JWs & The Bible

Brian2 · May 11, 2021

nPeace said:
If you have scripture that shows that anyone prior to the day of Pentecost 33 CE, were sealed by the holy spirit to be joint heirs with Christ Jesus, then please, let's see them.
Also, if you have scripture that says persons prior to Jesus were baptized in the name of Jesus - a requirement for having access to heavenly life, then please show those scriptures.
(John 3:5) Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

(1 John 5:1) . . .Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one.
So based on your argument here, everyone - not just Christian, because the verse did not say Christian. Where did you read Christian? Everyone - Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, Satanist.... all they have to do is believe that Jesus is the Christ, and they are born from God... Is that right. That's what you believe?

Here's what the scriptures say.
(John 3:3) In response Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
(1 Peter 1:3) Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(1 Peter 1:23) For you have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible seed, through the word of the living and enduring God.
(1 John 3:9) Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God.

I do not have scriptures that show that people before Jesus were sealed by the Holy Spirit,,,,,,,,,,,but that does not mean that it won't happen at the judgement or even when people were judged after dying.
Heb 12:21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” 22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels 23in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,…

Not only does it show that we have spirits but it shows that the righteous (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc etc) have been made perfect. You don't become perfect by trying harder. You need to be born again and in the end you need a body that you can control with your perfected spirit, an immortal and incorruptible body,,,,,,,,a spiritual body, one that we can control by our spirit and does not control us and our actions.
John 3:3, 1Peter 1:3, 1Peter 1:23, 1John 3:9 are all scriptures where you rely on believing that they are not about Christians, just about the 144000. It is a faith in the GB and it's interpretation and not in what the Bible tells us.
1John 5:1 of course does not apply to people of any religion, it applies to those who believe Jesus is the Christ and all that implies no doubt. They, all Christians, are in the Kingdom.

nPeace said:
Read your Bible Brian, but don't just read it. Ask for understanding, and listen to what the spirit has to say. Accept the guidance God gives through the faithful and discrete slave whom Jesus appointed. Do so humbly, and with an honest heart, and you would believe different to what you believe at present.

That's the point. Unless I believe the GB of the JWs I would not come to those conclusions. From what I see in the scriptures you give there is no direct link that shows that there are only 144,000 literally who are heirs according to the promise.
Why does the number 144,000 have to be literal? I was told by Cataway that the Book of Revelations is a symbolic book and so the New Jerusalem is not coming down from heaven as a city. This directly contradicts the scriptures. The kings of the nations are going to bring the glory of the nations to the city, New Jerusalem.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory. 25 Its gates will never be shut at the end of the day, because there will be no night there.…

The Heavenly Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and God and the Lamb will be in it and so the 144000 will be there and we know that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be there. (Luke 13:28)
Heb 11:11 By faith Sarah, even though she was barren and beyond the proper age, was enabled to conceive a child, because she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12And so from one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.…
Abraham's seed who did not see the promise were as numerous as the stars in the sky and they were waiting for a new country, a heavenly one. It is a heavenly city because it comes from heaven. Enrolled in the heavens means there is a book in heaven that has names in it. A heavenly Kingdom means it is a Kingdom belonging to and set up by heaven. A heavenly calling means that we are called by heaven.

Brian2 · May 11, 2021

nPeace said:
Explanation : The Government is set up by God in heaven. Its king - appointed by God - is Christ Jesus, who has selected 144,000 from the earth, to rule with him. They rule the earth, with God's purpose in view, as promised to Abraham - the Abrahamic covenant.

Scriptures :
Set up by the God of heaven - Daniel 2:44.

Set up in heaven - 2 Timothy 4:18 (his heavenly Kingdom) ; Revelation 20:4 (I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge) ; Luke 22:30 (that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge ) ; Revelation 3:21 (To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne (@KenS this is the scripture I was looking for, where Jesus sits on his father's throne)) ; Matthew 19:28 (when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones) ; Luke 13:29 (people will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God) ; John 17:24 (Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me) ; 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (we the living ...will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord) ; John 14:3 (...I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be) ; Revelation 14:1 (. . .I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 . . .) ; Hebrews 12:22 (...you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels...) ; Psalm 2:6 (...“I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.”) ; 2 Corinthians 5:1 - (...we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens)

Judah became part of the Kingdom of Babylon. Nobody from Judah was ruling. But yes those in the Kingdom of God will be ruling over the earth and if you want the usual translation of Rev 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
I don't see how the scriptures you give relate to only the 144000 except for Rev 14:1, but even that could be a symbolic number for the perfect number of Christians (12 squared by 1000) why not. Or it could be a special group who go with Jesus wherever He goes, but I see nothing that tells us that the 144000 rule over other Christians who are not in the Kingdom. Interesting GB theory but as I have said, it ends up contradicting other scriptures and changes the gospel message, which is for everyone. All Christians have been bought from the earth. That is where we are and that is where God has bought us from to be His with the life of Jesus. We belong to God and so we belong to Jesus. (all that the Father has is mine-John 16:15)

nPeace said:
There is a select few - Luke 12:32; Revelation 14:1, chosen to rule as kings with Christ the king and also serve as priests - Revelation 5:9, 10 (...with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth) ; Daniel 7:27 (...the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them) ; Luke 22:28-30 (...you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel) ; Revelation 1:6 (...he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father) ; Revelation 14:1, 4 (. . .I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000. . .These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb) ;

I am quite perplexed, as to why you want to take it upon yourself to decide whom God should allow, or choose to be joint heirs with Christ.
God told Abraham directly, the words at Genesis 22:18.
Did God say to Abraham, "You are the seed, Abraham." Did he? Then Abraham cannot be the seed, or offspring. God chose the seed, not Brian.
So take note...

I don't choose the seed but a couple of posts back I showed that you should be reading Gal 3 to the end. We all belong to Christ unless you want to believe the GB that the scriptures are not for Christians but only for a special group. We have all been bought from the earth but the ransom price, the life of Jesus.
It is the GB who is telling you that certain scriptures do not apply to you but only the 144000. It is a lie.

nPeace said:
Jesus made that covenant after Judas left. He sealed it on the day of Pentecost 33 CE.
(2 Corinthians 1:22) . . .He has also put his seal on us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts. 2 Corinthians 5:5 ; Ephesians 1:13, 14

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Why could that not be about all Christians. We are the ones who first believed and are the first fruits. Others of the nations who never heard or never believed but believe later will not be the firstfruits and imo that is whom the rule will be over.
IMO also the number of 144000 was probably reached in the first century anyway.

2Cor 5:5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
That sealing has been going on from that point forward.

Surely that scripture is about our new body.

nPeace said:
A time will come when the final sealing takes place.
(Revelation 7:2-4) 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

And even though the numbers exceed 144000, most of whom were not the "first to believe" (Eph 1:12) and so not firstfruits in that respect, the number of Christians does increase. IMO the 144000 is the symbolic number for all Christians and to say otherwise like the GB does and to say that only they are born again and in the Body of Christ and in the Church and go to heaven and see Jesus etc etc just shows that your trust is in a group of men and not in the scriptures which were written for all Christians.
If you can find scriptures that tell me otherwise and show that it is more than an idea from a group of men then do so. Maybe you think you have, but you in reality are just reading JW doctrine into scriptures that do not show that what you say unless you put your trust in the GB and hear their words as if they were scripture.

nPeace · May 11, 2021

Brian2 said:
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are all in the Kingdom according to Luke 13:28. That would apply to all Christians also, since all have been born of God. All those ransomed by the life death Jesus have been bought by that blood and so belong to Jesus.

Luke 13:23-30
23 Now a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able. 25 When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.’ 27 But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’ 28 There is where your weeping and the gnashing of your teeth will be, when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown outside. 29 Furthermore, people will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God. 30 And look! there are those last who will be first, and there are those first who will be last.”

Yes, and there is a narrow door... and it's locked, which people will be banging on crying out, "Sir. Open to us." The door won't be opened to them, but they will be told, "Get away from here, you lawless workers. I don't know who you are." After much appealing they will look and see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and they will gnash their teeth in anguish.

Tell me Brian... How did they see Abraham, Was there also a window, and did they peep through it and see him?
Am I mocking you.... Well actually I am Brian.

The way you read the Bible, should you keep it up, based on the scriptures, you will be one banging on the door, and saying, "Lord, open to us. Remember how I ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets."

There is where the weeping and gnashing of teeth will be.

Does that look like an appealing picture?
I don't want that for you Brian, but it's your choice. We get to choose how our life will turn out - if we will be approved or not.

I really would like this for you.
Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. (Matthew 25:34)

However... does that not require you listen to the faithful and discrete slave, and support Christ's brothers here on earth... Would you rather choose to complain against them?

(Matthew 25:41-46) 41 “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but you gave me nothing to eat; and I was thirsty, but you gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but you did not receive me hospitably; naked, but you did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but you did not look after me.’ 44 Then they too will answer with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

Do you imagine that when Jesus said these words, they do not apply in your case? Matthew 13:10-16
Understanding Jesus teachings are not done so by just picking up the Bible and reading. We must study it. It helps more when we get help from God's earthly organization - the congregation of God.
No. Based on the Bible, that is not the multitude of various "Christian" religions.

So when you read scriptures like Luke 16:18-17, don't just jump and say, "Aha!"
Ask yourself some questions...
When did Abraham go to heaven?
Could Abraham go to heaven before Jesus died, and opened the way to heaven by his death?
How could Abraham go to heaven... Was he born again - baptized in water, and holy spirit?

You see, when I post a response to you, with questions, you avoid them. You stay away for a long time, and when you return, you skip them. Like this one You completely ignored the questions in there.
So tell me Brian. When did Abraham go to heaven? Where in scripture does it say Abraham was born of water and spirit? When was he baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and baptized into his death, and annointed by holy spirit, as an adopted son of God?

These are just some of many questions you apparently don't want to consider.
Did you tell me what God's kingdom is?

nPeace · May 11, 2021

Brian2 said:
Of course they are the offspring of Abraham biologically and because of their faith. Jesus is the promised seed but all of faith are also the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. Those in the OT times with faith also benefit from the promise to Abraham and benefit from the work of the one seed.

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What you said there is nowhere in the Bible.
Who are the offspring of Abraham biologically, and where exactly in any of the scriptures you quoted, did it say that?
Where exactly in any of the verses you quoted, does it say "all of faith are also the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise."?
Point out the exact verse please.

I end here, until I get this and my previous post answered.
These things need to be cleared.

cataway · May 11, 2021

Brian2 said:
I do not have scriptures that show that people before Jesus were sealed by the Holy Spirit,,,,,,,,,,,but that does not mean that it won't happen at the judgement or even when people were judged after dying.
Heb 12:21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” 22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels 23in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,…

Not only does it show that we have spirits but it shows that the righteous (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc etc) have been made perfect. You don't become perfect by trying harder. You need to be born again and in the end you need a body that you can control with your perfected spirit, an immortal and incorruptible body,,,,,,,,a spiritual body, one that we can control by our spirit and does not control us and our actions.
John 3:3, 1Peter 1:3, 1Peter 1:23, 1John 3:9 are all scriptures where you rely on believing that they are not about Christians, just about the 144000. It is a faith in the GB and it's interpretation and not in what the Bible tells us.
1John 5:1 of course does not apply to people of any religion, it applies to those who believe Jesus is the Christ and all that implies no doubt. They, all Christians, are in the Kingdom.

That's the point. Unless I believe the GB of the JWs I would not come to those conclusions. From what I see in the scriptures you give there is no direct link that shows that there are only 144,000 literally who are heirs according to the promise.
Why does the number 144,000 have to be literal? I was told by Cataway that the Book of Revelations is a symbolic book and so the New Jerusalem is not coming down from heaven as a city. This directly contradicts the scriptures. The kings of the nations are going to bring the glory of the nations to the city, New Jerusalem.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory. 25 Its gates will never be shut at the end of the day, because there will be no night there.…

The Heavenly Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and God and the Lamb will be in it and so the 144000 will be there and we know that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be there. (Luke 13:28)
Heb 11:11 By faith Sarah, even though she was barren and beyond the proper age, was enabled to conceive a child, because she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12And so from one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.…
Abraham's seed who did not see the promise were as numerous as the stars in the sky and they were waiting for a new country, a heavenly one. It is a heavenly city because it comes from heaven. Enrolled in the heavens means there is a book in heaven that has names in it. A heavenly Kingdom means it is a Kingdom belonging to and set up by heaven. A heavenly calling means that we are called by heaven.

you want to go to heaven ,what will you be doing there?

Brian2 · May 12, 2021

cataway said:
you want to go to heaven ,what will you be doing there?

I did not say I want to go to heaven. Heavenly Jerusalem is coming down to earth and God and the Lamb will dwell here with their people. (But of course they will be everywhere else also)

nPeace · May 15, 2021

Brian2 said:
I do not have scriptures that show that people before Jesus were sealed by the Holy Spirit,,,,,,,,,,,but that does not mean that it won't happen at the judgement or even when people were judged after dying.

So you do not have scripture, but you are speculating about what you want to believe?
So why have you been objecting all this time Brian?
Haven't I repeatedly reminded you we are discussing scripture.
By your own admission, you object to them based on - not scripture, but your beliefs.
All this time.

Brian2 said:
Heb 12:21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” 22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels 23in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,…

Not only does it show that we have spirits but it shows that the righteous (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc etc) have been made perfect. You don't become perfect by trying harder. You need to be born again and in the end you need a body that you can control with your perfected spirit, an immortal and incorruptible body,,,,,,,,a spiritual body, one that we can control by our spirit and does not control us and our actions.
John 3:3, 1Peter 1:3, 1Peter 1:23, 1John 3:9 are all scriptures where you rely on believing that they are not about Christians, just about the 144000. It is a faith in the GB and it's interpretation and not in what the Bible tells us.
1John 5:1 of course does not apply to people of any religion, it applies to those who believe Jesus is the Christ and all that implies no doubt. They, all Christians, are in the Kingdom.

You have disqualified everything you say here by admitting that you have no scriptural argument for anyone prior to Jesus being considered joint heirs with Christ in the heavenly kingdom - the 144,000 on heavenly Mount Zion.

Also, your arguments based on your belief does not make the 144,000 what you want them to be. The Bible says there are 144,000 on Mount Zion, sealed.
The great crowd are a separate group. The lamb shepherds them to waters of life.
(Revelation 7:15-17) 15 . . .the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
This is the same language used in Revelation 21:1-4
(Revelation 21:2-4) 2 I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

The scriptural facts are these Brian.

Those given the kingdom are a little flock - Luke 12:32

The Bible gives the number of those sealed in the heavenly kingdom, as 144,000 - Revelation 7:1-8 ; Revelation 14:1-5

Whether you believe that number is symbolic or not, is irrelevant, for a number of reasons.

(a) You have no scriptural basis.
(b) You cannot show one single scripture for anyone prior to Jesus being baptized by water and spirit - a requirement for those who would enter the kingdom of the heavens.
(c) Many many righteous ones therefore, have not received the heavenly calling, prior to Jesus.

God does the choosing and sealing, which started from eleven of Jesus' followers, who stuck with him in his trials. - 2 Corinthians 1:22 ; 2 Corinthians 5:5 ; Ephesians 1:13, 14 ; Luke 22:28-30 ; John 14:2, 3

Many many righteous ones will make up the great multitude who are not sealed to receive the kingdom. - Revelation 7:9-17

Who make up the righteous new earth? Not the 144,000 sealed as kingdom heirs. All other righteous ones will... including those resurrected ones who are found written in the book of life.

Brian2 said:
That's the point. Unless I believe the GB of the JWs I would not come to those conclusions.

No. That is not the point. Nor is it the truth.
Unless you are guided by the GB, in grasping what the Bible teaches, you will continue to believe things you cannot support scripturally, which you just moments ago demonstrated.

Brian2 said:
From what I see in the scriptures you give there is no direct link that shows that there are only 144,000 literally who are heirs according to the promise.

I addressed that twice already.

nPeace · May 15, 2021

Brian2 said:
Why does the number 144,000 have to be literal? I was told by Cataway that the Book of Revelations is a symbolic book and so the New Jerusalem is not coming down from heaven as a city. This directly contradicts the scriptures. The kings of the nations are going to bring the glory of the nations to the city, New Jerusalem.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory. 25 Its gates will never be shut at the end of the day, because there will be no night there.…

Seriously.
Have you really read or studied the Bible, or do you just try to look for scriptures to support your beliefs.
(Revelation 1:1) A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,

Revelation is presented in signs.
I discussed this with you before.
Take Revelation 14 - the lamb on Mount Zion with 144,000, having his name, and the name of the father, written on their forehead, taken from the earth as firstfruits from among mankind, and they did not defile themselves with women, but kept following the lamb wherever he went. Etc.
Is every single word and expression symbolic? No.
You can choose to stay in the dark and rely on your beliefs, or you can come to the light and be guided in understanding.
It's up to you.

The size of New Jerusalem exceeds the size of earth. Taken literally, it would not fit on earth.
What is New Jerusalem?

Brian2 said:
The Heavenly Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and God and the Lamb will be in it and so the 144000 will be there and we know that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be there. (Luke 13:28)
Heb 11:11 By faith Sarah, even though she was barren and beyond the proper age, was enabled to conceive a child, because she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12And so from one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.…
Abraham's seed who did not see the promise were as numerous as the stars in the sky and they were waiting for a new country, a heavenly one. It is a heavenly city because it comes from heaven. Enrolled in the heavens means there is a book in heaven that has names in it. A heavenly Kingdom means it is a Kingdom belonging to and set up by heaven. A heavenly calling means that we are called by heaven.

First. Heavenly Jerusalem and New Jerusalem are not the same thing. Heavenly Jerusalem does not come down out of heaven.
Second. There is not a single scripture in the Bible that says "God and the Lamb will be in it and so the 144000 will be there", and the claim that "we know that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be there" has no scriptural backing, at all.
As they say, that has been thoroughly debunked, and you admitted you can't support that belief scripturally.

Abraham's seed is Christ, and the heirs to the kingdom - the 144,000 holy ones.
Yes, Abraham and those who were faithful before the seed arrived, all looked forward to a better place - the one belonging to heaven, and that is exactly where they will dwell. God is pleased to give them a city... on the earth.
(Daniel 7:27)  “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’

These cities belong to the holy ones of the supreme one - the 144,000.
Abraham - God's friend - was not chosen as one of these. God did not give him that seal as a token of an inheritance as an annointed son of God, but along with the whole earth he will obtain a blessing for himself... and he will be happy living as a 'prince' in the earth.
(Hebrews 2:5) For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking. . .
(Isaiah 32:1) Look! A king will reign for righteousness, And princes will rule for justice.

nPeace · May 15, 2021

Brian2 said:
Judah became part of the Kingdom of Babylon. Nobody from Judah was ruling. But yes those in the Kingdom of God will be ruling over the earth and if you want the usual translation of Rev 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
I don't see how the scriptures you give relate to only the 144000 except for Rev 14:1, but even that could be a symbolic number for the perfect number of Christians (12 squared by 1000) why not. Or it could be a special group who go with Jesus wherever He goes, but I see nothing that tells us that the 144000 rule over other Christians who are not in the Kingdom. Interesting GB theory but as I have said, it ends up contradicting other scriptures and changes the gospel message, which is for everyone. All Christians have been bought from the earth. That is where we are and that is where God has bought us from to be His with the life of Jesus. We belong to God and so we belong to Jesus. (all that the Father has is mine-John 16:15)

No scripture says all Christians have been brought from the earth, and Revelation 7 is another scripture that mentions the144,000 separate from an unnumbered group.

Brian2 said:
I don't choose the seed but a couple of posts back I showed that you should be reading Gal 3 to the end. We all belong to Christ unless you want to believe the GB that the scriptures are not for Christians but only for a special group. We have all been bought from the earth but the ransom price, the life of Jesus.
It is the GB who is telling you that certain scriptures do not apply to you but only the 144000. It is a lie.

No scripture says we all belong to Christ. You speak as though you were there. You weren't, and Paul was not speaking to you. Where did you get that idea from?

Brian2 said:
Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Why could that not be about all Christians. We are the ones who first believed and are the first fruits. Others of the nations who never heard or never believed but believe later will not be the firstfruits and imo that is whom the rule will be over.
IMO also the number of 144000 was probably reached in the first century anyway.

Again. You were not there. Paul never said a word to you. So I don't know where this "we" buisness is coming from... other than another one of you unscripturally supported beliefs.
Probably? More speculating. Are you here to discuss scripture, or your beliefs?

Brian2 said:
2Cor 5:5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
That sealing has been going on from that point forward.

From what point forward?

Brian2 said:
Surely that scripture is about our new body.

Our?

Oh boy.

Brian2 said:
And even though the numbers exceed 144000, most of whom were not the "first to believe" (Eph 1:12) and so not firstfruits in that respect, the number of Christians does increase. IMO the 144000 is the symbolic number for all Christians and to say otherwise like the GB does and to say that only they are born again and in the Body of Christ and in the Church and go to heaven and see Jesus etc etc just shows that your trust is in a group of men and not in the scriptures which were written for all Christians.
If you can find scriptures that tell me otherwise and show that it is more than an idea from a group of men then do so. Maybe you think you have, but you in reality are just reading JW doctrine into scriptures that do not show that what you say unless you put your trust in the GB and hear their words as if they were scripture.

Your opinion and your beliefs are irrelevant, as the scriptures are final. See my previous post on this.

Brian2 · May 16, 2021

nPeace said:
Please reference the WT that says NO.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201104/Is-God-Omnipresent/
It seems to be saying that God's holy spirit is everywhere but not God. So then the official reason that the WT denies the scripture is because it has a doctrine which says that scripture is wrong. The doctrine is that the holy spirit is not God. But even their translation says that the Jehovah is the Spirit.
2Cor 3:17 Now Jehovah is the Spirit, and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.
So because of their doctrine they deny such passages Acts 17:28 and 1Kings 8:27. Interestingly they mention parts of 1Kings 8 but not that verse.

nPeace said:
Well you just admitted that some are figurative. So fortunately for us, you don't have the authority to decide for anyone but yourself, what's figurative or not.

I don't see where I said that some are figurative.
All these look literal to me. How about you? If it was not for the WT telling you that nobody will see Jesus except the 144000 would you say that they are literal. Of course you would. But the WT (and you) have other doctrines to protect, so they deny and twist scriptures and you agree. So what do you believe, God's Word or what the WT tells you?
>>>We will see Jesus when He returns, and the WT says NO.
Luke 13:35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. And I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
Matt 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
The scriptures even say that people will see God.
Psalm 17:15 As for me, I will behold Your face in righteousness; when I awake, I will be satisfied in Your presence.
Job 19:26 Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God. 27 I will see Him for myself; my eyes will behold Him, and not as a stranger. How my heart yearns within me!<<<

nPeace said:
Well, I see you have your own doctrines, but what does your doctrines have to do with JWs and the Bible?

I was showing scriptures that contradict JW doctrine and you are again just getting out of answering. It must be hard to defend the doctrines of a group that denies the Bible. Not answering is a way of avoiding but one would think that eventually it should be clear that the WT has many things wrong and are willing to deny and even change scriptures to defend their doctrines.

Brian2 · May 16, 2021

nPeace said:
Brian, do you really think JWs are backward? Don't answer that.
JWs are made up of Scientists, Engineers, Physicians, Teachers, Lawyers, ... Are they any Greek scholars among them?
Wouldn't it seem odd to think that Frederick Franz was the only one who had a knowledge of Greek?

Why would that be odd.
JWs are made of of people who became believers, from ever walk of life, you can possibly think of, including police officers, and drug dealers.

Sounds like you are saying that the NWT at Romans 8:23 is accurate and all other translations are inaccurate,,,,,,,,,,,,,even when there is a part of the same chapter which supports all the other translations and contradicts the NWT (Romans 8:11)
Jesus rises bodily, and goes to heaven bodily and you have maybe one passage which you say shows us Jesus has no physical body (in 1Cor 15) and I have tried to answer that but you do not answer what I way, just avoid.
How about Phil 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Our bodies will be transformed. We aren't "released by ransom from our bodies".

Brian2 · May 16, 2021

Deeje said:
Sorry if this has been covered before but the answer is simple.....the literal nation of Israel is no longer connected to the God they purport to worship. Literal Israel was cast off as the serial covenant breakers that they always proved to be when they rejected Jesus as their Messiah. Read Jesus words in Matthew 23:37-39....what did he tell them ? If they fail to 'bless the one who came in Jehovah's name' they would never see him again.....meaning that they would lose their lives with all the other opposers of God's Kingdom.

The apostle Paul identified another "Israel" and he was speaking about the Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus Christ when he spoke of them as "The Israel of God". (Galatians 6:16) These were spiritual "Jews" as Paul described...(Romans 2:25-29) Some fleshly Jews make up spiritual Israel, but as a nation they failed to live up to their dedication to God, forcing him to choose a new nation to replace them. (Matt 21:33-44)
Matthew 21:43....
"This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits."
Could he have said anything clearer than that?

Nevertheless there is still the Mosaic Covenant which God will be faithful to and to those Jews who are faithful to it. Jews have been deceived about Jesus and it is not because they have rejected Jesus, and have been blinded to the meaning of their scriptures. In the latter days Israel and the Jews will be prominent in world affairs (as they are now) and will be brought back to Israel (as they are now) and they will see Jesus, and turn to Him then and He will save them politically as the scriptures tell us. (see Zech 14)
Matt 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Israel will mourn for the one they pierced. (Zech 12:10-14)

Deeje said:
There are clearly two groups of Christians in Revelation 7.
Jesus' words to the Samaritan woman confirm that this Mt Zion is not an earthly geographical location.
"Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father." (John 4:20)
The first group are seen on Mt Zion....not the literal mountain, but picturing the seat of God's worship in heaven. They are a finite group, specifically numbered. The Lamb is with them in this heavenly location.

Whether it is a heavenly location is a matter of opinion.
The great crowd are before the throne,,,,,,,,,surely a heavenly location.
The Jews were to worship at the Temple in Zion and the Samaritans worshipped in Samaria on Mt Gerizim.
Jesus was saying that the location will not matter but true worshippers will worship in spirit and truth (John 4:23,24). It has nothing to do with location and it does not mean that heaven or that the Mt Zion in Rev 7 is in heaven.

Deeje said:
The second group are a "great crowd which no man was able to number out of all nations, tribes, people and tongues" because they are an infinite group of undetermined number and not confined to any specific nation. But when asked who they were John was told that "these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation" which occurs on earth. (Matthew 24:21) They are the nucleus of the "new earth" which many of God's pre-Christian servants knew about and looked forward to. (2 Peter 3:13)
Both groups attribute their salvation to God and to the Lamb. But the first group it says in Revelation 14 are chosen as "firstfruits from among mankind" so as with all 'firsts'...others will follow. But these will not have heaven as their destination because the first group act as "kings and priests". (Revelation 20:6)

The great crowd have come out of whatever nation they were in and are all in the nation that Jesus started.
They come out of the great tribulation yes but in Rev 20 it says the ones ruling had not received the mark of the beast and so they would have come out of the great tribulation also.
With 2Peter 3:13 it seems Peter and the ones he was writing to were looking forward to a new heaven and new earth too,,,,,,,,,,and they would have been anointed in WT theology I think.
Anyway the New Jerusalem is said to come down from heaven (Rev 3:12, Rev 21) and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and God and the Lamb will be in it it seems and God will be dwelling there and be with His people. (see Luke 13:28, Heb 11:13-16) The OT saints were looking forward to a heavenly country. The heavens and earth will be transformed so that they is new and does not wear out (this one does and will be rolled up like a scroll) and heaven it seems is coming to be on earth. (see Romans 8 for the creation groaning until the revelation of the sons of God and then it will be redeemed also,,,,,,,,,,,,,,like our bodies are --Romans 8:23 Phil 3:20)

Deeje said:
So who do they rule....and for whom do they act as priests? Kings do not rule one another, and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. If everyone goes to heaven, we would have 'all chiefs and no Indians'. (excuse the political incorrectness but I couldn't think of another way to say it) There are no sinners in heaven. Those chosen for that specific role are given new spiritual bodies in order for them to be sinless and to be able to exist in God's presence. But their rulership is for their earthly subjects as Revelation 21:2-4 tells us....

"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

"New Jerusalem", like Mt Zion is a heavenly location, not an earthly one. God does not need to dwell 'physically' with 'mankind' or it would kill them. No mortal earthling can survive that experience, (Exodus 33:20) so God's presence among his people will be like it was with original Israel...through his appointed earthly representatives.

Only when humankind have attained perfection, having shed their sinful state through the 1,000 year reign of Christ and his 144,000, will we then be able to deal with our God as Adam and Jesus did.....directly without the aid of a mediator.

FWIW...that is how we see the future....and who will be given rulership positions....and who won't. We don't mind what position we hold as long as we are there....we will love to serve our God wherever he wants us.

You have no scripture about who will be ruled over. It is a guess that one group of Christians rule over another.
The firstfruits are all those who are born again,,,,,,,,,,,all Christians (1John 5:1) and the OT saints also will be in the Kingdom of God so they also will be born again. (Luke 13:28, John 3:5)
The survivors of the nations which attacked Jerusalem will be ruled over in the 1000 years (Zech 14) after that I assume it will be anyone who is not part of the first resurrection but whom Jesus has mercy on after the final judgement after the 1000 years.

Brian2 · May 16, 2021

nPeace said:
You just don't understand what you read Brian. Perhaps your beliefs are creating that problem.
the release from our bodies by ransom
release by ransom of the body of us
What's the difference?

I have this problem with Baha'is at times. It seems to be a blindness to what the written English language is saying. But of course it is easier to understand when it is not obfuscated. How about this?
Redemption from our bodies.
Redemption of our bodies.
Do you see the difference now.

nPeace said:
Oh. Your beliefs. That's what's wrong.

No it's a further obfuscation of the scriptures in a mistranslation of Hebrews 12:23.

nPeace said:
It's evident you are desperately grabbing at straws, and coming up with a handful of air - emptiness arguments Brian.

It is evident that all you can do is avoid answering and throwing in a little mocking as well. That is the way it started I guess and it is probably my fault in that respect.

nPeace said:
I did not say anything of the sort.
Nowhere in scripture does it say heavenly Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.
If you believe that, then you provide the scripture that says that.

So now you are refusing to answer the questions and asking for scriptures which I have given and which say that the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven. Maybe you think that Rev 3:12 and Rev 21 mean that it will come down for a little while and go back up.

nPeace said:
Seems?
There are no Christians in heaven and there will be none during the thousand years.
The 144,00 are neither Jew nor Gentile, Slave nor freeman, nor Christian... "You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise. (Galatians 3:26-29)

...and yes, the Bible says one class rules another.
Are you prolonging this by asking me to repeat scriptures? Scriptures

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/jws-the-bible.243621/page-13#post-7124663

Why do you quote Gal 3:26-29 to me when it is for all Christians unless your authority is the Governing Body of JWs. It used to me "The Bible say it and so I believe it" now it is "The Governing Body says it and so JWs believe it, with no scriptural evidence and even if they change their mind every now and then and tell me the scriptures mean something else."
But yes you better give me scriptures that you have never given to me.

nPeace said:
Okay right. You are out to waste my time.
You have not responded to a number of posts.
When you cover them, I'll respond, but right now, you are
just prolonging the inevitable, and making me repeat what I have already answered is wasting my time.

That's not being honest Brian.

I have been working my way through the posts. I guess it's time to answer the question.
>>>Does it say in those verses that there are 2 lots of Christians and one lot rule over another? I just don't see it, can you point it out to me?<<<

Brian2 · May 16, 2021

nPeace said:
Tell me Brian... How did they see Abraham, Was there also a window, and did they peep through it and see him?

You should ask Jesus that as He is the one who said they will be there in the Kingdom and seen.

nPeace said:
I really would like this for you.
Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. (Matthew 25:34)
View attachment 50430

However... does that not require you listen to the faithful and discrete slave, and support Christ's brothers here on earth... Would you rather choose to complain against them?

The Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah and his claims about himself and the Bible even when they obviously disagree with the Bible. JWs believe the men at the top of their organisation even when they obviously disagree with the Bible.

nPeace said:
So when you read scriptures like Luke 16:18-17, don't just jump and say, "Aha!"
Ask yourself some questions...
When did Abraham go to heaven?
Could Abraham go to heaven before Jesus died, and opened the way to heaven by his death?
How could Abraham go to heaven... Was he born again - baptized in water, and holy spirit?

Luke 16 has Abraham and Lazarus is in Hades, not heaven.
The scripture I was talking about was Luke 13:28 where it said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be in the Kingdom of God.

nPeace said:
You see, when I post a response to you, with questions, you avoid them. You stay away for a long time, and when you return, you skip them. Like this one You completely ignored the questions in there.
So tell me Brian. When did Abraham go to heaven? Where in scripture does it say Abraham was born of water and spirit? When was he baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and baptized into his death, and annointed by holy spirit, as an adopted son of God?

I don't know where but since He is in the Kingdom of God then that MUST happen some time (see John 3). Maybe when Jesus welcomes the righteous into the Kingdom of God at the judgement.
Matt 25:34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
But that is something that you should be considering and answering for yourself since it affects what you believe.

nPeace said:
These are just some of many questions you apparently don't want to consider.
Did you tell me what God's kingdom is?

noun
-a state or government having a king or queen as its head.
-anything conceived as constituting a realm or sphere of independent action or control:the kingdom of thought.
-a realm or province of nature, especially one of the three broad divisions of natural objects:the animal, vegetable, and mineral kingdoms.
-Biology. a taxonomic category of the second highest rank, just below domain: in a traditional five-kingdom classification scheme, separate kingdoms are assigned to animals (Animalia), plants (Plantae), fungi (Fungi), protozoa and eukaryotic algae (Protista), and bacteria and blue-green algae (Monera).
-the spiritual sovereignty of God or Christ.
-the domain over which the spiritual sovereignty of God or Christ extends, whether in heaven or on earth.

The first one is the closest to what you suggest but it does include the domain over which the King and government rules.

nPeace · May 16, 2021

Brian2 said:
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201104/Is-God-Omnipresent/
It seems to be saying that God's holy spirit is everywhere but not God. So then the official reason that the WT denies the scripture is because it has a doctrine which says that scripture is wrong. The doctrine is that the holy spirit is not God. But even their translation says that the Jehovah is the Spirit.
2Cor 3:17 Now Jehovah is the Spirit, and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.
So because of their doctrine they deny such passages Acts 17:28 and 1Kings 8:27. Interestingly they mention parts of 1Kings 8 but not that verse.

You think the holy spirit is God? Why would I bother talking to you about that?

Brian2 said:
I don't see where I said that some are figurative.
All these look literal to me. How about you? If it was not for the WT telling you that nobody will see Jesus except the 144000 would you say that they are literal. Of course you would. But the WT (and you) have other doctrines to protect, so they deny and twist scriptures and you agree. So what do you believe, God's Word or what the WT tells you?
>>>We will see Jesus when He returns, and the WT says NO.
Luke 13:35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. And I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
Matt 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
The scriptures even say that people will see God.
Psalm 17:15 As for me, I will behold Your face in righteousness; when I awake, I will be satisfied in Your presence.
Job 19:26 Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God. 27 I will see Him for myself; my eyes will behold Him, and not as a stranger. How my heart yearns within me!<<<

I don't remember where you said it, but too much digging would be required, and that like a grain of salt compared to other things.

Brian2 said:
I was showing scriptures that contradict JW doctrine and you are again just getting out of answering. It must be hard to defend the doctrines of a group that denies the Bible. Not answering is a way of avoiding but one would think that eventually it should be clear that the WT has many things wrong and are willing to deny and even change scriptures to defend their doctrines.

Why would I try to convince a blind man that believes he is seeing pink, that he isn't? Would you?

Brian2 said:
Sounds like you are saying that the NWT at Romans 8:23 is accurate and all other translations are inaccurate,,,,,,,,,,,,,even when there is a part of the same chapter which supports all the other translations and contradicts the NWT (Romans 8:11)
Jesus rises bodily, and goes to heaven bodily and you have maybe one passage which you say shows us Jesus has no physical body (in 1Cor 15) and I have tried to answer that but you do not answer what I way, just avoid.
How about Phil 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Our bodies will be transformed. We aren't "released by ransom from our bodies".

You've made it clear where you want to be.

nPeace · May 16, 2021

Brian2 said:
I have this problem with Baha'is at times. It seems to be a blindness to what the written English language is saying. But of course it is easier to understand when it is not obfuscated. How about this?
Redemption from our bodies.
Redemption of our bodies.
Do you see the difference now.

In what you say, and what the scriptures say? Yes.

Brian2 said:
No it's a further obfuscation of the scriptures in a mistranslation of Hebrews 12:23.

It is evident that all you can do is avoid answering and throwing in a little mocking as well. That is the way it started I guess and it is probably my fault in that respect.

So now you are refusing to answer the questions and asking for scriptures which I have given and which say that the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven. Maybe you think that Rev 3:12 and Rev 21 mean that it will come down for a little while and go back up.

Why do you quote Gal 3:26-29 to me when it is for all Christians unless your authority is the Governing Body of JWs. It used to me "The Bible say it and so I believe it" now it is "The Governing Body says it and so JWs believe it, with no scriptural evidence and even if they change their mind every now and then and tell me the scriptures mean something else."
But yes you better give me scriptures that you have never given to me.

I have been working my way through the posts. I guess it's time to answer the question.
>>>Does it say in those verses that there are 2 lots of Christians and one lot rule over another? I just don't see it, can you point it out to me?<<<

You have been working your way through the posts, bit by bit... only when I respond to your latest.
There is a reason for that, I am sure.

Brian2 said:
You should ask Jesus that as He is the one who said they will be there in the Kingdom and seen.

I gave you the answer. Did you miss it?
Read Matthew 13:10-16, until you get it then. Otherwise, I am not sure I can help you.

Brian2 said:
The Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah and his claims about himself and the Bible even when they obviously disagree with the Bible. JWs believe the men at the top of their organisation even when they obviously disagree with the Bible.

Luke 16 has Abraham and Lazarus is in Hades, not heaven.
The scripture I was talking about was Luke 13:28 where it said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be in the Kingdom of God.

I don't know where but since He is in the Kingdom of God then that MUST happen some time (see John 3). Maybe when Jesus welcomes the righteous into the Kingdom of God at the judgement.
Matt 25:34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
But that is something that you should be considering and answering for yourself since it affects what you believe.

You are going outside of scriptures for your answers. I have no interest in what you speculate will happen or will be. I mention that quite often.

Brian2 said:
noun
-a state or government having a king or queen as its head.
-anything conceived as constituting a realm or sphere of independent action or control:the kingdom of thought.
-a realm or province of nature, especially one of the three broad divisions of natural objects:the animal, vegetable, and mineral kingdoms.
-Biology. a taxonomic category of the second highest rank, just below domain: in a traditional five-kingdom classification scheme, separate kingdoms are assigned to animals (Animalia), plants (Plantae), fungi (Fungi), protozoa and eukaryotic algae (Protista), and bacteria and blue-green algae (Monera).
-the spiritual sovereignty of God or Christ.
-the domain over which the spiritual sovereignty of God or Christ extends, whether in heaven or on earth.

The first one is the closest to what you suggest but it does include the domain over which the King and government rules.

Really? So the US government includes the people of the United States of America, and their lands? Okay then. I did not know that.

Brian2 · May 17, 2021

nPeace said:
What you said there is nowhere in the Bible.
Who are the offspring of Abraham biologically, and where exactly in any of the scriptures you quoted, did it say that?
Where exactly in any of the verses you quoted, does it say "all of faith are also the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise."?
Point out the exact verse please.

I end here, until I get this and my previous post answered.
These things need to be cleared.

The biological offspring of Abraham are those of the 1 tribes of Israel and the offspring of Esau. Does that have to in a scripture I quoted? It is just common sense.
Romans 4:15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may rest on grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring— not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the presence of God, in whom he believed, the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not yet exist.…
The righteous shall live by faith.
Gal 3:7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
Abraham is in the Kingdom of God according to Jesus and so He must be born again at some time according to Jesus in John 3. The gospel was announced in advance to Abraham (verse 7) and he believed even if he did not know the details, but it was credited to him as righteousness. The blessing was given to him and others of faith who believe, this means Christians but also others of faith, those mentioned in Heb 11 who are as numerous as the stars in the sky (Heb 11:12) It is not just Abraham who is said to be in the Kingdom of God, Isaac and Jacob also are there according to Jesus and I think He was also including others of faith from the OT.

Brian2 · May 17, 2021

nPeace said:
So you do not have scripture, but you are speculating about what you want to believe?
So why have you been objecting all this time Brian?
Haven't I repeatedly reminded you we are discussing scripture.
By your own admission, you object to them based on - not scripture, but your beliefs.
All this time.

As I have said, the fact of Abraham etc being in the Kingdom of God according to Jesus means that they have been born of God, have the Spirit. I just do not know when they get it. It is based on scripture.

nPeace said:
The scriptural facts are these Brian.
Those given the kingdom are a little flock - Luke 12:32

The little flock of Luke 12:32 are the disciples Jesus was speaking to. Notice the context.
Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

nPeace said:
The Bible gives the number of those sealed in the heavenly kingdom, as 144,000 - Revelation 7:1-8 ; Revelation 14:1-5
Whether you believe that number is symbolic or not, is irrelevant, for a number of reasons.

(a) You have no scriptural basis.

---What are the 144000 sealed with and for? and how do you know it is in the heavenly kingdom and that the great crowd do not go to heaven. If they are before the throne they are in heaven.
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great crowd that no one was able to number, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes and with palm branches in their hands.
If the number is not symbolic who are the 144000. They are virgin Jewish men from the tribes of Israel. Some see the whole thing as literal and that these are Jews who are converted in the great tribulation and who go and convert the great crowd having the protection and anointing of God for that. The JWs of course deny the OT passages about God being faithful to His covenant with them and that they will see the one they pierced and that He will indeed save them from the attacks of their enemies in the last days. (Zech 12:10) (Zech 14:2-4)
Romans 11:24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.…
So after the fulness of the gentiles come in the Jews will be saved and so why aren't the 144000 literal Jews?
They look as if they come out of the great tribulation also. The beginning of the sealing comes before the land trees and sea are harmed, before the last seal is opened. (Rev 7:1-4)

nPeace said:
(b) You cannot show one single scripture for anyone prior to Jesus being baptized by water and spirit - a requirement for those who would enter the kingdom of the heavens.
(c) Many many righteous ones therefore, have not received the heavenly calling, prior to Jesus.

Does being born of water mean that they have to be baptised in water? That is one interpretation I guess. It could mean just a natural birth and being born of the spirit (the second birth) is when the receive the Holy Spirit.
I have said that because they are in the Kingdom that means they have been born of the spirit. They also have been born naturally, the first birth. Read John 3.
Abraham and the people of faith desired a better country a heavenly one (Heb 11:16) and God has prepared a city for them and they will be made perfect with us at the right time. (Heb 11:39,40)

nPeace said:
God does the choosing and sealing, which started from eleven of Jesus' followers, who stuck with him in his trials. - 2 Corinthians 1:22 ; 2 Corinthians 5:5 ; Ephesians 1:13, 14 ; Luke 22:28-30 ; John 14:2, 3
Many many righteous ones will make up the great multitude who are not sealed to receive the kingdom. - Revelation 7:9-17

Who make up the righteous new earth? Not the 144,000 sealed as kingdom heirs. All other righteous ones will... including those resurrected ones who are found written in the book of life.

The seal that ALL Christians get is the Holy Spirit, the 144000 no doubt get the Holy Spirit but the seal mentioned in Revelation 7:3 is a seal on the forehead. This is not the Holy Spirit but some other type of seal.
And of course as I said it was 144000 all at the one time.
The heavenly calling bit for the 144000 only is a fantasy of the WT. Nothing in scripture about that. In fact the scripture tells us they will be on the earth.
Rev 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
I know that the NWT has "over the earth" and that is legitimate but they do break their own basic meaning of prepositions chart inside the front cover of the Kingdom Interlinear.
I guess they do this because they have decided that the 144000 is the ruling class in the Government of God and priests that is what the passage is about even though in the other parts of the NT all Christians belong to the Royal priesthood unless you believe the WT about most of the New Testament not being written for all Christians.
Anyway Romans 5:17 speaks about reigning in life and it has nothing to do with ruling over people. Reigning does not necessarily mean ruling over people.
And anyway again the people in Rev 5:10 are from every tribe and language and people and nation. Does that fit the JW 144000? No. There are 6500 thousand languages and there would not be a JW from each one. That description does fit the great crowd however who come from every tribe and language and people and nation (Rev 7:9.)
Basically either way, literal 144000 or figurative, the WT does not fit the scriptures in their interpretation.

nPeace said:
No. That is not the point. Nor is it the truth.
Unless you are guided by the GB, in grasping what the Bible teaches, you will continue to believe things you cannot support scripturally, which you just moments ago demonstrated.

The reason I do not believe the Governing Body is because I cannot agree with them from the Bible. You should try it.

nPeace said:
I addressed that twice already.

It's a pretty basic thing. How do you show that the 144000 is linked with the rest of the New Testament. You cannot and so you run from the question. Any scriptures you have given do not show that except in the fantasies of a GB desperate for that evidence and JWs who believe the fantasies.
And with their fantasies they change the gospel and deny most of the New Testament to you and say you are not in the New Covenant and have not got the Holy Spirit etc etc which contradicts what the New Testament tells us, and I have shown you scriptures to that effect.

Brian2 · May 18, 2021

nPeace said:
Seriously.
Have you really read or studied the Bible, or do you just try to look for scriptures to support your beliefs.
(Revelation 1:1) A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,

Revelation is presented in signs.
I discussed this with you before.
Take Revelation 14 - the lamb on Mount Zion with 144,000, having his name, and the name of the father, written on their forehead, taken from the earth as firstfruits from among mankind, and they did not defile themselves with women, but kept following the lamb wherever he went. Etc.
Is every single word and expression symbolic? No.
You can choose to stay in the dark and rely on your beliefs, or you can come to the light and be guided in understanding.
It's up to you.

The size of New Jerusalem exceeds the size of earth. Taken literally, it would not fit on earth.
What is New Jerusalem?

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502018134

That translation of Rev 1:1 is different to any other I have seen. Maybe the translators did not know the Greek.
Anyway that is beside the point. Yes Revelation is an apocalyptic book and so is presented in symbols.
It works out to about 1400 miles by 1400 by 1400. I don't know if it weighs anything. It is a heavenly city. Do you think the New Earth will be bigger or the same size?
The current earth is about 8000 miles in diameter so it would be a prominent feature on the earth, as it should be no doubt.
So it is a big city which comes down out of heaven and you deny the scripture because you think it is a big city.
I think the earth could cope. The article below says it may be a pyramid or cube but I have always seen it as a cube. The article also says the Holy of Holies in the temple was a cube. Interesting.
Size of New Jerusalem

nPeace said:
First. Heavenly Jerusalem and New Jerusalem are not the same thing. Heavenly Jerusalem does not come down out of heaven.

The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. I would say it is the heavenly Jerusalem which is coming down from heaven.

nPeace said:
Second. There is not a single scripture in the Bible that says "God and the Lamb will be in it and so the 144000 will be there", and the claim that "we know that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be there" has no scriptural backing, at all.
As they say, that has been thoroughly debunked, and you admitted you can't support that belief scripturally.

That God and the Lamb will be there and that the New Jerusalem will be God's dwelling place and He will be with His people is all there.
Rev 21:............3 “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people,................"
So this scripture is implying that God lived there in heaven and now it is down with His people, on earth.
The Scriptures say that the Lamb will be the lamp of the city and God will be the light. It sounds like the light of God is going to shine from the Lamb to me. If the 144000 are going to be with Jesus then they also will be there.

nPeace said:
Abraham's seed is Christ, and the heirs to the kingdom - the 144,000 holy ones.
Yes, Abraham and those who were faithful before the seed arrived, all looked forward to a better place - the one belonging to heaven, and that is exactly where they will dwell. God is pleased to give them a city... on the earth.

The city belonging to heaven is the one that comes down from heaven, where God and the Lamb will be.

nPeace said:
(Daniel 7:27)  “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’

Yes God's Kingdom is ruling over all the earth because the Kingdom of the earth has become the Kingdom of our God. So God's Kingdom stretches over all the earth and further. (Rev 11:15) And God and Christ will rule forever.

nPeace said:
These cities belong to the holy ones of the supreme one - the 144,000.
Abraham - God's friend - was not chosen as one of these. God did not give him that seal as a token of an inheritance as an annointed son of God, but along with the whole earth he will obtain a blessing for himself... and he will be happy living as a 'prince' in the earth.

Abraham will be in the heavenly city. Do you think that there will be more heavenly cities coming down and the one that the Bible says will come down does not come down. Hmmmm interesting.
Why do you deny that Abraham is going to be born again. Jesus said he would be in the Kingdom of God and Jesus said that if someone entered the KofG they would have to be born again.

nPeace said:
(Hebrews 2:5) For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking. . .

Are you trying to say that you think Jesus is not Michael the Archangel?

nPeace said:
(Isaiah 32:1) Look! A king will reign for righteousness, And princes will rule for justice.

Yes, so. Nobody is saying that there won't be princes, it is just the WT interpretation that is in question.
I presented a literal interpretation in my last post I think, of the 144000, which agrees a lot better than the JW interpretation and does not require any change to the gospel.

nPeace · May 19, 2021

Brian2 said:
The biological offspring of Abraham are those of the 1 tribes of Israel and the offspring of Esau. Does that have to in a scripture I quoted? It is just common sense.
Romans 4:15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may rest on grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring— not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the presence of God, in whom he believed, the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not yet exist.…
The righteous shall live by faith.
....
Abraham is in the Kingdom of God according to Jesus and so He must be born again at some time according to Jesus in John 3. The gospel was announced in advance to Abraham (verse 7) and he believed even if he did not know the details, but it was credited to him as righteousness. The blessing was given to him and others of faith who believe, this means Christians but also others of faith, those mentioned in Heb 11 who are as numerous as the stars in the sky (Heb 11:12) It is not just Abraham who is said to be in the Kingdom of God, Isaac and Jacob also are there according to Jesus and I think He was also including others of faith from the OT.

Repeating what you believe or want to believe, does not annul scripture.
Abraham was neither baptized in water, nor annointed by holy spirit. He was not chosen for heavenly life.
The scriptures makes it clear, when the choosing of the heirs of the kingdom began; who made that possible and how.
Jesus' illustration does not support your belief. It doesn't matter how often you repeat it.

Brian2 said:
As I have said, the fact of Abraham etc being in the Kingdom of God according to Jesus means that they have been born of God, have the Spirit. I just do not know when they get it. It is based on scripture.

Repeated many times, you have said what you want to believe, but it does not annul the scriptures.
Speculating on what you would like to believe is not scripture. It's going beyond what is written.

Brian2 said:
The little flock of Luke 12:32 are the disciples Jesus was speaking to. Notice the context.
Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

---What are the 144000 sealed with and for? and how do you know it is in the heavenly kingdom and that the great crowd do not go to heaven. If they are before the throne they are in heaven.
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great crowd that no one was able to number, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes and with palm branches in their hands.
If the number is not symbolic who are the 144000. They are virgin Jewish men from the tribes of Israel. Some see the whole thing as literal and that these are Jews who are converted in the great tribulation and who go and convert the great crowd having the protection and anointing of God for that. The JWs of course deny the OT passages about God being faithful to His covenant with them and that they will see the one they pierced and that He will indeed save them from the attacks of their enemies in the last days. (Zech 12:10) (Zech 14:2-4)
Romans 11:24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.…
So after the fulness of the gentiles come in the Jews will be saved and so why aren't the 144000 literal Jews?
They look as if they come out of the great tribulation also. The beginning of the sealing comes before the land trees and sea are harmed, before the last seal is opened. (Rev 7:1-4)

Does being born of water mean that they have to be baptised in water? That is one interpretation I guess. It could mean just a natural birth and being born of the spirit (the second birth) is when the receive the Holy Spirit.
I have said that because they are in the Kingdom that means they have been born of the spirit. They also have been born naturally, the first birth. Read John 3.
Abraham and the people of faith desired a better country a heavenly one (Heb 11:16) and God has prepared a city for them and they will be made perfect with us at the right time. (Heb 11:39,40)

The seal that ALL Christians get is the Holy Spirit, the 144000 no doubt get the Holy Spirit but the seal mentioned in Revelation 7:3 is a seal on the forehead. This is not the Holy Spirit but some other type of seal.
And of course as I said it was 144000 all at the one time.
The heavenly calling bit for the 144000 only is a fantasy of the WT. Nothing in scripture about that. In fact the scripture tells us they will be on the earth.
Rev 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
I know that the NWT has "over the earth" and that is legitimate but they do break their own basic meaning of prepositions chart inside the front cover of the Kingdom Interlinear.
I guess they do this because they have decided that the 144000 is the ruling class in the Government of God and priests that is what the passage is about even though in the other parts of the NT all Christians belong to the Royal priesthood unless you believe the WT about most of the New Testament not being written for all Christians.
Anyway Romans 5:17 speaks about reigning in life and it has nothing to do with ruling over people. Reigning does not necessarily mean ruling over people.
And anyway again the people in Rev 5:10 are from every tribe and language and people and nation. Does that fit the JW 144000? No. There are 6500 thousand languages and there would not be a JW from each one. That description does fit the great crowd however who come from every tribe and language and people and nation (Rev 7:9.)
Basically either way, literal 144000 or figurative, the WT does not fit the scriptures in their interpretation.

The reason I do not believe the Governing Body is because I cannot agree with them from the Bible. You should try it.

It's a pretty basic thing. How do you show that the 144000 is linked with the rest of the New Testament. You cannot and so you run from the question. Any scriptures you have given do not show that except in the fantasies of a GB desperate for that evidence and JWs who believe the fantasies.
And with their fantasies they change the gospel and deny most of the New Testament to you and say you are not in the New Covenant and have not got the Holy Spirit etc etc which contradicts what the New Testament tells us, and I have shown you scriptures to that effect.

So I think it's safe to say our conversation has reached its limit, and is going nowhere. Agreed?

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