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Why does god need to test us?
- Thread starter SigurdReginson
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Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Very welcomeI see. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
In the Baha'i Faith the goal of tests is to help people grow spiritually. Tests are supposed to be considered a gift from God, but I have a hard time accepting that given how many years I have had tests in life.
The following talk given by Abdu'l-Baha is about tests.
THE BENEFITS OF GOD TO MAN
4 Avenue de Camöens,
October 27th
"God alone ordereth all things and is all-powerful. Why then does He send trials to His servants?
The trials of man are of two kinds. (a) The consequences of his own actions. If a man eats too much, he ruins his digestion; if he takes poison he becomes ill or dies. If a person gambles he will lose his money; if he drinks too much he will lose his equilibrium. All these sufferings are caused by the man himself, it is quite clear therefore that certain sorrows are the result of our own deeds. (b) Other sufferings there are, which come upon the Faithful of God. Consider the great sorrows endured by Christ and by His apostles!
Those who suffer most, attain to the greatest perfection.
Those who declare a wish to suffer much for Christ’s sake must prove their sincerity; those who proclaim their longing to make great sacrifices can only prove their truth by their deeds. Job proved the fidelity of his love for God by being faithful through his great adversity, as well as during the prosperity of his life. The apostles of Christ who steadfastly bore all their trials and sufferings—did they not prove their faithfulness? Was not their endurance the best proof?
These griefs are now ended.
Caiaphas lived a comfortable and happy life while Peter’s life was full of sorrow and trial; which of these two is the more enviable? Assuredly we should choose the present state of Peter, for he possesses immortal life whilst Caiaphas has won eternal shame. The trials of Peter tested his fidelity. Tests are benefits from God, for which we should thank Him. Grief and sorrow do not come to us by chance, they are sent to us by the Divine Mercy for our own perfecting.
While a man is happy he may forget his God; but when grief comes and sorrows overwhelm him, then will he remember his Father who is in Heaven, and who is able to deliver him from his humiliations.
Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.
The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.
The prayer of the prophets of God has always been, and still is: Oh God, I long to lay down my life in the path to Thee! I desire to shed my blood for Thee, and to make the supreme sacrifice.
Paris Talks, pp. 49-51
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We only have to go to the book of Job to answer those questions....
Job's story tells us a lot about who is responsible for our woes, and why God does not step in to prevent them.
Job was singled out as the most faithful man on earth at that time....and he had come to satan's attention. God's question to satan indicates that the devil was already considering Job's faith, maybe with the intention to try to undermine it. (Job ch 1)
So certain accusations were made as to Job's motives for his faithful service to God. As this was in Patriarchal times, Job led his whole family in worship to their God, but satan wanted to test this materially prosperous man, to see if it was the blessings he received for his efforts that kept his faith so strong. So he asked God to take away everything he valued and see if Job would turn on God and actually curse him to his face?
God said that the devil could take away all his belongings but he could not touch the man himself.....so he started with his 10 children. In one horrific incident, all 10 were killed as the roof collapsed on the building they were in as part of a regular family gathering.....and as if that was not bad enough, all of his valuable livestock was stolen...one awful piece of bad news after another, knocked Job to his knees but he did not assign any blame to God.
So the devil tried again.....God said that...."There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad. He is still holding firmly to his integrity, even though you try to incite me against him to destroy him for no reason.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”
So now we get to the nitty-gritty.....satan made the accusation that "a man" (not just Job) would give everything he had to save his life....and again satan was given permission to afflict Job, but he was not allowed to take his life.
All that followed would have broken any other man, but not Job.....and God knew it. (1 Corinthians 10:13)
Job represents every one of us who profess faith in God. Are we only serving God because of what we get out of it....the reward perhaps? Will we curse God if the going gets tough and leave him? Apparently many have done so, because of not knowing where the test or trial was coming from......or why.
James 1:13-15....
"When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death."
So if all of us receive the same kinds of trials that Job endured, (though perhaps not as intensely as Job did) it will only be permitted according to what God knows we can bear. (Hence, more trials for some than others and always with some relief in sight)
Endurance of those trials will put us in good stead for the final test, which I believe is yet to come. (Matthew 24:21-22)
Why does god want to put us through those trials in the first place, though? What is the end goal?
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Why does god need to test us?
I never heard God confirm that He (or She or...) is needy, have you?
People might claim such things, pretending they know what God thinks, feels, wants etc.
I'm fine if they believe this. If God tells me personally then I start thinking about such questions.
I never heard God confirm that He (or She or...) is needy, have you?
People might claim such things, pretending they know what God thinks, feels, wants etc.
I'm fine if they believe this. If God tells me personally then I start thinking about such questions.
Good question, and I'm interested in the responses from folks who do hold that world view, since I don't.
Because religion is, among other things, an attempt to assign meaning.
We experience hardships and suffering, so religions have to rationalize (or at least attempt to rationalize) suffering. This means whatever god the religion comes up with has to have a purpose for suffering.
If God tests us, I believe it is for us a lesson, for that we would learn something.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
My first question concerning your ServSafe Certification being a test from God is "Where is God"?Maybe one example of a pointless test that's mandatory is one of my certifications. As a dietitian tech, one of the certifications I need to pass is a Servsafe manager's certification.
This certification tells me everything I need to know about cooking food, making sure stock is stored properly, and what signs of foodborne illness looks like. The thing tells me how to tell people how to wash their hands...
When I do my job, I'm helping people to choose food that they can eat. No potassium for renal patients. No heavy fats or salts for cardiac patients. Salty liquids for patients with free water diets.... I don't cook food, I don't store food, and I don't tell people who prepare food how to wash their hands.
I have literally not used one thing from that certification since I started my job. That said, many of our dietitian techs have lost their jobs because they couldn't pass that useless certification in the time given.
I suppose that could be a possibility. It could also be out of his control. My Servsafe certification is mandatory because I deal with food, but the only reason I have to take it is because my managers have to make me take it... It's interesting to think that someone could be making god test me in life, but I don't think many theologies allow for a boss over god.
The certification is man made.
the certification being mandatory is also man made.
So I do not understand how it is "God testing you".
Please keep in mind that I am not a theist.
And perhaps that is causing a blockage (for lack of a better word) in my understanding.
IF it is God testing you with the ServSafe Certification, I would suspect that the experience of going through the certification process has taught you something that you will use later.
Did you make new friends during the certification?
Did you have an epiphany, of any sort about anything, during the process that you would not have had if it were not for the process?
It seems to me that you are limiting your search.
LIke with teamwork being something learned by baseball...
Most of the things you experience carry over into other parts of your life.
Some will say (and I do not know enough to give an honest opinion either way) that every single experience you have will in some way shape who you are and who you will become.
Most of them without you even realizing it.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
So then he is not all knowing, right?
For any "test" god gives to us for HIS own benefit would mean He does not know the outcome, right?
For if He knew the outcome before hand, He would not need to test us for His benefit.
So to be consistent with His being all knowing, any test would not be for His benefit, but for ours, right?
Hmmm... Life is full of adversity and pain. Some of this pain is rather pointless. What kind of lesson is god trying to teach me if I accidentally stub my toe? Why did god create a universe where minor (or major, depending on how hard I stub it) and meaningless pain not only exists, but is an unavoidable and assured thing at some point.
I have bruises on my shins that I have no idea how they got there, but I know I must have bumped into something. Whatever it was, I must not felt that it was important enough to remember.
Also, why would god choose pain and discomfort as teaching mechanisms at all? There are other ways of learning things, and the thing in life learned without pain seem to be just as viable as thing learned with pain (such as in observing the actions of others, or learning from a text book).
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
The end goal is that God offers us the greatest gift you can imagine. The chance for our spirit to live forever as part of God's family. But God does not give this gift to everyone. He gives it to those who are able to withstand the problems and difficulties of this life. And of course the first step is to believe in God. Then you are on the way to the final goal.
I guess for me the comparison comes from the way in which god is an authority figure over me much like my boss is. They both have tests that I need to pass that, to me, seem pointless.
Before I can pass my test and get certified from my boss, I have to stuff my brain with common sense information that requires precise memorization of temperatures, food organization, and what each department of governmental food regulation does. Not only that, but I had to learn the managerial version of that, so I could repeat that information back to others.
God, from what I gather from many, gives us challenges and hardships in life so that we can pass his test. But... what's the point if I never experience pain or suffering in the afterlife anyways?
Just like with my certification... What was the point if getting it if the job I got after taking it doesn't even deal with the stuff that I was trained to handle? I'm not a cook, I don't work in the warehouse, and I don't handle the food. I'm a member of the patient care team who works up in the patient floors along side the nurses and doctors and I take care of patients.
What was the point? Also, what is the real point of the trials in life set by god? In heaven, those trials won't really teach me lessons I can utilize, it seems...
Well, folks say that the hardships in life are god testing us... I don't see it either. If god pulls the strings, though, then the things we face are intentionally made that way because he willed it so. These tests may not be man made, but they are god made; and they are being made mandatory by god.
I guess not all theists believe that god is testing us via the tribulations of life, but many do.
I don't see it, but I suppose it's possible.
Nope! I sat in my room and stuffed my brain with this information until test day. If anything, I lost a few co workers who didn't pass the test.
Nope. The only epiphany I've had is in regards to how meaningless the certification was in regards to what I was actually doing, I suppose.
I would agree with that... Maybe pain teaches us lessons that the absence of pain couldn't... But to what ends? To be a better person? Ok. Why do I need to be a better person in heaven having known the trials of pain? There are other ways to teach someone to be a better person.
If I were born in heaven having never known hardship, I could be taught to learn the lessons of life in heaven and still become a good person in the process... Sure, I'd be ignorant to the concept of suffering, but suffering would never be something I'd have to see in the first place, so why was the lesson ever needed initially?
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McBell
Resident Sourpuss
How does one learn empathy if one has never had hardship?
How can you relate to something (pain, hardship, loss, confusion, etc.) if you have no basis for comparison?
Of course, the same is true for the "good" things as well, (love, happiness, etc.)
If everything is always good, how do you know it is good if you never experience anything bad?
Seems to me that some things you believe about God is not lining up with your life experiences.
Thus your confusion.
So perhaps it is your expectations of God that needs to be looked at?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The only reason I can figure right now is that literalists are attached to their religion. It comes to mind that Jesus said we must love God above all. With our whole being. (Mind, heart and soul) Another reason (and it's a hard pill for some) is the following: (John 3:16) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." And then of course, we remember the Flood. Only 8 persons were saved. God decides. It's not like I can pray someone out of the imagined hellfire or limbo.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Empathy is not necessarily a given quality. Sometimes it takes experience and hardship to have and show empathy, so I agree.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
Everything that He has.
Because we are the literal children of God - we can become just like Him one day - if that is what we desire.
The same choices that God makes and the same hardships He needs to deal with.
I mean - I don't know exactly what it means to become like God - because I don't know everything about Him and what He does - but I'm sure there's plenty involved.
I don't personally like referring to it as the "afterlife" because I believe that we lived before this life and physical death is just a transition.
Both of us.
Up until we entered mortality - we always knew there was a God because we lived with Him and He taught us everything there was to know to become like Him.
However - neither us or Him - knew that we would use this knowledge appropriately or if we even wanted to become like Him.
Ever heard the phrase, "Your true character is measured by what you do when no one is looking"?
This is why we passed through a veil of forgetfulness when we came into mortality - because this test is not one of "knowledge" - but of character.
He wants to see what we decide to do without knowing He is looking over our shoulder - to see where we will go and what we will do in eternity.
This life is really the only time in our eternal existence where we are completely free from knowing the truth - which is why it is referred to as our "probationary state".
So we get to know who and what we really are. Not just automatons doing what our Father wants.
And He not only gets to see us use what He has given us - but He also gets to see who we really are blossom forth - not just a reflection of what He taught us - but the real us.
Honestly - we are His children and He loves us - all of us and we are all edified by this experience.
It is impossible for us to mess things up anywhere but here in this life - because He rules and we will remember it when we return there.
However - rather than just having God give us things or positions of authority - without us ever knowing if we really want them or if we truly deserve them - we will have this experience in mortality that will confirm to us who we really are and what we really want.
So - even though this test edifies us all - I believe it is mostly for our benefit. It helps us discern what we want - because not everyone is going to want to be like our Father.
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McBell
Resident Sourpuss
I never did understand those who believe god is never changing who then pray to ask god to change his mind....
But that is a thought most likely for a different thread.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
Correct - the test is mostly for our benefit - but He enjoys us coming to know who we really are and showing Him.
So - we all benefit. We are all edified.