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My feelings about death

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
With all due respect, how does Jesus knowing the meaning of love fix anything in this fallen world?
If having a Savior was going to fix the fallen world, it would have done so by now, as it has been over 2000 years since Jesus walked the earth.

Hellbound Serpiente said: Mother nature is dark and brutal. All the living are involved in killing of other living, either intentionally or unintentionally.

How does Jesus' love fix the darkness and brutality of mother nature?
Jesus did not fix every faults of humanity:) he gave a teaching that was meant for humans to realize their own fall, so humans could fix their own faults and realize a truth for how to gain access to heaven again, this teaching humans called Christianity.
But each person has to do the dirty work of fixing our own faults, no matter what spiritual teaching we follow.
Spiritual teaching is only the recipies for used to use in our personal quest for truth.

This is of course only my understanding, so feel free to disagree with it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus did not fix every faults of humanity:) he gave a teaching that was meant for humans to realize their own fall, so humans could fix their own faults and realize a truth for how to gain access to heaven again, this teaching humans called Christianity.
But each person has to do the dirty work of fixing our own faults, no matter what spiritual teaching we follow.
Spiritual teaching is only the recipies for used to use in our personal quest for truth.

This is of course only my understanding, so feel free to disagree with it.
I do not disagree with it, I fully agree, and I could not have stated it any better. :)
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
I'm truly sorry to hear about the lossof your family members, @Trailblazer.

I can't really add or contribute anything that hasn't already been said by you or anyone else in this thread.

It's amazing to think how people (both human any furry companions) impact our lives, though. The memories they leave behind, and the ways they change the course our life takes is an experience that stays with us. I can't help but be reminded of how we impact the lives of others, and how they will remember us.

Today I had a patient in the ICU who was the nicest guy ever. He was looking forward to having a pace maker placed into his chest, because he could get back to doing all the things he loved like going on hikes and rock hounding. He was doccumenting his stay there at the hospital, and even took a picture of me to add to those records.

Though I only play a small role in his life, he felt like I was worthy of remembering in that brief moment. There are plenty of people I can think of who mattered to me, too, even if they might have not realised how important of a role they played in my life. Make no mistake; you have that impact on others, too.

I think what makes death such a ******* is that he can end up hurting us more with the more that we care. Some people get jaded and synical, but I guess I'd rather appreciate people I've known and raise a drink to the privilage of having known them.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Thanks for your concern and kind words.

We have lost a lot of cats as I said in the OP, but none of the cats ever died of a virus or a bacterial infection.
One had cancer and another one had a rare neurological problem, but all the other cats died of heart disease or kidney disease and some had both. Unfortunately, most of them had HCM in their genes which was passed down from their parents. It is not unusual for cats to die of kidney disease, but Persian cats are particularly susceptible.

All I can do is turn to God and know that God knows my pain and loss.
I cannot say I am attached to God by His love, that is a work in progress. :)
Oh, okay.
Do you get the cats. having the knowledge that they are diseased, and will die sooner or later?

In your time of mourning, I don't want to trouble you, but can I ask about something you said a few posts above?

If you don't believe that there ever was an Adam and Eve, how can you believe that there ever was a Jesus, who said,". . .from the beginning of creation, ‘He made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother, and the two will be one flesh,’ so that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”? Mark 10:6-9

If you don't think those words were said by Jesus, and someone concocted them, how can you believe anything else said in those books?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Oh, okay.
Do you get the cats. having the knowledge that they are diseased, and will die sooner or later?
No, I do not get them knowing that. All of the cats that have died in the last 20 years were kittens that were born in our house. Sadly, when we bought the parents we did not know that they carried a gene for heart disease.
If you don't believe that there ever was an Adam and Eve, how can you believe that there ever was a Jesus, who said,". . .from the beginning of creation, ‘He made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother, and the two will be one flesh,’ so that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”? Mark 10:6-9

If you don't think those words were said by Jesus, and someone concocted them, how can you believe anything else said in those books?
Simple. Jesus said "from the beginning of creation, ‘He made them male and female." But Jesus did not say that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman. That is impossible, unless science has it all wrong. Do you really believe that humans were created 6000 years ago?

While our ancestors have been around for about six million years, the modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilization as we know it is only about 6,000 years old, and industrialization started in the earnest only in the 1800s.Jan 19, 2015

How Long Have Humans Been On Earth? - Universe Today


To my knowledge, Jesus never said anything about Adam and Eve or anything about original sin. All that is Christian doctrine based upon the 'allegorical story' of Adam and Eve, which I believe was misinterpreted and misunderstand. Jesus might have died for our sins, but not for sins we inherited from Adam and Eve, at least not the way Christians believe our sins were inherited.

This is how I believe the descendants of Adam inherited the sins of Adam:

“For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 124-125


You can read the whole chapter on this link: 30: ADAM AND EVE

"For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin," is perfectly congruent with what Jesus said about attachment to our life in this world:

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I do not fear my own death either. The only people who suffer from death are those that are left behind.
I find the figurative humble ' sheep' at the soon coming time of Matthew 25:37 are Not left behind.
Rather, they are ' saved/delivered/rescued ' through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14; Revelation 7:9.
Even the wicked are Not 'left behind' to suffer because the wicked are: ' destroyed forever ' they ' perish ' as per Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:30; 2 Peter 3:9
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
No, I do not get them knowing that. All of the cats that have died in the last 20 years were kittens that were born in our house. Sadly, when we bought the parents we did not know that they carried a gene for heart disease.

Simple. Jesus said "from the beginning of creation, ‘He made them male and female." But Jesus did not say that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman. That is impossible, unless science has it all wrong. Do you really believe that humans were created 6000 years ago?

While our ancestors have been around for about six million years, the modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilization as we know it is only about 6,000 years old, and industrialization started in the earnest only in the 1800s.Jan 19, 2015

How Long Have Humans Been On Earth? - Universe Today


To my knowledge, Jesus never said anything about Adam and Eve or anything about original sin. All that is Christian doctrine based upon the 'allegorical story' of Adam and Eve, which I believe was misinterpreted and misunderstand. Jesus might have died for our sins, but not for sins we inherited from Adam and Eve, at least not the way Christians believe our sins were inherited.

This is how I believe the descendants of Adam inherited the sins of Adam:

“For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 124-125


You can read the whole chapter on this link: 30: ADAM AND EVE

"For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin," is perfectly congruent with what Jesus said about attachment to our life in this world:

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
(Matthew 19:4-6) 4Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”

(Mark 10:6-9) 6 However, from the beginning of creation, ‘He made them male and female. 7For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother, 8 and the two will be one flesh,’ so that they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”

Read where?
(Genesis 1:27) And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.

(Genesis 2:23, 24) 23 Then the man said: “This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh. This one will be called Woman, Because from man she was taken.” 24That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

So you believe what scientists believe, therefore the Bible must be wrong, and the words attributed to Jesus, false?
So you don't really believe the Bible, do you?
You don't accept the words of the apostle Paul either, whose writtings are found in more than a dozen books, do you?

Most scholars agree that Paul actually wrote seven of the Pauline epistles, but that four of the epistles in Paul's name are pseudepigraphic (Ephesians, First Timothy, Second Timothy, and Titus) and that two other epistles are of questionable authorship (Second Thessalonians and Colossians). According to some scholars, Paul wrote these letters with the help of a secretary, or amanuensis, who would have influenced their style, if not their theological content.

(Romans 5:14) Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come.
(1 Corinthians 15:21, 22) 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.
(1 Corinthians 15:45) So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(1 Timothy 2:13, 14) 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor.
(Jude 14) Yes, the seventh one in line from Adam, Enoch, also prophesied . . .
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
With all due respect, how does Jesus knowing the meaning of love fix anything in this fallen world?
If having a Savior was going to fix the fallen world, it would have done so by now, as it has been over 2000 years since Jesus walked the earth.
Hellbound Serpiente said: Mother nature is dark and brutal. All the living are involved in killing of other living, either intentionally or unintentionally.
How does Jesus' love fix the darkness and brutality of mother nature?

If 'fixing the fallen world ' would have been done by now then we would Not be here.
We would Not have the opportunity to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
The passing of time has allowed for us to be born and prove Satan a liar.
Sinner Satan challenges ALL of us -> Job 2:4-5.
'Touch our flesh...' ( meaning loose physical health and we would Not serve God )
Both Job and Jesus under very adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we.

Please notice how Jesus will fix the ' brutality of mother nature ' according to Mark 6:51 and Mark 4:39
The words from Jesus' mouth will regulate weather phenomenon.
Just as the executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16
Then, Jesus will have earthly subjects, earthly citizens as mentioned at Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
.....................I believe we will see our loved ones in the next life, but whether we will see our animal companions is anyone's best guess.

In Scripture the Bible's hope is in the Resurrection Hope.- Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Resurrection Day meaning: Jesus' coming Millennium-Long day of governing over Earth in righteousness for a thousand years.
In Scripture, only human life was offered as everlasting life.
Thus, Resurrection is for mankind.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So you believe what scientists believe, therefore the Bible must be wrong, and the words attributed to Jesus, false?
So you don't really believe the Bible, do you?
Jesus did not write Genesis. Jesus never said that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman.

Like many people, including some Christians, I believe that Genesis is allegorical, not literal history.
I believe that God created man in His own image, but man was created through the process of evolution.
You don't accept the words of the apostle Paul either, whose writings are found in more than a dozen books, do you?
I do accept the words of the apostle Paul, I just interpret those words differently than you do.
You believe Jesus and Paul were talking about physical death; I believe they were talking about spiritual death.

Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

The views expressed in our content reflect individual perspectives and do not represent the official views of the Baha'i Faith.

[Editor’s Note: This is the tenth installment of a multi-part essay called “Questions from a Clergyman”. Click here to read from the beginning.]

In a series of “Cult Nights” a local church held to investigate the Baha’i Faith, Pastor Dan’s penultimate “Cult Night” question was about resurrection. He asked:

“Doesn’t the Bible teach a physical Resurrection?”

The Apostle Paul deals with this subject in I Corinthians 15. Theologians use this letter as the foundation of the doctrine that without physical resurrection of the human body, a Christian’s faith is in vain.

Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

Paul goes on to offer a description of what “resurrection” means. In I Corinthians I 15:35-55, he writes:

But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain… There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit….

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory. O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”

Here, Paul depicts resurrection as spiritual, not physical. He says plainly that the “body” resurrected is not the physical body that is “sown” and that a “natural body” is followed by a “spiritual body”. He makes it clear that this spiritual body is nothing like the physical one, and uses two metaphors to make this point: the difference between mature grain and bare seed, and the difference between a moon and a sun.

A moon, an inert rock that casts no radiance of its own, can only reflect what shines on it — an apt metaphor when applied to the human condition. A sun, made of a different substance altogether, sheds its own radiance. “So also is the resurrection of the dead,” Paul says. “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.”

Christ’s resurrection, of course, is the prototype of the resurrection of the human soul. His victory over death illustrates the potential of the believer: “But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.” (I Corinthians 15:23). It follows that if Christ’s resurrection is a spiritual one, then so must ours be. Paul makes this exact point when he compares and contrasts the “first Adam” (a “living being”) with “the last Adam” (Christ), whom he says is “a life-giving spirit.”

Further, Paul states emphatically that “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.” Here he quotes the words of Jesus to Nicodemus. Recall the context for these words originally: Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be reborn—not of flesh, but of the spirit. What, after all, is Christ’s message about real life? Is it the life of the body, or the life of the spirit?

I think this sheds a light on the “mystery” Paul speaks of in the verses above — that all shall not “sleep” (that is, die) but shall be changed. If the change stands for the spiritual transformation of rebirth, this makes perfect sense, since it is something that happens to those who are physically alive, but spiritually dead.

Clearly, Paul does not preach a physical resurrection for Jesus or for us, yet this spiritual resurrection is what he calls upon the believers to have faith in and concludes: “Death is swallowed up in victory. O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”

This seems consistent with what Christ tells us: “the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life. – John 6:63.

It also reflects the words of Baha’u’llah on the subject, which I shared with a group of Pastor Dan’s congregants:

The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. … The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation. – Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 157.

Would it surprise you to hear that my new Christian friends agreed that there was no conflict between what Paul and Baha’u’llah said? The soul remains indescribable — a spiritual essence, not a physical one.

Next time: The Baha’i Faith and the Church Councils: Baha’i and Church Doctrine

Read the previous article in the series: False Prophet?

Won’t the Dead Rise Again?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Jesus did not write Genesis. Jesus never said that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman.

Like many people, including some Christians, I believe that Genesis is allegorical, not literal history.
I believe that God created man in His own image, but man was created through the process of evolution.

I do accept the words of the apostle Paul, I just interpret those words differently than you do.
You believe Jesus and Paul were talking about physical death; I believe they were talking about spiritual death.

Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

The views expressed in our content reflect individual perspectives and do not represent the official views of the Baha'i Faith.

[Editor’s Note: This is the tenth installment of a multi-part essay called “Questions from a Clergyman”. Click here to read from the beginning.]

In a series of “Cult Nights” a local church held to investigate the Baha’i Faith, Pastor Dan’s penultimate “Cult Night” question was about resurrection. He asked:

“Doesn’t the Bible teach a physical Resurrection?”

The Apostle Paul deals with this subject in I Corinthians 15. Theologians use this letter as the foundation of the doctrine that without physical resurrection of the human body, a Christian’s faith is in vain.

Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

Paul goes on to offer a description of what “resurrection” means. In I Corinthians I 15:35-55, he writes:

But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain… There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit….

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory. O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”

Here, Paul depicts resurrection as spiritual, not physical. He says plainly that the “body” resurrected is not the physical body that is “sown” and that a “natural body” is followed by a “spiritual body”. He makes it clear that this spiritual body is nothing like the physical one, and uses two metaphors to make this point: the difference between mature grain and bare seed, and the difference between a moon and a sun.

A moon, an inert rock that casts no radiance of its own, can only reflect what shines on it — an apt metaphor when applied to the human condition. A sun, made of a different substance altogether, sheds its own radiance. “So also is the resurrection of the dead,” Paul says. “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.”

Christ’s resurrection, of course, is the prototype of the resurrection of the human soul. His victory over death illustrates the potential of the believer: “But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.” (I Corinthians 15:23). It follows that if Christ’s resurrection is a spiritual one, then so must ours be. Paul makes this exact point when he compares and contrasts the “first Adam” (a “living being”) with “the last Adam” (Christ), whom he says is “a life-giving spirit.”

Further, Paul states emphatically that “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.” Here he quotes the words of Jesus to Nicodemus. Recall the context for these words originally: Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be reborn—not of flesh, but of the spirit. What, after all, is Christ’s message about real life? Is it the life of the body, or the life of the spirit?

I think this sheds a light on the “mystery” Paul speaks of in the verses above — that all shall not “sleep” (that is, die) but shall be changed. If the change stands for the spiritual transformation of rebirth, this makes perfect sense, since it is something that happens to those who are physically alive, but spiritually dead.

Clearly, Paul does not preach a physical resurrection for Jesus or for us, yet this spiritual resurrection is what he calls upon the believers to have faith in and concludes: “Death is swallowed up in victory. O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”

This seems consistent with what Christ tells us: “the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life. – John 6:63.

It also reflects the words of Baha’u’llah on the subject, which I shared with a group of Pastor Dan’s congregants:

The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. … The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation. – Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 157.

Would it surprise you to hear that my new Christian friends agreed that there was no conflict between what Paul and Baha’u’llah said? The soul remains indescribable — a spiritual essence, not a physical one.

Next time: The Baha’i Faith and the Church Councils: Baha’i and Church Doctrine

Read the previous article in the series: False Prophet?

Won’t the Dead Rise Again?
What did Jesus mean...?
(Matthew 19:4-6) 4Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”

What did Paul mean?
1 Timothy 2:13 -  For Adam was formed first, then Eve
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In Scripture the Bible's hope is in the Resurrection Hope.- Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Resurrection Day meaning: Jesus' coming Millennium-Long day of governing over Earth in righteousness for a thousand years.
In Scripture, only human life was offered as everlasting life.
Thus, Resurrection is for mankind.
According to scripture, Jesus is not coming back to earth to rule unless the Bible is incorrect.
Why don't Christians ever respond to me when I point out these verses?

(John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

Resurrection is for mankind but it is not a resurrection of bodies from graves to live on earth.

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222


The full explanation with Bible verses cited is on this link The Great Resurrection

Everlasting life refers to a quality of life, a quality of life of one who is close to God.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God, and we can have eternal life both in this world and in the next world (the spiritual world/heaven). The soul is eternal, the body perishes. That is why Jesus said: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

All the verses below refer to spiritual life, not life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What did Jesus mean...?
(Matthew 19:4-6) 4Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”
God is the Creator so God is responsible for all existence, including man and woman, but these verses are about the marital union, and Jesus means that a man and woman that marry should remain married.
What did Paul mean?
1 Timothy 2:13 -  For Adam was formed first, then Eve
This must be read in context. These verses are about a woman being subjugated by a man, and Paul's justification is that Adam was formed first, then Eve.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
God is the Creator so God is responsible for all existence, including man and woman, but these verses are about the marital union, and Jesus means that a man and woman that marry should remain married.

This must be read in context. These verses are about a woman being subjugated by a man, and Paul's justification is that Adam was formed first, then Eve.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
What does create mean? Can you explain how God created Adam.
So Adam was formed first? Meaning what... that he was created first. Then Eve after?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What does create mean? Can you explain how God created Adam.
So Adam was formed first? Meaning what... that he was created first. Then Eve after?
Nobody knows how God created man and woman. I believe that God is responsible for the process of evolution and that humans evolved from animals but humans were always a distinct species from other animals because only humans have a soul. Animals have spirits but that is not the same as a soul. I think the following passage is describing the process of evolution:

“Let us return to our subject that man, in the beginning of his existence and in the womb of the earth, like the embryo in the womb of the mother, gradually grew and developed, and passed from one form to another, from one shape to another, until he appeared with this beauty and perfection, this force and this power. It is certain that in the beginning he had not this loveliness and grace and elegance, and that he only by degrees attained this shape, this form, this beauty and this grace. There is no doubt that the human embryo did not at once appear in this form; neither did it then become the manifestation of the words “Blessed, therefore, be God, the most excellent of Makers.” 1 Gradually it passed through various conditions and different shapes, until it attained this form and beauty, this perfection, grace and loveliness. Thus it is evident and confirmed that the development and growth of man on this earth, until he reached his present perfection, resembled the growth and development of the embryo in the womb of the mother: by degrees it passed from condition to condition, from form to form, from one shape to another, for this is according to the requirement of the universal system and Divine Law.” Some Answered Questions, p. 183

From: 47: THE UNIVERSE IS WITHOUT BEGINNING; THE ORIGIN OF MAN

Who said that God created Adam first?
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't know why you have hope, every ounce of hope has been beaten out of me by life. Things had always been hell for me, I don't think there's light at the end of the road for me. There's nothing except pain.
I am sorry to hear that you feel that way. I cannot say I know what it feels like because I am not you, and I have not had your experiences, but I can say that I have felt completely hopeless, many, many times. My life has been anything but a picnic but somehow I dug my way out of the big black hole although I still drop down into it from time to time, and I am still not on top of the mountain. I am rather standing in the side of the hole hoping that I do not fall down into it again. I live one day at a time, just hoping I do not fall down into the hole and that maybe I will eventually make my way to the plateau. Progress is very slow, almost undetectable, but I have many roadblocks in my way, things I cannot really change.
Like I always say --- Ignorance and arrogance usually breeds destruction. And these two diseases of heart and soul are common and rife among many people, ESPECIALLY religious people. People of this arrogant nature are inherently cruel and they are more of slaves of their inflated egos rather than slaves of their respective God. Their ignorance, arrogance, cruelty, apathy and other wiles are emerging from their egos, and ego is a falsifier, liar, deceiver, selfish and overall just evil. It is this ego of their that has made them believe all sorts of lies which caused so much destruction in the world [due to (pseudo)religions, false ideologies etc.] and they arrogantly stick with those lies even in presence of many opposing evidence because their egos just outright refuse to accept anything that goes against it.

It is this ego of their that has made them believe all sorts of lies which caused so much destruction in the world [due to (pseudo)religions, false ideologies etc.] and they arrogantly stick with those lies even in presence of many opposing evidence because their egos just outright refuse to accept anything that goes against it.
I agree that some religious people are prone to arrogance, but anyone can be prone to arrogance because it is a human quality some people have more than others. Regarding religious people, maybe their scriptures are right, but when they insist they absolutely know what they mean this is arrogant, and when they beat people over the head with those scriptures this is cruel and insensitive. The problem is that if they are so caught up in their beliefs they might not even realize they are doing this – they just believe, and that belief is more important than the feelings of another human being. It is their ego that will not allow them to consider that they could be wrong, even if their scriptures are right. That belief is everything to them, and when people cling that tenaciously to a belief I have to think they are insecure although they will call it steadfast, and maybe it is both.
Just like you pointed out, we don't know what God is doing, we don't know whether this is a test from God or anything else. What we do know for sure is somebody is suffering, that's the only thing that is certain. And alleviating their suffering to any extent is the right thing to do, constructive and beneficial to one who is suffering and also to the one who is achieving God's Pleasure through alleviating the pain of a fellow human being.
I fully agree that compassion and trying to alleviate the suffering of another human being should be the order of the day, rather than trying to explain the suffering with religious beliefs, but when people live only by their beliefs, those are what they will turn to first. I do not turn to these people or confide in them but sometimes our paths cross on a forum, and I get hurt by their comments. In that case it is best to ignore them, because clearly they do not understand suffering; perhaps that has not been their lot in life, and even if some suffering came their way, they would use their beliefs to prevent any suffering, kind of like a drug.
I am way past that point. Unfortunately, I've learned to handle and manage my pain by my self. Nothing is really helping me, except for my medications. And it's too late to help me now. When I needed help, I was given hell. You can't give life to a dead man.
Of course I cannot know what you are referring to and I am not one to pry. I just want you to know that I am here in case you want to talk. I am also one to try to deal with my pain by myself but sometimes I reach out for help, and at those times I find there are many kind people who want to help, and these are usually strangers, not family. I think God sends them my way.

I do not believe anyone is beyond help as long as they are alive, but emotions are more powerful than thoughts so I know life can feel hopeless. On one hand, I feel pretty hopeless about changing anything in my life right now, but I believe that God can and will guide me in the right direction, and what happens often involves other people who come into my life at the right time. I have seen it happen over and over again so I have some faith I am not alone.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Not to make light of your grief but you can always get new kittens. Members of our family have lost beloved pets. They always went out and adopted new ones. It's not like losing real children even though sometimes it feels like it. Try adopting a few kittens. There are so many that are destined to be destroyed because of overpopulation.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not to make light of your grief but you can always get new kittens. Members of our family have lost beloved pets. They always went out and adopted new ones. It's not like losing real children even though sometimes it feels like it. Try adopting a few kittens. There are so many that are destined to be destroyed because of overpopulation.
We lost five older cats this year and I bought three new cats that were two years old. So we are down by two cats but I am okay with that because the younger cats take a lot more watching since they are more active.

Love is love. Why the double standard? If someone lost a child, I could just as easily tell them they could get pregnant and have another child or they could adopt a child. There are many children who need a home so there is never any shortage of children to adopt. There are many children destined to be destroyed where they are presently living if they do not get a good home.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Hebrews 2:14
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of deaththat is, the devil— emphasis mine.
Exactly. At John 8:44, Jesus called the Devil a “man slayer when he began” — that is, when he “began” his chosen path as a slanderer & rebel. He “did not stand fast in the Truth” — he left it.

Take care, cousin.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
That said, I know where I am going after I die and that it is a lot better than this world, but I would never impose that belief upon anyone, although I will share it if people are interested, because this is a religious forum. But I would never say it does not “matter” if someone dies, because every life matters, whether it is a human or an animal.
it's been awhile since the op

and I did not read the entire thread

but can you summarize any changes.....
are you different now?
 
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