What ONE critical piece of information made you decide to believe or disbelieve Jesus rose?

adrian009 said:

The ascension of Jesus rising through the stratosphere to be with His Father in heaven ( outer space) relies on a redundant cosmology. Even allowing for a God who can perform miracles, this is a bridge too far for many reasonable people.

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Not to mention how can a physical body supposedly composed of flesh and bone (but no blood naturally ) inhabit a spiritual realm? The whole thing doesn't make a bit of sense.

savagewind said:

I am certain that God can do whatever God wants to do so a man like that would be very easy for God to bring back alive. Amen!

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Resurrection ~ A symbol of victory over death. victory over Sin. victory over Satan. Victory over the grave. Victory over Hell.

Jesus Christ lived, and breathed just like me and you did.

He loved all humans, and went through tremendous abuse by people who spit in Jesus Christ face, beat him in the face, bashed him on the head with a staff, put a crown of thorns on and humiliated and then eventually nailed to the Cross.

Yeshua/Jesus had died on the cross, and his body was taken and wrapped around with Linen Cloth, and laid in a burial tomb that was covered with a stone. When people came to the cave, realized he was gone and the cloth was folded and wrapped up. Eventually the disciples saw Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ resurrected ~ For paying for all the world's sin is now paid for ~ The Wrath of God is now paid for for all people / though the Wrath of God was still to be poured out the nation of Israel back then, for having fallen away from God, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Believe history plays apart of the word of God)

Jesus Christ is a symbol of understanding that even after we die; eternal life is still given by and through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and God ~ And you will be resurrected into as spiritual body and go be with God in the Kingdom of God after this life. (John 5:29 - Resurrection of all people unbelievers - believers)

Though ~ This all takes faith and it is one of the reasons why Christianity is interesting because of all of these things, and the resurrection is because of it. If Jesus Christ never resurrected from the dead, the world would not be like it is today... it would be x100 worse... far worse but that of course is my opinion, and these are my belief from what is generally gained from reading the bible.

~ My last message on the important of the Resurrection because Christianity and it's foundation is based on the tenants of Jesus Christ's life, death, burial, and resurrection. Which I believe is true.

You might not believe and that is okay. Please check the bible against anything being said here (1 Corinthians 15: is where you will find the death of our fleshly bodies and resurrection of spiritual bodies which are given by God.)

MatthewA said:

Resurrection ~ A symbol of victory over death. victory over Sin. victory over Satan. Victory over the grave. Victory over Hell.

Jesus Christ lived, and breathed just like me and you did.

He loved all humans, and went through tremendous abuse by people who spit in Jesus Christ face, beat him in the face, bashed him on the head with a staff, put a crown of thorns on and humiliated and then eventually nailed to the Cross.

Yeshua/Jesus had died on the cross, and his body was taken and wrapped around with Linen Cloth, and laid in a burial tomb that was covered with a stone. When people came to the cave, realized he was gone and the cloth was folded and wrapped up. Eventually the disciples saw Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ resurrected ~ For paying for all the world's sin is now paid for ~ The Wrath of God is now paid for for all people / though the Wrath of God was still to be poured out the nation of Israel back then, for having fallen away from God, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Believe history plays apart of the word of God)

Jesus Christ is a symbol of understanding that even after we die; eternal life is still given by and through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and God ~ And you will be resurrected into as spiritual body and go be with God in the Kingdom of God after this life.

Though ~ This all takes faith and it is one of the reasons why Christianity is interesting because of all of these things, and the resurrection is because of it. If Jesus Christ never resurrected from the dead, the world would not be like it is today... it would be x100 worse... far worse but that of course is my opinion, and these are my belief from what is generally gained from reading the bible.

~ My last message on the important of the Resurrection because Christianity and it's foundation is based on the tenants of Jesus Christ's life, death, burial, and resurrection. Which I believe is true.

You might not believe and that is okay. Please check the bible against anything being said here (1 Corinthians 15: is where you will find the death of our fleshly bodies and resurrection of spiritual bodies which are given by God.)

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Have you identified yourself as a Jehovah's Witness (that is, if you are!) or are you some other wonderful thing?

Unveiled Artist said:

Here's the context:
People are making themselves Messiahs by speaking in his name thereby being deceivers.

I had to look it up. I learned something new.



Maybe many, probably majority of people who speak for christ don't know they are making themselves Messiahs. Who knows.

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If you look at Luke it includes those who say the end is near. If we examine the two there are numerous contradictions (such as Jesus saying he is lord of the living and not of the dead, but Paul saying Jesus is lord of both the living and the dead). And this is not good, because Jesus gave stark warnings about changing or lessening the law or leading people astray.

MatthewA said:

You are right, there are some Apostles who were chosen, and they did not have any letters written, that had made it into the bible except those that happened to become woven into the bible and the 66 books that are contained with-in it.

You are saying that secular history never mentions any of the apostles.

Considering that maybe you disagree and you do not believe the bible, and that is okay.

Though I disagree with that statement of secular history never mentions any of the Apostles. (Many times in the Acts of the Apostles; (i haven't read it but a little) you can see where Paul or someone always has to end up going in front of the courts, and explain what he has been up to and been doing, which was spoken during the Matthew 24 ~ Mount olive discourse.?

From what Jesus Christ told his disciples, they were going die. (Matthew 16:24-28: However if they endured to the end they were going to be resurrected from the dead. ~ (The disciples were told by Jesus to (Matthew 28:20)) And believe that is what the Disciples had done, they went and preached the Gospel, and they were all killed for it, at the end of their life they were resurrected back from the dead like Jesus Christ.

There are other evidences as well that suggest Peter and Paul died in Rome. (But I may be wrong ~ and in fact probably am wrong.)

Do not believe me though, you might have to do some history searches and what you think about these things yourself.

Thank you for listening, if you do not believe it is okay.

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I have researched and researched some more the fate of the apostles in the secular record and have not been able to find anything.

In the Bible, Jesus Christ names 12 apostles to spread his gospel, and the early Christian church owes its rapid rise to their missionary zeal. Yet, for most of the Twelve, there's scant evidence of their existence outside of the New Testament.

These 12 Men Shaped Christianity—But Were They Real?

MatthewA said:

Resurrection ~ A symbol of victory over death. victory over Sin. victory over Satan. Victory over the grave. Victory over Hell.

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This is quite odd, really, because Satan as a devil is a Christian invention. He's literally not there, at all, no appearances made, until the Book of Matthew. Then in that moment he goes from thousands of years of being one of Yahweh's most powerful, loyal, and obedient angels to the ultimate bad guy who is the enemy of Jehovah. The devil as Satan simply never existed before Christianity.

Jose Fly said:

For me it's always been pretty simple.....none of it makes any sense. Why does a "god" have to commit suicide, then rise again, to save his own creation from his own rules?

Seems more like a variation of the primitive concept of blood sacrifice to me.

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That's because it is.

Shadow Wolf said:

This is quite odd, really, because Satan as a devil is a Christian invention. He's literally not there, at all, no appearances made, until the Book of Matthew. Then in that moment he goes from thousands of years of being one of Yahweh's most powerful, loyal, and obedient angels to the ultimate bad guy who is the enemy of Jehovah. The devil as Satan simply never existed before Christianity.

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Shadow Wolf;

Yes before Christ came ; considering Satan/Devil/Serpent was in the Garden of Eden at the very beginning of the bible, in which God told the Serpent He would eat dirt the rest of the days of his life (until his defeat) (Gen 3:14-15 and the fate of the Serpent) ~ When it comes to my belief ~ I believe that Satan has been defeated, and am talking about the one in the Christian Bible. ~ I only believe that Darkness remains in the world and spiritual darkness of people but not Satan or His Demons or Angels (They have been defeated according to the bible)~ _ the reason for these things is I believe the entire bible is completed.

Many people do not believe this, and they also have problems with this type of thinking. Which is alright. Thank you for sharing that viewpoint because people do believe that, and with agreeing with you believe that Satan was with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden ~ And Adam, Eve, had made mistakes and blamed each other even with Eve blaming the devil for her own actions. Adam pointing the finger at God saying well you gave me Eve! Also with Eve blaming the Serpent had beguiled her by lies.

And because of these things Adam, and Eve, and the Serpent were giving new purpose in life: (Genesis 3:13-17?) were sent out of the Garden of Eden and man could not have relationship with God like Adam and Eve had with God again until Jesus Christ had died and raised again according to scriptures Jesus came to restore the connection between man and God by paying the price of sin caused back in the Garden.

SeekingAllTruth said:

I have researched and researched some more the fate of the apostles in the secular record and have not been able to find anything.

In the Bible, Jesus Christ names 12 apostles to spread his gospel, and the early Christian church owes its rapid rise to their missionary zeal. Yet, for most of the Twelve, there's scant evidence of their existence outside of the New Testament.

These 12 Men Shaped Christianity—But Were They Real?

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Believe there is plenty of information to see if the 12 apostles were capable of doing anything. Thank you for your reply and your consideration, SeekingAllTruth.

Take care everyone.

Its only that the language used to describe resurrection is not supportive of an afterlife, and Christians are told to deny ourselves, take up our cross, hate the works of the flesh. The main prayer of a Christian is peace on earth, good will towards all, and glory to God. Basically everything that people want to be in the afterlife for are works of the flesh. Do you like cheese? That's a desire of the flesh. That won't be part of the resurrection. Do you have a wife? You won't at the resurrection. Do you like to daydream? You won't at the resurrection. Do you smile? That's of the flesh. You won't at the resurrection. Do you have children? You won't at the resurrection. Nothing human survives the resurrection...according to what I think that Jesus and Paul say. What is resurrected? Some sort of non-human divinity, not anything like a human. There's nothing desireable about an afterlife described in this way, except that you can do some good before you die.

Brickjectivity said:

Its only that the language used to describe resurrection is not supportive of an afterlife, and Christians are told to deny ourselves, take up our cross, hate the works of the flesh. The main prayer of a Christian is peace on earth, good will towards all, and glory to God. Basically everything that people want to be in the afterlife for are works of the flesh. Do you like cheese? That's a desire of the flesh. That won't be part of the resurrection. Do you have a wife? You won't at the resurrection. Do you like to daydream? You won't at the resurrection. Do you smile? That's of the flesh. You won't at the resurrection. Do you have children? You won't at the resurrection.

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What language are you referring to? Why do you believe that the language used to describe resurrection is not supportive of an afterlife?

It is true that Christians are told to deny themselves, take up their cross, hate the works of the flesh and pray for peace on earth, good will towards all, and glory to God, and that is a darned good idea since there will be no flesh after people die and enter the spiritual world (heaven), so it is not going to benefit anyone to be attached to the things of the flesh.

Why do you think that everything that people want to be in the afterlife for is works of the flesh? I do not believe there will be any more flesh after we die because we will be raised in spiritual bodies, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:40-54, and since there will be no physical bodies there will be no sex, no food or drink, and nothing that people now enjoy doing in a physical body. However that does not preclude people seeing their children and spouses or other family and friends in the spiritual world, and they will have spiritual bodies.

Brickjectivity said:

Nothing human survives the resurrection...according to what I think that Jesus and Paul say. What is resurrected? Some sort of non-human divinity, not anything like a human. There's nothing desireable about an afterlife described in this way, except that you can do some good before you die.

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What makes us human is our soul, not our physical body, and our soul continues to live forever. All of who we are -- our personality -- will survive the resurrection, except the physical body. The death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another. When the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual realm of existence.

What is eternal life? When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God. The soul is eternal, the body perishes. That is why Jesus said: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life). Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225

SeekingAllTruth said:

For myself, I could have said

* there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrection

* there is no empty tomb

* history doesn't record a single mention of ANY of the apostles, as if they never existed

* the 4 resurrection accounts are rife with inconsistencies

* the gospels were all written in Greek by anonymous writers 50 to 100 years after the fact

* the original gospels were never preserved

* the earliest full copies of the gospels date to 300 years after Christ's death

* if God had really wanted us to believe Jesus rose he would have given us irrefutable evidence that would completely eliminate all doubt, but he didn't

I could have said any of the above but the one critical piece of information that makes me doubt the resurrection is the fact that outside of a scant mention of "James, brother of Jesus who was called the Christ"--and that doesn't mention the resurrection at all--we have absolutely no mention of the name "Jesus Christ" ANYWHERE in the secular historical record until after Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman empire.

This is the one piece of information that convinces me Jesus never rose from the dead.

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It rather starts before that, with the proposition that the only way supernatural beings and events are known to exist is as purely conceptual / purely imaginary beings and events.

After that, the next question is whether there was a human Jesus, an historical Jesus, or not. The question arises for me because it's easy to demonstrate many examples where the gospel authors invent their scenes in order to move Jesus through what that author likes to think is a 'messianic prophecy' in the Tanakh; and if they can do that for a lot of the time, they can do it for the whole lot.

In the end there's no clincher either way ─ there may have been, there doesn't need to have been ... I keep an open mind on the question.

(If I was going to make the case for an historical Jesus, the place I'd start is with the tales, found in all four gospels, that Jesus was on fighting terms with his mother and his family, the only exception being John's crucifixion scene ─ Mark 3:31-35, Mark 6:4-5, Matthew 10:35-37, Luke 11:27. John 2:3, contrast John 19:26. The "criterion of embarrassment" from historical method would indicate that this sort of thing is unlikely to be invented.)

SeekingAllTruth said:

Not to mention how can a physical body supposedly composed of flesh and bone (but no blood naturally ) inhabit a spiritual realm? The whole thing doesn't make a bit of sense.

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It doesn’t make any sense and I’ve abandoned belief in a resurrected Jesus decades ago. Its a hugely important belief to Christians though many of whom are convinced its literally true. That is the nature of religious beliefs.

adrian009 said:

The ascension of Jesus rising through the stratosphere to be with His Father in heaven ( outer space) relies on a redundant cosmology. Even allowing for a God who can perform miracles, this is a bridge too far for many reasonable people.

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Where in the Bible does it infer that Jesus rose through the stratosphere to be with his Father in outer space? That sounds like a bad bit of science fiction, not to mention a complete misreading of the scriptures....and this is exactly what happens when you reject what it says in favor of your own take on things. You have a little "Jesus" in your belief system, but he is nothing like the Jesus of the Bible....your other prophet gets center stage and leaves Jesus almost completely out of the picture as the Savior who was sent into the world to save mankind.

If Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit" as Peter said (1 Peter 3:18) then Jesus was not flesh and blood when he rose from the dead. As a spirit being who could not take a human body to heaven, Jesus materialized human form as other spirit beings had already done in the past and recorded in the scriptures. (The three angels who visited Abraham, two of which were sent to get Lot out of Sodom before God destroyed it. Gabriel too materialized as a man to both Daniel and Mary)

It was forbidden to Jews to communicate with spirits, so angelic beings always materialized so that God's earthly servants could see and feel a physical presence. When their mission was finished they went back to where they came from. Jesus too went back to his former position at God's right hand, as "The Logos". (God's spokesman)

When Jesus ascended, it was a cloud that hid him from their vision as he dematerialized and went his way to that realm where God dwells....what he called "heaven". (Matthew 6:9; Acts 1:1-11) The angels that appeared to the apostles after Jesus had left, said that he would come again in the same "manner" as he left.....only his closest companions witnessed it....the world at large was unaware of it.

SeekingAllTruth said:

Not to mention how can a physical body supposedly composed of flesh and bone (but no blood naturally ) inhabit a spiritual realm? The whole thing doesn't make a bit of sense.

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It doesn't make any sense and that is because it is not true. There will be nothing 'physical' in the spiritual realm (heaven) so why would there be physical bodies? Paul said that we will be raised in a spiritual bodies (Corinthians 15:40-54) so why do Christians believe they will be raised in a physical body like Jesus had? Well, I think they believe that because they superimposed the resurrection stores in the gospels onto what Paul said, thinking that because Jesus had flesh and bone they too will have flesh and bone, but how can one have flesh without blood to support it? Imo, the whole belief is rather hokey.

Regarding the kind of body we will have in the spiritual world (heaven), Baha'is believe basically the same as what what Paul said in Corinthians 15:40-54, that we will have a spiritual body, a heavenly body.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

The Bible has to be studied holistically, and the Gospels are revealed by God in a way that they are truth revealed and light and speak eloquently in a way that are miraculous in nature just like the Torah and the Psalms are miraculous. The few mistakes and corruptions here and there, don't do away with the Bible.

Deeje said:

Where in the Bible does it infer that Jesus rose through the stratosphere to be with his Father in outer space? That sounds like a bad bit of science fiction, not to mention a complete misreading of the scriptures....

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I am glad to hear you know better than that but you must know where other Christians get that belief, good old Acts1:9-11.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Christians I know believe that the resurrected physical body of Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky to up to heaven, and the same physical body of Jesus will return from heaven in the clouds just as He went up -- in like manner.

So what do JWs believe those verses mean?

MatthewA said:

Resurrection ~ A symbol of victory over death. victory over Sin. victory over Satan. Victory over the grave. Victory over Hell.

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Imo, it would be fine if Christians could believe in the resurrection as a symbol of victory over death as opposed to a literal event. What I believe is that the resurrection represents victory over spiritual death thus conferring eternal life and of course that also means victory over hell.

SeekingAllTruth said:

For myself, I could have said

* there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrection

* there is no empty tomb

* history doesn't record a single mention of ANY of the apostles, as if they never existed

* the 4 resurrection accounts are rife with inconsistencies

* the gospels were all written in Greek by anonymous writers 50 to 100 years after the fact

* the original gospels were never preserved

* the earliest full copies of the gospels date to 300 years after Christ's death

* if God had really wanted us to believe Jesus rose he would have given us irrefutable evidence that would completely eliminate all doubt, but he didn't

I could have said any of the above but the one critical piece of information that makes me doubt the resurrection is the fact that outside of a scant mention of "James, brother of Jesus who was called the Christ"--and that doesn't mention the resurrection at all--we have absolutely no mention of the name "Jesus Christ" ANYWHERE in the secular historical record until after Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman empire.

This is the one piece of information that convinces me Jesus never rose from the dead.

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What ONE critical piece of information made you decide to believe or disbelieve Jesus rose?

It was the Book of the Cock.

No, it wasn't really the Book of the Cock. I'm joking.

I had to think of something to write.

I was born believing.

Maybe my mom went to church and I could hear the Gospel music while still in the womb.

But not believing in the resurrection would be like not believing in what the Bible has to say.

The historicity of the resurrection is unimpeachable.

The Old Time Jews knew what would happen, and were worried enough to have the Roman guards stationed at His tomb. They worried that His disciples might try to steal the body. If the bad guys could produce a body, there would not be any Christianity.


We wouldn't even be speculating on these events that happened 2000 years ago if they could have shown a body. Those Old Time stiff necked Jews would have paraded His body around all day Easter Sunday if they could have produced a cadaver. They would have done worse to Him than the Mexicans did to Arkansas Dave Rudabaugh.

I KNOW Jesus has risen. I'm sure that I know He is very near. I'm trying to figure out WHEN this same Jesus will return in like manner, as the men of Galilee had seen Him go.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Trailblazer said:

I am glad to hear you know better than that but you must know where other Christians get that belief, good old Acts1:9-11.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Christians I know believe that the resurrected physical body of Jesus ascended into the physical clouds in the sky to up to heaven, and the same physical body of Jesus will return from heaven in the clouds just as He went up -- in like manner.

So what do JWs believe those verses mean?

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As I explained, Jesus rose as a spirit, not as a man of flesh and blood. (1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Peter 3:18)

His ascending into the clouds meant that his de-materialization to spirit form, was not witnessed. And the man they saw after his resurrection was a man of "flesh and bone" not a man of "flesh and blood"....

Luke 24:37-39....after his resurrection Jesus appeared to his disciples....
"But because they were terrified and frightened, they imagined that they were seeing a spirit. 38 So he said to them: “Why are you troubled, and why have doubts come up in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you see that I have.”

He then asked for some food and ate it in front of them to demonstrate that he was in human form. But for the 40 days before he ascended to heaven, he did not stay with the 12 as he had done for the previous three and a half years....he only "appeared" to them....and in different bodies.

His blood was shed for mankind and once his mission was completed, the body he was given to sacrifice was taken by God, as it was prophesied that his flesh would not see corruption in the grave. (Acts 2:31; Psalm 16:10)

As was the case with Moses' body, no one knew where his remains were buried. Humans would have had a field day with Jesus' 'bits and pieces' as relic worship swept the Catholic world. Look at the adoration given to the "Shroud of Turin" despite the fact that it has been proven to be a fake....Christ was not even buried in a shroud and it is much younger than the first century. A satanic trick perhaps?

Dave Watchman said:

I KNOW Jesus has risen. I'm sure that I know He is very near. I'm trying to figure out WHEN this same Jesus will return in like manner, as the men of Galilee had seen Him go.

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I also KNOW that Jesus has risen, but I know that Jesus did not rise in a physical body, so Jesus could not return in a physical body.
The spirit of Jesus ascended to heaven and His spirit returned from heaven, in like manner.