My feelings about death

Trailblazer · May 21, 2021

Thief said:
it's been awhile since the op

and I did not read the entire thread

but can you summarize any changes.....
are you different now?

Am I different now compared to how I felt when I started the OP on December 25?

My thoughts and feelings come and go, and they change depending upon what crisis I am in. I get stable for maybe a few weeks at the most, and then I have another crisis, but somehow I endure and get through it, because what other choice do I have?

Right now, I feel as I did when I wrote the OP, only worse, because my husband is very ill and I could lose him too, and he is all I have left besides the cats -- no children, no grandchildren, no friends except on forums, no nothing. And where is God? Nowhere.

This world is a dark and narrow place and I want nothing more than to be free of it, but I have my responsibilities and those I love, my cats and my husband. On the other hand, I have no interest in going to God's heaven, so I feel trapped in between two worlds.

If my suffering was benefiting anyone, I would not mind it, but I cannot know or see if it is, and I cannot see how constant suffering is a benefit to me. But I guess God sees it differently and I hope the following is true.

Bahá’u’lláh urges the people of the Bayán to do likewise, counselling them to adorn their beings with the mantle of resignation, to be steadfast in the Cause of God, and never to be dismayed or disheartened by adversity. And He reminds them that, whereas God rewards every good deed in accordance with its merit, in the case of patience and long-suffering, as attested in the Qur’án, the recompense is limitless.[^1] [1]: 'Those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure.' (Qur’án xxxix. 10.Translated by ‘Abdu’lláh Yusuf ‘Alí.)
—————
Adib Taherzadeh, "The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh vol. 1"

Thief · May 21, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Am I different now compared to how I felt when I started the OP on December 25?

My thoughts and feelings come and go, and they change depending upon what crisis I am in. I get stable for maybe a few weeks at the most, and then I have another crisis, but somehow I endure and get through it, because what other choice do I have?

Right now, I feel as I did when I wrote the OP, only worse, because my husband is very ill and I could lose him too, and he is all I have left besides the cats -- no children, no grandchildren, no friends except on forums, no nothing. And where is God? Nowhere.

This world is a dark and narrow place and I want nothing more than to be free of it, but I have my responsibilities and those I love, my cats and my husband. On the other hand, I have no interest in going to God's heaven, so I feel trapped in between two worlds.

If my suffering was benefiting anyone, I would not mind it, but I cannot know or see if it is, and I cannot see how constant suffering is a benefit to me. But I guess God sees it differently and I hope the following is true.

Bahá’u’lláh urges the people of the Bayán to do likewise, counselling them to adorn their beings with the mantle of resignation, to be steadfast in the Cause of God, and never to be dismayed or disheartened by adversity. And He reminds them that, whereas God rewards every good deed in accordance with its merit, in the case of patience and long-suffering, as attested in the Qur’án, the recompense is limitless.[^1] [1]: 'Those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure.' (Qur’án xxxix. 10.Translated by ‘Abdu’lláh Yusuf ‘Alí.)
—————
Adib Taherzadeh, "The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh vol. 1"

you have pronounced.....hope

hang in there

Aupmanyav · May 21, 2021

Trailblazer said:
".. to be steadfast in the Cause of God, .. whereas God rewards every good deed in accordance with its merit, .. as attested in the Qur’án, .."

What evidence you have for existence of God? What is the value of an attestation in Tanakh, Bible or Quran?

Trailblazer · May 21, 2021

Aupmanyav said:
What evidence you have for existence of God?

The Messengers of God.

Aupmanyav said:
What is the value of an attestation in Tanakh, Bible or Quran?

It is God's message.

Aupmanyav · May 21, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The Messengers of God. It is God's message.

That is circular reasoning: Messenger from God, Message from God, that God has chosen this person as his messenger and the person claims to be that. No proof of God, messenger or message, except what he says or writes.

Trailblazer · May 21, 2021

Aupmanyav said:
That is circular reasoning: Messenger from God, Message from God, that God has chosen this person as his messenger and the person claims to be that. No proof of God, messenger or message, except what he says or writes.

It is not circular at all.

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

My reasoning is not circular because I did not begin with what I wanted to end with. I am not using what Baha’u’llah claimed to prove who Baha'u'llah was, In other words, I did not say that Baha’u’llah is a Messenger of God because Baha’u’llah claimed He was a Messenger of God.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger is not that Baha’u’llah claimed to be a Messenger because that would be circular reasoning.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, including who He was as a Person (His character); His mission on earth; the history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward; the scriptures that He wrote; what His appointed Interpreters wrote; what others have written about the Baha’i Faith; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, as well as prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that He established (followers) all over the world and what they have done and are doing now.

There is no way to prove that anyone was a Messenger of God as a fact, but one can prove it to themselves by looking at the evidence. There is enough evidence for Baha’u’llah to sink a ship, and those who really want to know the truth will do the research, since the information is readily available to research online.

Aupmanyav · May 21, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, ..
There is no way to prove that anyone was a Messenger of God as a fact, ..

Yeah, enough evidence for the believer, and no evidence for others. You understand the problem about evidence. True for all claims of being a prophet / son / messenger / manifestation / mahdi. Like in case of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahamdiyyas (Ahmadiyya - Wikipedia) - you do not believe that he was the Mahdi sent by Allah.

Trailblazer · May 21, 2021

Aupmanyav said:
Yeah, enough evidence for the believer, and no evidence for others.

Evidence is evidence.

Aupmanyav said:
Like in case of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahamdiyyas (Ahmadiyya - Wikipedia) - you do not believe that he was the Mahdi sent by Allah.

What evidence does he have to back up that claim?

Aupmanyav · May 21, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Evidence is evidence.

All evidence is not equal. Do you mean stories in Tanakh, Bible, Quran or even Bhagawat Purana are all believable - the Flood, parting of the sea or the three million wandering in Sinai desert for 40 years? Is the vision of the 'Heavenly maiden" mentioned by Bahaollah an evidence? It could have been hallucination of a megalomaniac or plain charlatanry.

Trailblazer · May 21, 2021

Aupmanyav said:
All evidence is not equal. Do you mean stories in Tanakh, Bible, Quran or even Bhagawat Purana are all believable - the Flood, parting of the sea or the three million wandering in Sinai desert for 40 years?

No, all evidence is not equal, because some religions have better evidence to back up their beliefs than other religions. The Baha'i Faith has the best evidence because much of it is verifiable, since it is contemporary history and we have the original Writings of Baha'u'llah. The older religions don't have any of that.

Aupmanyav said:
Is the vision of the 'Heavenly maiden" mentioned by Bahaollah an evidence? It could have been hallucination of a megalomaniac or plain charlatanry.

No, the Maiden is not part of the evidence, that was just the way the Holy Spirit communicated to Baha'u'llah.
Hallucinations do not produce the quality and the quantity of writings like what Baha'u'llah wrote.
There would have been no logical reason for Baha'u'llah to feign a Revelation from God since all He got for what He did on His mission was 40 years of suffering, exile and banishment from place to place. You can read about on this slideshow:

The Life of Baha’u’llah, a photographic narrative

Aupmanyav · May 22, 2021

Trailblazer said:
No, the Maiden is not part of the evidence, that was just the way the Holy Spirit communicated to Baha'u'llah.
Hallucinations do not produce the quality and the quantity of writings like what Baha'u'llah wrote.
There would have been no logical reason for Baha'u'llah to feign a Revelation from God since all He got for what He did on His mission was 40 years of suffering, exile and banishment from place to place. You can read about on this slideshow:

If the Holy Spirit that Bahais claim to have communicated with Bahaollah, why is it not an evidence? I wish it could have left some material evidence like the stone tablets that Yahweh gave to Moses. Monotheistic religion have no evidence which can stand scrutiny. What Bahaollah said or wrote in his own praise and authority is no evidence. How is it different from self-promotion or a snake-oil seller's rant?
Bahaollah was living comfortably in Acre for most of time (Bahji mansion). He had three wives and 14 children. Obviously, he was not living in penury. He had his followers who were financing his expenses as well as that of his family. His son and great grandson benefited from the veneration of his followers. It is another thing Bahaollah's the line did not go beyond Shoghi.

Trailblazer · May 22, 2021

Aupmanyav said:
If the Holy Spirit that Bahais claim to have communicated with Bahaollah, why is it not an evidence? I wish it could have left some material evidence like the stone tablets that Yahweh gave to Moses.

Are those stone Tablets anywhere in existence now? Has anyone even verified that they ever existed? We know that the original Tablets that Baha'u'llah wrote exist in a vault at the Bahai World Centre.

Aupmanyav said:
Monotheistic religion have no evidence which can stand scrutiny. What Bahaollah said or wrote in his own praise and authority is no evidence.

Baha'u'llah only praised God, never Himself.

Aupmanyav said:
Bahaollah was living comfortably in Acre for most of time (Bahji mansion). He had three wives and 14 children. Obviously, he was not living in penury. He had his followers who were financing his expenses as well as that of his family. His son and great grandson benefited from the veneration of his followers. It is another thing Bahaollah's the line did not go beyond Shoghi.

I have no idea where you are getting your information. The accurate information is in the slideshow.

The Life of Baha’u’llah, a photographic narrative

It can also be found in the following books:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

Aupmanyav · May 22, 2021

Trailblazer said:
We know that the original Tablets that Baha'u'llah wrote exist in a vault at the Bahai World Centre.

Did he write on clay tablets perhaps in cuniform script? If not, why do you mention them as tablets? Say that they were notes written by him. They exist in the Bahai vault and not all have been translated till now. So, you can come up with new notes as and when situation demands. What a nice schema?

Trailblazer · May 22, 2021

Aupmanyav said:
Did he write on clay tablets perhaps in cuniform script? If not, why do you mention them as tablets? Say that they were notes written by him. They exist in the Bahai vault and not all have been translated till now. So, you can come up with new notes as and when situation demands. What a nice schema?

I do not know what they are called tablets. The UHJ is in charge of the original tablets and they will not add to what Baha'u'llah wrote, the way the Christians messed with the Bible, adding and subtracting whatever they wanted to until it was canonized. The UHJ is a legislative body that has authority to make decisions about principles or actions which are not expressly revealed in the Writings of Baha'u'llah and it also legislates as to when it is timely for certain of the Laws of Baha'u'llah in the Aqdas to be practiced.

Aupmanyav · May 22, 2021

Who knows what Bahaollah wrote (not that it matters much to me) and what corrections Abdul Baha, Shoghi and the HoJ made later? HoJ is an opaque organization. Did not Abdul Baha added Hinduism and Buddhism to the list at a later time when Bahaollah himself said nothing about Buddhism? Is that not a corruption of the meswsage from your Allah? What all other corrections / interpolations / modifications were made in your Allah's message?

Trailblazer · May 22, 2021

Aupmanyav said:
Who knows what Bahaollah wrote (not that it matters much to me) and what corrections Abdul Baha, Shoghi and the HoJ made later?

Nobody added to or changed what Baha'u'llah wrote.

Aupmanyav said:
HoJ is an opaque organization. Did not Abdul Baha added Hinduism and Buddhism to the list at a later time when Bahaollah himself said nothing about Buddhism? Is that not a corruption of the message from your Allah? What all other corrections / interpolations / modifications were made in your Allah's message?

Just because Baha'u'llah did not write about Hinduism and Buddhism that does not mean they were not on the list of great world religions. That was not a modification, it was an addition, and Abdu'l-Baha was given the authority to expand upon and interpret what Baha'u'llah wrote by virtue of the will and testament of Baha'u'llah.

Aupmanyav · May 22, 2021

Aha, extended messengership for Abdul Baha! Father to son and son to great grandson. 'Add whatever you like'.

Trailblazer said:
That was not a modification, it was an addition, ..

Very funny. Actually extremely funny. 'An addition is not a modification'.

Trailblazer · May 22, 2021

Aupmanyav said:
Aha, extended messengership for Abdul Baha! Father to son and son to great grandson. 'Add whatever you like'.
Very funny. Actually extremely funny. 'An addition is not a modification'.

I actually agree with you on this one...

Some of these additions were modifications not done by the grandson but by the son, and I do not accept all of the additions. So be it. It is not Baha'u'llah's fault and takes nothing from Him. He is still who He is.

Aupmanyav · May 22, 2021

Yeah, a 19th Century uneducated Iranian Shia Muslim who claimed to be a manifestation of Allah.

Aupmanyav · May 22, 2021

But had no proof to show for existence of Allah, soul or his being chosen as a manifestation. However, followers satisfied with whatever evidence was given.

My feelings about death

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