"Debunking" other people belief in different religious teachings.

Pete in Panama · May 15, 2021

CG Didymus said:
Another thing I should mention is that I don't think it is right for Christians to take "The Bible" and make it their own and add in their "New Testament" to it and include it as being "The Bible." They do what Baha'is do to the NT. They interpret it in a way that fits Baha'i beliefs. But I don't think it is accurate as to how the writers intended their writings to be taken. Not that I believe what they said is true, but I think they intended for people to believe in a devil, in hell, in demons and in a Jesus that rose physically from the dead and is going to return.

They told stories of a Jesus that had a miraculous birth, walked on water and healed lepers, the blind, the crippled and even brought people back to life. They wanted Jesus to be a God/man and greater than any prophet that had come before. I think it was all an exaggerated, embellished story that was written by men and made into "The Word of God". But that's just a guess. And how do Baha'is take the NT? It seems like they can make it the Word of God when they need to to and the words of men when they want to. And make whatever they want, even though it is written as an actual event, like the resurrection, into an allegorical story.

Here is a little more context...
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

If there are wars and rumors of wars, then I don't see how it can be the end yet. And we do still have wars and rumors of wars, yet it's almost 200 since the Baha'i Faith started. Many false Christs will come. There will be the abomination of desolation. There will be a great tribulation. It seems very possible, we are heading towards that day... but Baha'is say that day has already happened... in one sense. But Baha'is, themselves have the world heading toward a great tribulation, because the world, for the most part, rejected Baha'u'llah. To me, that is not how the NT has things. Jesus comes down and destroys all evil people and casts the devil into an abyss. But, that is accepting a prophetic vision as being real. As I understand it, Revelation had some people voting against making it "Scripture". But then again, it was people voting on which stories and letters to make "Scripture"?

I can fully understand why some people reject the NT. And, I can understand why some Christians take it to be the Word of God. But Baha'is have found a way to reject it and accept it at the same time. They have found a way to make it say exactly what they need it to say. Wars and rumors of wars? I don't even know if Jesus really said that. What if it was just something Matthew thought would be a good thing to say? So, no matter what I think or say will change what Baha'is need to believe about it. It cannot be literal. Wars and rumors of wars will continue, even though the "End", the coming of the "Christ", Baha'u'llah, has already come and gone.

There's a lot there & I'd like to take a salient point or 2 but right now my life's gotten a bit 'interesting' so it'll be a few more days...

Brian2 · May 16, 2021

Pete in Panama said:
there's a lot of really good stuff there I'd love to chat w/ u about --right now my life has turn sort of upside down & it'll take a few days for me to find a way thru.

Will get back to u.

No problem.

Pete in Panama · May 16, 2021

Brian2 said:
No problem.

Thanks, my thinking now is that maybe I can keep my head on straight better if I maintain my online contacts.

Brian2 said:
Yes it is easier these days to find information about the Bible. As usual a lot of misleading stuff but we find our niche...

Exactly, more effort in some directions but in all a lot better.

Brian2 said:
...The Baha'i writings are a different kettle of fish even if there are official translations. It's like reading a tough philosophy treatise cross Psalms in an older style of English and with flowery language that is never 100% clear as to the meaning. And it seems to go on like that forever according to the number of little books Baha'u'llah wrote,,,,,,,,and with more to come it seems, when it is decided to release them...

This is where I get lost but maybe the mixup is in the fact that the target audience is the entire world on an intimately personal level. That may seem like a contradiction but it's eminently possible and imho it's what's done --but the point is that there are lots of folks out there that are crazy about jumping into "a tough philosophy treatise cross Psalms in an older style of English and with flowery language that is never 100% clear as to the meaning", --they just eat it up. I don't, & it sounds like u don't either. The King James Bible was written w/ lots of Thee's and Thou's not because folks talked that way in 1610, but because it was ancient then & the translators wanted to impress upon the reader the idea of a God that was ageless. Me & a lot of other folks think it was a good idea --but I'll be the first to say it's not for everyone.

--but the part that baffles me is that so many other writings are clear and extremely pointed. Calling for a world tribunal, a uniform system of weights & measures, the equality of men & women, a lot of new stuff for this age that would have been impossiblef 2,000 years ago but mandatory now. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong for missing this, I'm saying you must have seen this & for some reason it didn't wash, you saw something I missed, & I'd be grateful if share why.

Brian2 said:
...I'm not sure how following along with the Baha'i stuff would make anyone a good Christian...

That's me, what I was impressed w/ is the return of Christ's presence. My thinking is of Christ's parable of the vineyard how the story went that the owner sent servants to the vineyard to talk to the tenants who beat up the servants so the owner says he'll send his son (from here):

Luke: 20 said:
13 “Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son. Perhaps they will respect him when they see him.’

14 “But when the vinedressers saw him, they debated among themselves, saying, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.’ 15 So they drove him out of the vineyard and killed him.

“What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and kill these vinedressers and will give the vineyard to others.”

When they heard this, they said, “May it not be so!”

17 He looked at them and said, “What then is this that is written:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone...

--& I can show you prophesies that impressed me if ur interested.

Pete in Panama · May 16, 2021

Hi I'm back. My life's still turned around but maybe I'm better off chatting w/ my friends here.

CG Didymus said:
Another thing I should mention is that I don't think it is right for Christians to take "The Bible" and make it their own and add in their "New Testament" to it and include it as being "The Bible." They do what Baha'is do to the NT. They interpret it in a way that fits Baha'i beliefs...

We're sort of together on this, it's the fact that the Scriptures tell us not to add anything, & yet we do. One examples is from Deuteronomy 12:32--

Deuteronomy 12:32 said:
Whatever I command you, be careful to do it. You shall not add to it or take away from it.

--and then Christ came (as was foretold in many prophesies) and changed so much. Then with the revelation continued and we were given--

...preach any other gospel...let him be accursed... (Gal 1:8)
...If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written
in this book. (Rev 22:18)
...Till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot will pass from the Law until all is
accomplished. (Matt 5:18-19)

--only to see those same passages superceeded by subsequent texts added later including the Gospel of John, 2 Peter, James, and others.

My take is that we can't add or take away, but we're required to accept the continuing revelation.

Brian2 · May 17, 2021

Pete in Panama said:
The King James Bible was written w/ lots of Thee's and Thou's not because folks talked that way in 1610, but because it was ancient then & the translators wanted to impress upon the reader the idea of a God that was ageless. Me & a lot of other folks think it was a good idea --but I'll be the first to say it's not for everyone.

I did not realise the type of language in the KJV was old even in 1610.
It certainly can make it harder to understand even if it is meant to be a beautiful translation. There are supposed to be some positives to the thees and thous and ye and etc, as it can show when 'you' is singular or not. I grew up a Catholic but in my teens was more interested in the Bible and my wife got me a KJV bible with concordance from a SDA minister. It was handy as I was able to get a Strongs concordance and other books that were related to it. It was a bit of a struggle to find things at times with other translations, when I was used to how things were put in one translation. It is not the most accurate however I hear.

Pete in Panama said:
--but the part that baffles me is that so many other writings are clear and extremely pointed. Calling for a world tribunal, a uniform system of weights & measures, the equality of men & women, a lot of new stuff for this age that would have been impossiblef 2,000 years ago but mandatory now. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong for missing this, I'm saying you must have seen this & for some reason it didn't wash, you saw something I missed, & I'd be grateful if share why.

I have see a little of it but not much. It would be interesting to see more,,,,,,,,,,even if only to attack it.

Even though it is harder to attack than other stuff.

Pete in Panama said:
That's me, what I was impressed w/ is the return of Christ's presence.
My thinking is of Christ's parable of the vineyard how the story went that the owner sent servants to the vineyard to talk to the tenants who beat up the servants so the owner says he'll send his son (from here):--& I can show you prophesies that impressed me if ur interested.

Baha'u'llah's prophecies I have looked at a little also. I would not mind seeing more.
I prefer the Bible prophecies about the return of Jesus compared to Baha'u'llah and even the Baha'i claim about the 1260 days prophecy from Daniel 12 I think. They are easier to debunk.

Pete in Panama · May 18, 2021

Brian2 said:
...I have see a little of it but not much. It would be interesting to see more,,,,,,,,,,even if only to attack it. Even though it is harder to attack than other stuff...

LOLOLOL!!!

For the life of me I don't know why but that just caught my funny bone & I'm still laughing. Thanks! Just so u know I had a bit of a loss today & I really needed a laugh. Thanks again.

Now I realize there's a grain of truth there & I don't blame u. Here, let me be candid. One of the core teachings is that in this new age we will see the "elimination of the extremes of wealth & poverty". I have gotten into so many arguments w/ other Baha'is as to what that means. Hey, I got no problem w/ it 'cause it makes perfect sense but my take's wildly different from that of so many other Baha'is. I'm telling you, this is one time that the "individual search for the truth" really comes into play.

Brian2 said:
...the Baha'i claim about the 1260 days prophecy from Daniel 12 I think. They are easier to debunk.

That one I found interesting, what's ur take on it?

Brian2 · May 21, 2021

Pete in Panama said:
LOLOLOL!!!

For the life of me I don't know why but that just caught my funny bone & I'm still laughing. Thanks! Just so u know I had a bit of a loss today & I really needed a laugh. Thanks again.

Glad to have been of help.

Pete in Panama said:
Now I realize there's a grain of truth there & I don't blame u. Here, let me be candid. One of the core teachings is that in this new age we will see the "elimination of the extremes of wealth & poverty". I have gotten into so many arguments w/ other Baha'is as to what that means. Hey, I got no problem w/ it 'cause it makes perfect sense but my take's wildly different from that of so many other Baha'is. I'm telling you, this is one time that the "individual search for the truth" really comes into play.That one I found interesting, what's ur take on it?

Daniel 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Prophecy of Daniel; Modifications of Baha'u'llah and the New Era

I find the commencement of the prophecy at the start of the Islamic calendar as arbitrary in Baha'i. The time is given in the prophecy as the time when the daily sacrifice is abolished.
The year for a day rule is used when this is not at all necessary imo and could just refer to the great tribulation period of 3 and a half years at the the age before Jesus returns. Daniel 12:1 seems to indicate this as the time of the prophecy and the end of the prophecy (the end of 1335 days) seems to be the time when Jesus will return and raise the dead, indicated by the fact that it looks like Daniel will be resurrected at the end of the 1335 days. (Dan:12:13)
After 1260 days the power of the holy people will be broken. I'm not sure what this has to do with 1882 when the 1260 years is finished.
I don't know what it says about who or what the "abomination of desolation" is (verse 11).
There seems to be a disjointed interpretation of the end of the1335 days in Baha'i and it does not seem to follow on from the 1260 in an unbroken line of time.

Pete in Panama · May 23, 2021

Brian2 said:
Glad to have been of help.

Daniel 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Prophecy of Daniel; Modifications of Baha'u'llah and the New Era

I find the commencement of the prophecy at the start of the Islamic calendar as arbitrary in Baha'i. The time is given in the prophecy as the time when the daily sacrifice is abolished.
The year for a day rule is used when this is not at all necessary imo and could just refer to the great tribulation period of 3 and a half years at the the age before Jesus returns. Daniel 12:1 seems to indicate this as the time of the prophecy and the end of the prophecy (the end of 1335 days) seems to be the time when Jesus will return and raise the dead, indicated by the fact that it looks like Daniel will be resurrected at the end of the 1335 days. (Dan:12:13)
After 1260 days the power of the holy people will be broken. I'm not sure what this has to do with 1882 when the 1260 years is finished.
I don't know what it says about who or what the "abomination of desolation" is (verse 11).
There seems to be a disjointed interpretation of the end of the1335 days in Baha'i and it does not seem to follow on from the 1260 in an unbroken line of time.

thanks for coming back to me on this & I completely agree w/ u on being unimpressed w/ what came out of the research dept. thru the dept. of the secretariat. imho a lot of that stuff (& I'd bet they'd agree) is believable only by those that already believe anyway.

The idea of switching to the Islamic calendar is however (imho) not that far off the wall because we're piecing together 2300 years (Daniel 8:14) and "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" in Revelation 11:3 but also as times, time, and a half in Daniel 12:7) & trying to make sense out of it. Are u familiar w/ the prophesies about 1844? iirc you mentioned a SDA minister, was that a "Seventh Day Adventist" minister?

Brian2 · May 24, 2021

Pete in Panama said:
thanks for coming back to me on this & I completely agree w/ u on being unimpressed w/ what came out of the research dept. thru the dept. of the secretariat. imho a lot of that stuff (& I'd bet they'd agree) is believable only by those that already believe anyway.

It seems to have been Shoghi Effendi and Abdul Baha who have done the interpreting of the Daniel 12 propecy however.

Pete in Panama said:
The idea of switching to the Islamic calendar is however (imho) not that far off the wall because we're piecing together 2300 years (Daniel 8:14) and "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" in Revelation 11:3 but also as times, time, and a half in Daniel 12:7) & trying to make sense out of it. Are u familiar w/ the prophesies about 1844? iirc you mentioned a SDA minister, was that a "Seventh Day Adventist" minister?

The idea of using a year for a day and using the Islamic calendar as a convenient starting point that sort of gets to preconceived places and seems to link the Bible with Baha'i has some advantage for Baha'i but if the starting point is arbitrary and if the year for a day idea is not the right way to go and if what the prophecy says does not fit with what Baha'i is telling us it should be saying and, and, and,,,,,,,,,,,,it is something that only a believer would accept I guess.
Yes the SDA minister was a Seventh Day Adventist. They it seems were part of what is called the Millerite movement in the 19th century which used a certain way to analyse Biblical prophecy and ended up coming up with 1844 as the time for the return of Jesus.
I have seen the Daniel 4 dream and interpretation that the Millerites used to get to 1844. Imo it did not work for them and was not a prophecy to be interpreted for the end times and the beginning point is also not given and so is arbitrary.

Pete in Panama · May 24, 2021

Brian2 said:
It seems to have been Shoghi Effendi and Abdul Baha who have done the interpreting of the Daniel 12 propecy however...

--and iirc the projected dates changed over time. A bit of caution seemed appropriate, not at all (imho) like the 1844 prophesy.

Brian2 said:
...The idea of using a year for a day and using the Islamic calendar as a convenient starting point that sort of gets to preconceived places and seems to link the Bible with Baha'i has some advantage for Baha'i...

The idea of a year for a day is all over the place (check out here) but most clearly we see the prophesy about Jesus being crucified in Daniel 9:24 w/ the "seventy weeks" ending w/ what many scholars say foretells the crucifixion of Christ ("shall Messiah be cut off" - Daniel 9:26). You don't seem impressed about 1844, are u in agreement /w the crucifixion prophesy?

Brian2 said:
...They it seems were part of what is called the Millerite movement in the 19th century which used a certain way to analyse Biblical prophecy and ended up coming up with 1844 as the time for the return of Jesus.
I have seen the Daniel 4 dream and interpretation that the Millerites used to get to 1844. Imo it did not work for them and was not a prophecy to be interpreted for the end times and the beginning point is also not given and so is arbitrary.

There were a lot of groups at the time that were convinced of the 1844 date, and William Miller himself never became an Adventist but rather he insisted that the 1844 date was right & there was something he was missing.

Brian2 · May 25, 2021

Pete in Panama said:
--and iirc the projected dates changed over time. A bit of caution seemed appropriate, not at all (imho) like the 1844 prophesy.

They do say Shoghi and Abdul and the IHJ are infallible about these things.
But what about the 1844 prophecy? Is that better?

Pete in Panama said:
The idea of a year for a day is all over the place (check out here) but most clearly we see the prophesy about Jesus being crucified in Daniel 9:24 w/ the "seventy weeks" ending w/ what many scholars say foretells the crucifixion of Christ ("shall Messiah be cut off" - Daniel 9:26). You don't seem impressed about 1844, are u in agreement /w the crucifixion prophesy?

The 70 weeks prophecy works when started at the right date. The part of it which is hard to understand is the half week at the end, which is seen as the time between Jesus and the death of Stephen.
The Jews of course have their own interpretation and that might also work but God is good at giving prophecies and a number of Messianic prophecies have more than one interpretation, one for then and one for the future, which probably fits better with the literal reading of the prophecy.

Pete in Panama said:
There were a lot of groups at the time that were convinced of the 1844 date, and William Miller himself never became an Adventist but rather he insisted that the 1844 date was right & there was something he was missing.

I think I was confused and am against the 7 year time of insanity of Nebuchadnezzar that the JWs use as a prophecy to get to 1914.
The 2300 days of Dan 8 is different and I am less familiar with it.
How do you interpret that prophecy?

Pete in Panama · May 25, 2021

Brian2 said:
They do say Shoghi and Abdul and the IHJ are infallible about these things...

Folks unfamiliar w/ math are kind of goofy w/ the word "infinity". They say "whoa no end, gosh!!". Other people who know something about infinity know that there are different levels of infinity & one can be far greater than the other. Same goes for "infallibility". We can get into that if u want.

Brian2 said:
...But what about the 1844 prophecy? Is that better? ...

imho it's a lot more straight forward & there's a lot more agreement about it, but even more so w/ the prophesy concerning Christ's crucifixion. Please let me know if u agree w/ it, I'm not trying to debate, I'm trying to find common ground to a build from.

Brian2 said:
...The 70 weeks prophecy works when started at the right date. The part of it which is hard to understand is the half week at the end, which is seen as the time between Jesus and the death of Stephen.

The Jews of course have their own interpretation and that might also work but God is good at giving prophecies and a number of Messianic prophecies have more than one interpretation, one for then and one for the future, which probably fits better with the literal reading of the prophecy...

Anyone can deny anything he wants. My thinking is that reality is what it is & it's our job to see it. I understand the reasoning and validity of Daniel's prophesy concerning Christ's crucifixion. What is your take, have you rejected it and don't want to talk about it? Are u interested in what I've found? Have you already accepted it as a factual fulfilled prophesy? Where are u?

Brian2 said:
...I think I was confused and am against the 7 year time of insanity of Nebuchadnezzar that the JWs use as a prophecy to get to 1914.
The 2300 days of Dan 8 is different and I am less familiar with it.
How do you interpret that prophecy?

What a lot of folks saw was that Chapters 8-12 of Daniel concerned a prophesy based on a dream Belshazzar had & Daniel interpreted the vision w/ the help of the angel Gabriel. This much is all there but it still depends on where you stand on this, so please tell me if you accept the prophesy about Christ's crucifixion and if you do then I can explain more easily how others came to 1844.

Brian2 · May 26, 2021

Pete in Panama said:
Folks unfamiliar w/ math are kind of goofy w/ the word "infinity". They say "whoa no end, gosh!!". Other people who know something about infinity know that there are different levels of infinity & one can be far greater than the other. Same goes for "infallibility". We can get into that if u want.

Infallible about all things and infallible about a certain area are easy distinctions to make.

Pete in Panama said:
Anyone can deny anything he wants. My thinking is that reality is what it is & it's our job to see it. I understand the reasoning and validity of Daniel's prophesy concerning Christ's crucifixion. What is your take, have you rejected it and don't want to talk about it? Are u interested in what I've found? Have you already accepted it as a factual fulfilled prophesy? Where are u?

I agree with the 70 week prophecy being fulfilled with Christ and His crucifixion etc. Apart from a fulfilment in what the Jews say it means I'm not sure of any other fulfilment. About the other prophecies you mention I only have a vague idea of them and what parts of them mean. If you want to say what you have found great, and how others came to 1844. I'm sure I must have seen it at some stage but cannot remember.

Pete in Panama · May 26, 2021

Brian2 said:
...I agree with the 70 week prophecy being fulfilled with Christ and His crucifixion...

Most Christians do also, and what's interesting is that the chapter it comes from seems to be a clarification from Gabriel in response to Daniel's query into the 2300 of Chapter 8.

The way it shapes up to most of us is that the 69-1/2 weeks of years to the crucifixion is the first part of the 2,300 "mornings and evenings" to "the time of the end". Assuming that Jesus was 31 years old when he was crucified, the 487 years should end there leaving (2,300 - 487) = 1813 years after 31 AD = 1844.

This math is not necessarily supposed to convince you but rather to explain why it was convincing to so many others. You can go over it yourself in Chapters 8 and 9 but my thinking was that anyone who accepts the 487 to the crucifixion is also accepting the year for a day plus the beginning of the 2300, and that's where I get on board w/ the 1844.

Brian2 · May 28, 2021

Pete in Panama said:
Most Christians do also, and what's interesting is that the chapter it comes from seems to be a clarification from Gabriel in response to Daniel's query into the 2300 of Chapter 8.

Ch 9 says Gabriel was the one Daniel had seen in his vision and who tried to give him understanding then in chapter 8, but this time Gabriel comes to give Daniel understanding concerning his prayer which was about the Jews returning to Jerusalem.
Also if the 2300 days of Ch 8 were going to follow the year for a day idea then I would think that they should start in the third year of Belshazzar when Daniel saw the vision of the ram and goat.
I'm not sure how the end of the 2300 would have anything to do with Baha'i since it says that then the sanctuary would be reconsecrated. (verse 14) presumable the sanctuary that was thrown down in verse 11.
To me that seems to mean that the Jews will be building another Temple and restarting the daily sacrifices and that new Temple will be thrown down (whatever that may mean) and reconsecrated at the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings.
I don't really know what the details of Daniel's vision mean. I can pick up bits and pieces here and there.

Marcion · May 28, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
Your answer is similar to what i have seen too, but i think there can be many answers to my OP looking forward to see what people will answer

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'debunking'.
By presenting certain aspects of your own teachings, you may be favouring a different vision from those that others have.
Indirectly that is a criticism of what the other persons see as the more likely viewpoint.

But when you start to actually explain why the other is supporting a faulty viewpoint, then you are in my opinion actively trying to debunk the other's viewpoint.

When it comes to spiritual philosophy I don't see anything wrong in that.
But when it comes to cosmology, your viewpoint is coming from a higher authority that may not be seen as valid to the other person. In that case you should be modest and just present it without making any claims to its superiority.

Trying to claim the superiority of a certain cosmology is I think quite typical for fundamentalist believers in the absolute authority of certain religious scriptures.

Spirit of Light · May 28, 2021

Marcion said:
I guess it depends on what you mean by 'debunking'.
By presenting certain aspects of your own teachings, you may be favouring a different vision from those that others have.
Indirectly that is a criticism of what the other persons see as the more likely viewpoint.

But when you start to actually explain why the other is supporting a faulty viewpoint, then you are in my opinion actively trying to debunk the other's viewpoint.

When it comes to spiritual philosophy I don't see anything wrong in that.
But when it comes to cosmology, your viewpoint is coming from a higher authority that may not be seen as valid to the other person. In that case you should be modest and just present it without making any claims to its superiority.

Trying to claim the superiority of a certain cosmology is I think quite typical for fundamentalist believers in the absolute authority of certain religious scriptures.

Since i started this OP i have learned so much so my current understanding of my own OP may no longer apply to what i was saying that time

But debunking was meant to be like, people who have different religious/spiritual belief or those who do not have belief in spiritual/religion trying to find ways to disprove others, or they flat out say it is a false belief.

My current understanding do not worry so much about this kind of questions

my mind is calm and relaxed about it

Muffled · May 28, 2021

Marcion said:
I guess it depends on what you mean by 'debunking'.
By presenting certain aspects of your own teachings, you may be favouring a different vision from those that others have.
Indirectly that is a criticism of what the other persons see as the more likely viewpoint.

But when you start to actually explain why the other is supporting a faulty viewpoint, then you are in my opinion actively trying to debunk the other's viewpoint.

When it comes to spiritual philosophy I don't see anything wrong in that.
But when it comes to cosmology, your viewpoint is coming from a higher authority that may not be seen as valid to the other person. In that case you should be modest and just present it without making any claims to its superiority.

Trying to claim the superiority of a certain cosmology is I think quite typical for fundamentalist believers in the absolute authority of certain religious scriptures.

I believe there is no higher authority than God. Let's face facts; everything else is second hand information and often not correct.

Pete in Panama · May 28, 2021

Brian2 said:
Ch 9 says Gabriel was the one Daniel had seen in his vision and who tried to give him understanding then in chapter 8, but this time Gabriel comes to give Daniel understanding concerning his prayer which was about the Jews returning to Jerusalem.
Also if the 2300 days of Ch 8 were going to follow the year for a day idea then I would think that they should start in the third year of Belshazzar when Daniel saw the vision of the ram and goat.
I'm not sure how the end of the 2300 would have anything to do with Baha'i since it says that then the sanctuary would be reconsecrated. (verse 14) presumable the sanctuary that was thrown down in verse 11.
To me that seems to mean that the Jews will be building another Temple and restarting the daily sacrifices and that new Temple will be thrown down (whatever that may mean) and reconsecrated at the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings.
I don't really know what the details of Daniel's vision mean. I can pick up bits and pieces here and there.

What I'm getting from your post is that you're expressing a firm conviction that this was a completely separate prophesy than that of Chapter 8 but that ur not sure of the details. Something else is your mentioning of whether the 2300 had "anything to do with Baha'i" & it makes me wonder if we could realign this.

My take is that rather than this being some kind of adversarial contest between the Baha'is & Christians, we need to see ourselves as Bible students teaming up together. It's an idea that Jesus had some difficulty explaining to Nicodemus about being born again, and my take on that is we've got to set aside all our precious sectarian alliances and focus on what's in the Scripture. OK, so we don't want to be wishy-washy so we can be honest and say "huh, at the moment this is looking like it points in that direction so let's see what else we can find elsewhere & see which direction the next scripture seems to point."

So please help me out here in Chapter 9. In the King James Version the words "Jews" and "return" are not there. The word "Jerusalem" is there in Verse 2 as "seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem" and somehow this looks to me like a reference to the desolation mentioned in Chapter 8. Now, am I missing something here, are we on common ground?

CG Didymus · May 31, 2021

Pete in Panama said:
Most Christians do also, and what's interesting is that the chapter it comes from seems to be a clarification from Gabriel in response to Daniel's query into the 2300 of Chapter 8.

The way it shapes up to most of us is that the 69-1/2 weeks of years to the crucifixion is the first part of the 2,300 "mornings and evenings" to "the time of the end". Assuming that Jesus was 31 years old when he was crucified, the 487 years should end there leaving (2,300 - 487) = 1813 years after 31 AD = 1844.

This math is not necessarily supposed to convince you but rather to explain why it was convincing to so many others. You can go over it yourself in Chapters 8 and 9 but my thinking was that anyone who accepts the 487 to the crucifixion is also accepting the year for a day plus the beginning of the 2300, and that's where I get on board w/ the 1844.

Daniel 8:3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4 I watched the ram as it charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against it, and none could rescue from its power. It did as it pleased and became great.

5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between its eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 It came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at it in great rage. 7 I saw it attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering its two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against it; the goat knocked it to the ground and trampled on it, and none could rescue the ram from its power. 8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

So... we've got the ram, then a goat. One horn of the goat breaks off and four horns grow. Out of one of them comes another horn. This horn takes away the daily sacrifice and the sanctuary is thrown down. Then the question is asked about how long for this vision about the daily sacrifice and the rebellion etc. to be fulfilled. The answer is that in 2300 mornings and evenings the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.

So if the sanctuary is thrown down, then why wouldn't it be 2300 mornings and evenings from that year that the sanctuary is reconsecrated? How do you connect the 487 years, and/or the 456-7BC when the decree went out to rebuild Jerusalem to this prophecy?

"Debunking" other people belief in different religious teachings.

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