses wrote the Pentateuch.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/10/was-moses-real/

NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Moses and the Exodus | PBS

And you need a valid source for your various claims.

Noah's flood story, did it happen?

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