• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What ONE critical piece of information made you decide to believe or disbelieve Jesus rose?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
As I explained, Jesus rose as a spirit, not as a man of flesh and blood. (1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Perter 3:18)

His ascending into the clouds meant that his de-materialization to spirit form, was not witnessed. And the man they saw after his resurrection was a man of "flesh and bone" not a man of "flesh and blood"....

Luke 24:37-39....after his resurrection Jesus appeared to his disciples....
"But because they were terrified and frightened, they imagined that they were seeing a spirit. 38 So he said to them: “Why are you troubled, and why have doubts come up in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you see that I have.”

He then asked for some food and ate it in front of them to demonstrate that he was in human form. But for the 40 days before he ascended to heaven, he did not stay with the 12 as he had done for the previous three and a half years....he only "appeared" to them....and in different bodies.

His blood was shed for mankind and once his mission was completed, the body he was given to sacrifice was taken by God, as it was prophesied that his flesh would not see corruption in the grave. (Acts 2:31; Psalm 16:10)

As was the case with Moses' body, no one knew where his remains were buried. Humans would have had a field day with Jesus' 'bits and pieces' as relic worship swept the Catholic world. Look at the adoration given to the "Shroud of Turin" despite the fact that it has been proven to be a fake....Christ was not even buried in a shroud and it is much older than the first century. A satanic trick perhaps? :shrug:
Thanks, that all makes sense, unlike what most Christians believe. But of course Jesus could "appear" in different bodies given that Jesus was no stranger to miracles.

Your post is a keeper so I am saving it for future debates in my GRAVES & RESURRECTION folder. :D
 

Dave Watchman

Active Member
I also KNOW that Jesus has risen, but I know that Jesus did not rise in a physical body, so Jesus could not return in a physical body. The spirit of Jesus ascended to heaven and His spirit returned from heaven, in like manner.

I'm pretty sure it's going to be physical.

Don't worry, you'll like it.

We don't know what we're going to be, but when He appears we will be like Him.

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.​

During the 40 days, Jesus ate and drank and let people touch Him.

And He's not going to drink the Passover wine again until He drinks it new with us in His Father's Kingdom.

Even the demoniacs would rather be put into a heard of swine, than to be disembodied spirits floating around.

“When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.”​

God did the big bang so that He could interact with us in the physical universe.

Peaceful Sabbath.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Jesus was no stranger to miracles.
One very interesting point to note was that Jesus and the disciples never performed miracles for their own benefit....it was always for the benefit of unbelievers who were present.

1 Timothy 5:23...Paul had the gifts of the spirit but he said this to Timothy...
"Do not drink water any longer, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent cases of sickness."

The miracles were a demonstration of what was to come under the rule of God's Kingdom.....curing the sick and raising the dead were the blessings that would undo all that those first rebels did to their children under the devil's influence. (1 John 3:8; Romans 5:12)

Revelation 21:3-4....is a foregleam of the future....
"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

This is speaking about humans on earth, not in heaven. This is the life God had originally purposed for mankind when he created our first parents.....no sin, no aging, no sickness, and no death....living forever in paradise on earth....but it was stolen from us by selfish rebels misusing their free will....Jesus came to get us back what we lost. Praise God for that!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I'm pretty sure it's going to be physical.

Don't worry, you'll like it.

We don't know what we're going to be, but when He appears we will be like Him.

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.​

During the 40 days, Jesus ate and drank and let people touch Him.

And He's not going to drink the Passover wine again until He drinks it new with us in His Father's Kingdom.

Even the demoniacs would rather be put into a heard of swine, than to be disembodied spirits floating around.

“When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.”​

God did the big bang so that He could interact with us in the physical universe.
I hope you understand that not all Christians are going to heaven? o_O
It was never part of God's original purpose for humans to go to heaven at all...they were designed for everlasting life right here in paradise on earth. God already had a large spiritual family in heaven who were created before we were.

There was a tree of life in the garden that guaranteed that the humans could live forever...but only if they were obedient. Death was only ever mentioned as a penalty for disobedience. After they disobeyed, God kicked them out of the garden and denied access to the tree of life, guaranteeing that they would die, just as he had said. (Genesis 3:22-24) Then he set about planning to send a Savior for the children who had not yet been born.

The Christian scriptures were written by, and for those who were chosen to rule with Christ in his Kingdom.
Revelation 20:6 says of the future...
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."

Read it carefully.....the "first resurrection" is for those who "will be" (not "are") "kings and priests" who will rule with Christ for 1,000 years. Since there is a "first resurrection" what about the the one to follow? (John 5:28-29)

Since there are no sinners in heaven, for whom will these ones be performing their priestly duties? And since they are all "kings", who will be their subjects?

What do you think the Kingdom is for?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm pretty sure it's going to be physical.

Don't worry, you'll like it.

We don't know what we're going to be, but when He appears we will be like Him.
The physical body of Jesus was not resurrected. When He died He was given a spiritual body that will never die. The same thing will happen to all of us.
Even the demoniacs would rather be put into a heard of swine, than to be disembodied spirits floating around.
I do not believe we will be disembodied sports floating around. I believe we will be given a spiritual body.

There are two different kinds of bodies, natural bodies (earthly bodies) and spiritual bodies (heavenly bodies), and the glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

When we die, our physical body dies and we are given a spiritual body that will never die. Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (heaven), which will last forever.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]


Read full chapter
 

alypius

Active Member
I could have said any of the above but the one critical piece of information that makes me doubt the resurrection is the fact that outside of a scant mention of "James, brother of Jesus who was called the Christ"--and that doesn't mention the resurrection at all--we have absolutely no mention of the name "Jesus Christ" ANYWHERE in the secular historical record until after Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman empire.

So there is Josephus's reference to Jesus outside of Christian writings?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I hope you understand that not all Christians are going to heaven? o_O
It was never part of God's original purpose for humans to go to heaven at all...they were designed for everlasting life right here in paradise on earth. God already had a large spiritual family in heaven who were created before we were.
I know that is what JWs believe but as you know, Baha'is do not believe that.
There was a tree of life in the garden that guaranteed that the humans could live forever...but only if they were obedient. Death was only ever mentioned as a penalty for disobedience. After they disobeyed, God kicked them out of the garden and denied access to the tree of life, guaranteeing that they would die, just as he had said. (Genesis 3:22-24) Then he set about planning to send a Savior for the children who had not yet been born.
There is a Christian belief abut the Tree of Life...

“In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)”
What is the Tree of Life?

And there is a Baha'i belief about the Tree of Life:

Baha’is believe that the tree of life is symbolic for the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His Manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the heavenly realm.
The Christian scriptures were written by, and for those who were chosen to rule with Christ in his Kingdom.
Revelation 20:6 says of the future...
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."

Read it carefully.....the "first resurrection" is for those who "will be" (not "are") "kings and priests" who will rule with Christ for 1,000 years. Since there is a "first resurrection" what about the the one to follow? (John 5:28-29)

Since there are no sinners in heaven, for whom will these ones be performing their priestly duties? And since they are all "kings", who will be their subjects?
This really is all a matter of how you interpret those verses. Why do you think that other Christians do not interpret those verses to mean the same things as you do?

Are you really going to bet your life on your interpretation a few verses? Not that it will matter because we will all end up where God has determined we will end up and we will find out where that is when we die. What if when you die you wake up in heaven and realize you are never coming back to earth, then what will you do?
What do you think the Kingdom is for?
The Kingdom of God on earth is for people who are living on earth and future generations of living people.
The Kingdom of God in heaven is for people who have dies and ascended to heaven, as Jesus did.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So there is Josephus's reference to Jesus outside of Christian writings?
Josephus only said that there were people that believed in Christians according to my recollection. You do realize that some of the Josephus quotes have been exposed as forged, don't you?
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
What language are you referring to? Why do you believe that the language used to describe resurrection is not supportive of an afterlife?
[Rom 6:4 NIV] 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

[1Pe 4:6 NIV] 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
Starting with prophets such as Jeremiah and Ezekiel, Israel is considered dead when he is in sin or in exile, and but he is brought back to life through repentance. This language appears again in the NT. You can see here Peter talking about preaching to the dead. He's not talking about physically dead people but lost people. Romans 6:4 bluntly states "We were buried with him through baptism into death..." There are some other similar usages which I used to gloss over but no longer. To me these mean what they say and are spoken with the understanding that you and I have read Isaiah and Ezekiel.

It is true that Christians are told to deny themselves, take up their cross, hate the works of the flesh and pray for peace on earth, good will towards all, and glory to God, and that is a darned good idea since there will be no flesh after people die and enter the spiritual world (heaven), so it is not going to benefit anyone to be attached to the things of the flesh.
We are told to deny ourselves, that we are vessels of clay, that we should spend all of our time working, studying, praying, singing, encouraging, that all of our lives we are to be running a race.

Why do you think that everything that people want to be in the afterlife for is works of the flesh? I do not believe there will be any more flesh after we die because we will be raised in spiritual bodies, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:40-54, and since there will be no physical bodies there will be no sex, no food or drink, and nothing that people now enjoy doing in a physical body. However that does not preclude people seeing their children and spouses or other family and friends in the spiritual world, and they will have spiritual bodies.
  • [Rom 8:5, 13 NIV] 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. ... 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
  • [1Co 15:50 NIV] 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
  • [Gal 5:17 NIV] 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

What makes us human is our soul, not our physical body, and our soul continues to live forever. All of who we are -- our personality -- will survive the resurrection, except the physical body. The death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another. When the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual realm of existence.
I think what makes us divine is our ability to decide right and wrong. I like this idea. It makes sense for separating us from animals. According to my reading of Genesis 9:6 the reason not to murder is that we are made in God's image, however what is it that makes us in God's image if not our conscience?

What is eternal life? When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God. The soul is eternal, the body perishes. That is why Jesus said: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life). Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225
Partially this has to do with deciding when something is conceptual or spiritual. In the time of Jesus the Greek Koine does not have the word 'Conceptual', so to express when something is conceptual they use the word breath or air using the Greek word 'Pneuma', the same word that is translated 'Spiritual'. Its as close to 'Conceptual' as their language allows. This is a problem sometimes. Things that are conceptual get translated as spiritual. It makes discussing this subject more difficult. Which person means conceptual and which means supernatural?

Ancient people are heroic just like people today. They're willing to lay down their lives if the cause is right and urgent, and they're willing to call this eternal glory. The Romans love this idea. Its in ancient poetry, too. The message is "Dying for the right cause is the best way to live!" Not everyone believes they're going to an actual afterlife. Its a nice idea, but many just want their actions to live on. A man is often willing to die to save his children, his village, his world. We are tiny, striving to be relevant. Saving others is a wonderful dream, the dream of the self sacrificing death, going out with a huge act of moral courage and generosity. Its a cool way to die.

Speaking of rewards what of injustice? Shouldn't evil always be repaid? It seems like it should; but is it? In my experience it isn't always repaid, and we can't go around endlessly revenging. If we did we'd all be dead in a short span. Sometimes we let offenses go for the sake of ending violence itself. We say that violence is the problem instead of killing the violent. When possible we say that our enemy is not each other but the violence that lives in us. We put violence to death. Similarly when Cain kills his brother Abel we are made to understand that it was sin in Cain which kills Abel. Cain is overwhelmed by sin within which takes over him, ruling him. His rage kills Abel. For this reason perhaps Cain is not put to death but is made to wander. So when does Abel ever get justice? His blood cries out against his brother Cain, but Cain is not put to death. So justice is not always repayment but is merely the end of harm.
 
Last edited:

Dave Watchman

Active Member
I hope you understand that not all Christians are going to heaven?

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.​

I guess the JW's think just 144,000 go to New Jerusalem.

I guess I think we ARE the 144,000.

The 144,000 thousand is symbolic language, 12X12, for ALL the tribes of Israel. The Israel of God.

144,000 = 100%. ALL the tribes of Israel.

This amounts to the judgement of the living prior to Christ's arrival, and our being gathered to Him.

These are not the same as the twelve tribes of Moses' day.

And the four angels can't even let it rip until ALL the servants of God are sealed.

And ALL are not even born yet.

We wait for our brothers and our fellow servants.

CN0Yrrn.jpg


It was never part of God's original purpose for humans to go to heaven at all...they were designed for everlasting life right here in paradise on earth. God already had a large spiritual family in heaven who were created before we were.

I agree.

But now things are changed.

Some of that Family got kicked out of heaven and there are now vacant rooms.

He went there to prepare a place for us.

Read it carefully.....the "first resurrection" is for those who "will be" (not "are") "kings and priests" who will rule with Christ for 1,000 years. Since there is a "first resurrection" what about the the one to follow? (John 5:28-29)

The one to follow is for the lost.

They are the dead that march across the broad plain of the earth.

They are only resurrected for Judgement day, and then to die the second death..

Dreadful sorry Clementine.

Since there are no sinners in heaven, for whom will these ones be performing their priestly duties? And since they are all "kings", who will be their subjects?

Don't worry, you'll like it.

Yes we will all be kings. Stay faithful and He will give you the Crown of life.

What do you think the Kingdom is for?

The thousand years, in New Jerusalem?

Earth is desolate.

Like the old bar tender said at closing time: "you might not have to go Home, but you can't stay here.

We do the Pauline phase of the judgement process.

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?​

It's the only time prior to the GWT judgement, that the saints are all alive again and in one room.

A big room. A physical room. Streets of gold, gates of pearl, walls of precious stone. 1500 miles square.

It's probably to have some say in with how many stripes each lost individual receives before they are annihilated.

“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.​

Peaceful Sabbath.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Revelation 21:3-4....is a foregleam of the future....
"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

This is speaking about humans on earth, not in heaven. This is the life God had originally purposed for mankind when he created our first parents.....no sin, no aging, no sickness, and no death....living forever in paradise on earth....but it was stolen from us by selfish rebels misusing their free will....Jesus came to get us back what we lost. Praise God for that!
I just noticed that I accidentally responded to your other post to Dave but in so doing I already covered what I believe about the Kingdom of God on earth. I believe those verses above are speaking about humans on earth after the Kingdom of God comes to earth; but the Kingdom will be for people who are living on earth when the Kingdom comes and for future generations of living people, not for people who were raised from their graves and brought back to life.

Where the verse says and death will be no more it means that spiritual death will be no more because everyone on earth will be spiritually alive since everyone will not only believe but they will know the one true God, as was prophesied in the Bible.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
 

Dave Watchman

Active Member
The physical body of Jesus was not resurrected. When He died He was given a spiritual body that will never die. The same thing will happen to all of us.

Then where do you think it went?

Did the disciples bribe the Roman guards?

eLkha4q.jpg


Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven.

That might mean we would be changed into a different kind of physical body that could transfigure to walk through solid walls.

Remember, we will drink the wine new with Jesus in His Father's Kingdom.

Gulp gulp burp.

Hiccup.

Peaceful Sabbath.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I'm looking for the ' evidence ' that the writers made it all up ? I've never come across these arguments in any serious debates . The most credible scholars agree that the writers believed what they wrote . Its beyond ridiculous to come up with the idea that the writers ' made it all up ' . This is the silliest argument to make and its always made by those who have never read the bible . The ones that claim they have read the bible, have the wackiest interpretations you will ever come across. Interpretations that are quite simply hilarious and you have to wonder about thier sanity . I believe the only sensible debate is whether the writers were mistaken in some way, or not . To say the narrative was made up , or embellished is nutty . For what reason? I've never heard a sensible reason for the ' corruption theories ever ! . Please share one ?

It is probable that the writers did believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, but scholars you mentioned also believe that the writers of the synoptic gospels were inspired by other documents they call QLM. It is in their own thoughts do they differ. So its not so easily conclusive that "they believed" as you say.

The fact remains none of the accounts were written by witnesses. And there were certain interpolations as well that existed about the resurrection or post crucifixion accounts.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Then where do you think it went?

Did the disciples bribe the Roman guards?
Nobody knows where the body of Jesus went but that is no kind of proof that Jesus rose from the dead.
That might mean we would be changed into a different kind of physical body that could transfigure to walk through solid walls.
I believe what Paul said. There are two different kinds of bodies.

--- For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
--- The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

Paul never talked about a third kind of hybrid body that is both physical and spiritual. Jesus never spoke of such a body either. That is a Christian belief but it is not based upon what the Bible actually says.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The physical body of Jesus was not resurrected. When He died He was given a spiritual body that will never die. The same thing will happen to all of us.
Well, the physical body of Jesus was sacrificed so that it could never be taken back, thereby cancelling out its sacrificial value.....but where do you get the idea that "the same thing will happen to all of us"? Who is "all of us even"? I think you are laboring under a misapprehension as to whom this scripture in 1 Corinthians 15 is referring to. He was not speaking about "all of us"...he was speaking about the "elect"...the "chosen ones".

I do not believe we will be disembodied sports floating around. I believe we will be given a spiritual body.
There are two resurrections spoken about in the Bible....one is the "first resurrection" mentioned in a couple of places......

Revelation 20:6....
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....
"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord".

This is indicating that at the return of Jesus, those who have died "in union with Christ" as his "chosen ones" are still "sleeping" in their graves.....these he said will be "resurrected first", with Christ descending from heaven to bring his anointed ones back to life....not in a physical body, because heaven cannot support flesh and blood.....these will be given spirit bodies like Christ himself was, and they are granted immortality because they have proven "faithful unto death". Only Christians qualify for this privilege. It is they who were taken into the "new covenant" on the night before Jesus' death. These are the only ones who go to heaven to bring us back to the paradise on earth that Adam lost fir his children. God has no intentions of taking everyone to heaven...he never has.

This scripture goes on to mention that those of "the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) "who survive to the coming of the Lord" will not need to sleep in their graves, but will attain an instantaneous resurrection, changed "in the twinkling of an eye" to join Christ's spiritual brotherhood in heaven.These have a specific role as "kings and priests" so there is no "floating around"....they have a job to do.

Revelation tells us that the chosen ones are a finite group, who number 144,000, all specifically chosen and sealed by God, who are seen standing on a heavenly Mt Zion. (Revelation 14:1-3) It also speaks of an unnumbered " great crowd" who also 'attribute salvation to God and the Lamb' (Revelation 7:9-10;13-14).....these the angel says "come out of the great tribulation" which occurs on earth. It is a time of the greatest tribulation in man's history, and God cuts those troubled days short or else "no flesh would be saved". (Matthew 24:21-22) But there will be survivors!

When we die, our physical body dies and we are given a spiritual body that will never die. Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (heaven), which will last forever.
You can't quote Paul in snatches without understanding all that he taught. Paul is not talking about you and me....he is speaking about the "elect"...I know I am not one of the chosen ones, and I am quite sure that no one from outside of Christianity will be either. Simply acknowledging Jesus as a prophet is not going to get you anywhere. You must be "in union with Christ"..."baptized into his death".

There are two different kinds of bodies, natural bodies (earthly bodies) and spiritual bodies (heavenly bodies), and the glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

I believe that this means something very different to what you think it does....
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
This is quite odd, really, because Satan as a devil is a Christian invention. He's literally not there, at all, no appearances made, until the Book of Matthew. Then in that moment he goes from thousands of years of being one of Yahweh's most powerful, loyal, and obedient angels to the ultimate bad guy who is the enemy of Jehovah. The devil as Satan simply never existed before Christianity.
Are you forgetting Job 1 and Job 2?

He is not portrayed as “one of Yahweh’s most....loyal and obedient angels.”

(He is powerful, alright....he’s got most of the world thinking he doesn’t even exist.)
 

Ruthexex

Servant of Jesus Christ
For myself, I could have said

* there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrection

* there is no empty tomb

* history doesn't record a single mention of ANY of the apostles, as if they never existed

* the 4 resurrection accounts are rife with inconsistencies

* the gospels were all written in Greek by anonymous writers 50 to 100 years after the fact

* the original gospels were never preserved

* the earliest full copies of the gospels date to 300 years after Christ's death

* if God had really wanted us to believe Jesus rose he would have given us irrefutable evidence that would completely eliminate all doubt, but he didn't

I could have said any of the above but the one critical piece of information that makes me doubt the resurrection is the fact that outside of a scant mention of "James, brother of Jesus who was called the Christ"--and that doesn't mention the resurrection at all--we have absolutely no mention of the name "Jesus Christ" ANYWHERE in the secular historical record until after Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman empire.

This is the one piece of information that convinces me Jesus never rose from the dead.

Great choice of topic. Please where are you getting your references from? Try searching the 5 deaths of Jesus the Jewish book Talmud. I’ll try to copy and past the link for you later. I do believe Jesus did die for our sins.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, the physical body of Jesus was sacrificed so that it could never be taken back, thereby cancelling out its sacrificial value.....but where do you get the idea that "the same thing will happen to all of us"? Who is "all of us even"? I think you are laboring under a misapprehension as to whom this scripture in 1 Corinthians 15 is referring to. He was not speaking about "all of us"...he was speaking about the "elect"...the "chosen ones".
The following is what I believe these verses mean. In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection.
That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected; brought back to life.

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: refers to rising from spiritual death, rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ, not to anyone rising from physical graves. Had the Cause of Christ not been brought back to life after three days, everyone would have remained in their sins and in spiritual death.

If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive
means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. It means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days so all were made alive... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins. People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected) after Jesus had died and the disciples lost all hope.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death refers to spiritual death because the physical body was never designed by God to live forever, and that is why it is subject to death and decomposition. However, the soul is immortal so it can never die. Those souls who believe in Jesus have eternal life (everlasting life) because they are near to God; other souls who are veiled from God continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies, but, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, they are nonexistent because they are separated from God.

Thus I believe that eternal life refers to a quality of life, gaining the rewards of the heaven, which are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God. Eternal life does not refer to continuance or duration of life, since all souls live forever in the spiritual world, although not all souls will have eternal life.
There are two resurrections spoken about in the Bible....one is the "first resurrection" mentioned in a couple of places......

Revelation 20:6....
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....
Your interpretations are duly noted but I am not going to attempt to try to interpret these verses because I am no Bible expert, so I would just be guessing what they mean based upon my own beliefs, and I do not want to superimpose my beliefs upon the Bible, unless I am fairly certain what it means, as with 1 Corinthians 15.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The " similarities to other dying rising gods" has been debunked over and over . But still persists on the internet never the less. //The Greek scholars who wrote the gospels// Evidence? any ? No this is just nonsense. Accepting the writers believed what they wrote but were mistaken in some way is the only credible argument. Everything else is radical nonsense.


It has never been debunked except by non-historian amateur apologists using google searches.

Richard Carrier details this in his peer-reviewed book and covers it briefly here:
Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier

He includes the original source material to demonstrate they are before Jesus. There are 6 known pre-Christian dying/rising savior Gods.
We also know the Persian prophet predicted a virgin born world savior would come to save humanity, the dead would resurrect at the end of the world, God had an demonic enemy who was against mankind and this was around 1500BC. The Israelites mergered these ideas into their theology during the 2nd temple period when the Persians occupied them. This is detailed by Mary Boyce in her work on Zoroastrianism and OT Professor Fransesca Stravapopolou for start. This is all standard knowledge in academia.

There is excellent evidence that a Greek/Jewish scholar wrote the gospel, it's full of mythic literary devices has parallels to Homer, is full of parables and is written like fiction.
Christian scholarship now acknowledges Mark is the source gospel:
The Synoptic Problem | Bible.org

So Mark is the one to examine.
Scholar D. Macdonald has an entire book on the evidence that Mark was using Homer as a source.
Carrier has an article with dozens of examples and shows 5 other peer-reviewd papers from historians that write about Mark's use of Paul to create his story.:
Mark's Use of Paul's Epistles • Richard Carrier

There is a blog article using Carrier's work that goes over the mythic nature of Mark and his use of other books like Psalms in the OT. An example:

"Only a few verses later, we read about the rest of the crucifixion narrative and find a link (a literary source) with the Book of Psalms in the Old Testament (OT):

Mark 15.24: “They part his garments among them, casting lots upon them.”

Psalm 22:18: “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon them.”

Mark 15.29-31: “And those who passed by blasphemed him, shaking their heads and saying, ‘…Save yourself…’ and mocked him, saying ‘He who saved others cannot save himself!’ ”

Psalm 22.7-8: “All those who see me mock me and give me lip, shaking their head, saying ‘He expected the lord to protect him, so let the lord save him if he likes.’ ”

Mark 15.34: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Psalm 22.1: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

On top of these links, Mark also appears to have used Psalm 69, Amos 8.9, and some elements of Isaiah 53, Zechariah 9-14, and Wisdom 2 as sources for his narratives. So we can see yet a few more elements of myth in the latter part of this Gospel, with Mark using other scriptural sources as needed for his story, whether to “fulfill” what he believed to be prophecy or for some other reason."

The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark





So to say there is "no evidence" or that this has been "debunked" is completely wrong. What it has been is hand waved off by apologists.
What's weird is the 1st century apologists and church fathers admitted Jesus was like all other savior gods but said he was the real one. Now it's pure denial?

Christian apologist Justin Martyr:

When we say…Jesus Christ…was produced without sexual union, and was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call Sons of God. [In fact]…if anybody objects that [Jesus] was crucified, this is in common with the sons of Zeus (as you call them) who suffered, as previously listed [he listed Dionysus, Hercules, and Asclepius]. Since their fatal sufferings are all narrated as not similar but different, so his unique passion should not seem to be any worse
 
Last edited:

John1.12

Free gift
It is probable that the writers did believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, but scholars you mentioned also believe that the writers of the synoptic gospels were inspired by other documents they call QLM. It is in their own thoughts do they differ. So its not so easily conclusive that "they believed" as you say.

The fact remains none of the accounts were written by witnesses. And there were certain interpolations as well that existed about the resurrection or post crucifixion accounts.
Yes people believe all manner of things about the bible, even ' scholars ' . This is demonstrated on this Forum ,with many weird and wonderful opinions . The way in which people think and view the world demonstrates how strong the mind can be when its thinking a certain way . I can see a lot of people believe ' scholars know best ' . They give up their sense making. There are as many ' scholars ' as opinions . Of course certain ones lean in a certain way .
 
Top