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What ONE critical piece of information made you decide to believe or disbelieve Jesus rose?

SeekingAllTruth

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
For myself, I could have said

* there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrection

* there is no empty tomb

* history doesn't record a single mention of ANY of the apostles, as if they never existed

* the 4 resurrection accounts are rife with inconsistencies

* the gospels were all written in Greek by anonymous writers 50 to 100 years after the fact

* the original gospels were never preserved

* the earliest full copies of the gospels date to 300 years after Christ's death

* if God had really wanted us to believe Jesus rose he would have given us irrefutable evidence that would completely eliminate all doubt, but he didn't

I could have said any of the above but the one critical piece of information that makes me doubt the resurrection is the fact that outside of a scant mention of "James, brother of Jesus who was called the Christ"--and that doesn't mention the resurrection at all--we have absolutely no mention of the name "Jesus Christ" ANYWHERE in the secular historical record until after Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman empire.

This is the one piece of information that convinces me Jesus never rose from the dead.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
SeekingAllTruth said:
For myself, I could have said

* there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrection

* there is no empty tomb

* history doesn't record a single mention of ANY of the apostles, as if they never existed

* the 4 resurrection accounts are rife with inconsistencies

* the gospels were all written in Greek by anonymous writers 50 to 100 years after the fact

* the original gospels were never preserved

* the earliest full copies of the gospels date to 300 years after Christ's death

* if God had really wanted us to believe Jesus rose he would have given us irrefutable evidence that would completely eliminate all doubt, but he didn't

I could have said any of the above but the one critical piece of information that makes me doubt the resurrection is the fact that outside of a scant mention of "James, brother of Jesus who was called the Christ"--and that doesn't mention the resurrection at all--we have absolutely no mention of the name "Jesus Christ" ANYWHERE in the secular historical record until after Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman empire.

This is the one piece of information that convinces me Jesus never rose from the dead.
Click to expand...

If you mean his body? You can't defy the laws of physics only 2 some odd thousands years ago and then all of the sudden gravity works centuries since. To me, that's so close as if saying god can make someone fly two generations back but now we just fall on our hinny if we do try it.

If you mean spiritually, you'd have to define that.
 
MatthewA

MatthewA

Active Member
Interesting question ~ SeekingAllTruth

Haha, the name must have been Yeshua not Jesus. Or something.

The fact, that does it for me is the point of the Disciples of Yeshua Christ ~ After His resurrection His disciples continued onward preaching, and teaching about the return of the Lord, to those in the nation especially the 12 tribes of Israel.

All of His disciples were all killed afterwards because of this.

There are any things too: Information explaining His life, His Teachings, The Historical surrounding evidence, the Historical audience that is Ancient yes the information of the Ancient historical places were preserved in the bible.

According to the bible. You may not believe this and that is okay. The biggest part of why (I personally) made the choice to seek after Jesus Christ was because of a void in my heart, ~ so ended up reading the Gospels, and continued on studying (Shawn McCranney from Heart of the Matter was a teacher of mine, and also was Paul Washer he was also a teacher of mine before Shawn came along and helped me understand how to look and read the bible which is by reading what it is saying, and really thinking about what the bible is saying depending on the context.

Here is some information from 1 Corinthians 15: In 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, Paul gives a list of people to whom the risen Jesus appeared. These witnesses to the resurrected Jesus include the Apostle Peter, James the brother of Jesus, and, most intriguingly, a group of more than 500 people at the same time.

~ Thank you for your time to read my apologizes for the letter~
 
SeekingAllTruth

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
MatthewA said:
After His resurrection His disciples continued onward preaching, and teaching about the return of the Lord, to those in the nation especially the 12 tribes of Israel.

All of His disciples were all killed afterwards because of this.
Click to expand...
Even the Bible doesn't mention what 9 of the apostles did after Jesus' supposed ascension or how they died. Neither does secular history mention any of the apostles.

What textual proof do you use to prove these assertions that 9 of the apostles died martyrs?
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
As I was born into it, there was no critical information as to believing it. I just did.
And then not believing it, it wasn't one bit of information, but rather a bombardment of information from the world outside the church-cult that made leaving possible.. This included everything from the lack of opposition towards Christians and the general social approval and support towards them, learning many stories of the OT aren't original, and a critical reading of the Bible. I began to realize that as violent and barbaric as the OT is and with so many of the stories coming form those such as the Babylonians it became harder to defend and hold onto and rationalize and justify. And with OT in question, the entire point of a Messiah and even Jesus eventually came into question. Add some prophecies learned of he just didn't even remotely fail, and I came to reject the entirety of Christianity and all Abrahamic religions.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
MatthewA said:
Interesting question ~ SeekingAllTruth

Haha, the name must have been Yeshua not Jesus. Or something.

The fact, that does it for me is the point of the Disciples of Yeshua Christ ~ After His resurrection His disciples continued onward preaching, and teaching about the return of the Lord, to those in the nation especially the 12 tribes of Israel.

All of His disciples were all killed afterwards because of this.

There are any things too: Information explaining His life, His Teachings, The Historical surrounding evidence, the Historical audience that is Ancient yes the information of the Ancient historical places were preserved in the bible.

According to the bible. You may not believe this and that is okay. The biggest part of why (I personally) made the choice to seek after Jesus Christ was because of a void in my heart, ~ so ended up reading the Gospels, and continued on studying (Shawn McCranney from Heart of the Matter was a teacher of mine, and also was Paul Washer he was also a teacher of mine before Shawn came along and helped me understand how to look and read the bible which is by reading what it is saying, and really thinking about what the bible is saying depending on the context.

Here is some information from 1 Corinthians 15: In 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, Paul gives a list of people to whom the risen Jesus appeared. These witnesses to the resurrected Jesus include the Apostle Peter, James the brother of Jesus, and, most intriguingly, a group of more than 500 people at the same time.

~ Thank you for your time to read my apologizes for the letter~
Click to expand...
Jesus also said those who come after him and claim to speak in his name are deceivers and false prophets.
 
MatthewA

MatthewA

Active Member
SeekingAllTruth said:
Even the Bible doesn't mention what 9 of the apostles did after Jesus' supposed ascension or how they died. Neither does secular history mention any of the apostles.

What textual proof do you use to prove these assertions that 9 of the apostles died martyrs?
Click to expand...

You are right, there are some Apostles who were chosen, and they did not have any letters written, that had made it into the bible except those that happened to become woven into the bible and the 66 books that are contained with-in it.

You are saying that secular history never mentions any of the apostles.

Considering that maybe you disagree and you do not believe the bible, and that is okay.

Though I disagree with that statement of secular history never mentions any of the Apostles. (Many times in the Acts of the Apostles; (i haven't read it but a little) you can see where Paul or someone always has to end up going in front of the courts, and explain what he has been up to and been doing, which was spoken during the Matthew 24 ~ Mount olive discourse.?

From what Jesus Christ told his disciples, they were going die. (Matthew 16:24-28: However if they endured to the end they were going to be resurrected from the dead. ~ (The disciples were told by Jesus to (Matthew 28:20)) And believe that is what the Disciples had done, they went and preached the Gospel, and they were all killed for it, at the end of their life they were resurrected back from the dead like Jesus Christ.

There are other evidences as well that suggest Peter and Paul died in Rome. (But I may be wrong ~ and in fact probably am wrong.)

Do not believe me though, you might have to do some history searches and what you think about these things yourself.

Thank you for listening, if you do not believe it is okay.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
SeekingAllTruth said:
* if God had really wanted us to believe Jesus rose he would have given us irrefutable evidence that would completely eliminate all doubt, but he didn't
Click to expand...
Your points are all good but this is the best of all your points. :D

To this I say that God does not want is to believe that Jesus rose, because Jesus did not rise, and that is why there is no 'real evidence' that Jesus rose, only stories written by men. Anyone can write a story and make it sound real, that's what storytelling is all about.
 
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J

John1.12

Free gift
SeekingAllTruth said:
For myself, I could have said

* there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrection

* there is no empty tomb

* history doesn't record a single mention of ANY of the apostles, as if they never existed

* the 4 resurrection accounts are rife with inconsistencies

* the gospels were all written in Greek by anonymous writers 50 to 100 years after the fact

* the original gospels were never preserved

* the earliest full copies of the gospels date to 300 years after Christ's death

* if God had really wanted us to believe Jesus rose he would have given us irrefutable evidence that would completely eliminate all doubt, but he didn't

I could have said any of the above but the one critical piece of information that makes me doubt the resurrection is the fact that outside of a scant mention of "James, brother of Jesus who was called the Christ"--and that doesn't mention the resurrection at all--we have absolutely no mention of the name "Jesus Christ" ANYWHERE in the secular historical record until after Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman empire.

This is the one piece of information that convinces me Jesus never rose from the dead.
Click to expand...
//there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrection// So why did the writers make it up ?
 
J

John1.12

Free gift
SeekingAllTruth said:
For myself, I could have said

* there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrection

* there is no empty tomb

* history doesn't record a single mention of ANY of the apostles, as if they never existed

* the 4 resurrection accounts are rife with inconsistencies

* the gospels were all written in Greek by anonymous writers 50 to 100 years after the fact

* the original gospels were never preserved

* the earliest full copies of the gospels date to 300 years after Christ's death

* if God had really wanted us to believe Jesus rose he would have given us irrefutable evidence that would completely eliminate all doubt, but he didn't

I could have said any of the above but the one critical piece of information that makes me doubt the resurrection is the fact that outside of a scant mention of "James, brother of Jesus who was called the Christ"--and that doesn't mention the resurrection at all--we have absolutely no mention of the name "Jesus Christ" ANYWHERE in the secular historical record until after Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman empire.

This is the one piece of information that convinces me Jesus never rose from the dead.
Click to expand...
I'm looking for the ' evidence ' that the writers made it all up ? I've never come across these arguments in any serious debates . The most credible scholars agree that the writers believed what they wrote . Its beyond ridiculous to come up with the idea that the writers ' made it all up ' . This is the silliest argument to make and its always made by those who have never read the bible . The ones that claim they have read the bible, have the wackiest interpretations you will ever come across. Interpretations that are quite simply hilarious and you have to wonder about thier sanity . I believe the only sensible debate is whether the writers were mistaken in some way, or not . To say the narrative was made up , or embellished is nutty . For what reason? I've never heard a sensible reason for the ' corruption theories ever ! . Please share one ?
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Jesus also said those who come after him and claim to speak in his name are deceivers and false prophets.
Click to expand...
As Jesus prophesied, the false prophets contrived to change the essential meaning of the Gospel so that it became quite different from that which the Bible recorded or Jesus taught. Matt. Vii 15-23 and see pp. 11, 12.

Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

From: Christ and Baha'u'llah

1 God's Call to the Christians . . . . . . . . . .11
2 The Kingdom in the Bible . . . . . . . . . .. .14
3 Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom . . 20
4 The False Prophets . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Jesus also said those who come after him and claim to speak in his name are deceivers and false prophets.
Click to expand...

Here's the context:
People are making themselves Messiahs by speaking in his name thereby being deceivers.

I had to look it up. I learned something new.

Matthew 24:3-8 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" 4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah,' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Click to expand...

Maybe many, probably majority of people who speak for christ don't know they are making themselves Messiahs. Who knows.
 
J

John1.12

Free gift
Trailblazer said:
Nobody really knows.
Click to expand...
The best evidence is that they didn't..There is no evidence that they did. The ONLY reason people say its made up is not because there's a problem with the text/ narrative but its because of the miracles in the narrative. You will not be convinced by the narrative if your not convinced Jesus did miracles. Its quite funny when people point to ' Scholars ' to try to claim the bible isn't true. But ask these Scholars if they believe in anything supernatural ? If you read the bible whilst at the same time believe that we just evolved from pond slime , from Nothing to Goo to you via the zoo, then you will not read the bible with any sense of credibility. You will not believe that Jesus walked on water or that he rose from the dead .
 
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Dawnofhope

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The ascension of Jesus rising through the stratosphere to be with His Father in heaven ( outer space) relies on a redundant cosmology. Even allowing for a God who can perform miracles, this is a bridge too far for many reasonable people.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sorry to veer off the question in the OP, but what I do not understand is why it matters if Jesus rose or not.
I just cannot figure out why it would matter one way or another. :confused:
What would it prove even if we could prove that he rose from the dead, how would that help anyone at all?

Sorry if I offend some people, but I think the whole idea of the resurrection is completely superfluous and whether Jesus rose or not does not matter one iota. All that really matter are the teachings of Jesus and the cross sacrifice.
 
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