Which one is a Cult? A or B?

Bro Rando · May 14, 2021

Read (John 3:16)

If Jesus is Firstborn of All Creation that means he was firstbegotten. It means he was created, made to exist or brought forth as though with labor pains.

FIRST-BEGOTTEN

furst-be-got'-'-n (prototokos):

This Greek word is translated in two passages in the King James Version by "first-begotten" (Hebrews 1:6 Revelation 1:5), but in all other places in the King James Version, and always in the Revised Version (British and American), by "firstborn." It is used in its natural literal sense of Jesus Christ as Mary's firstborn (Luke 2:7 Matthew 1:25 the King James Version); it also bears the literal sense of the firstborn of the firstborn of men and animals (Hebrews 11:28).

Would you like a few more scriptures?

Bro Rando · May 14, 2021

Barry Johnson said:
16For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before ALL THINGS , and by him ALL THINGS consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Yes, but did Jesus Christ create himself or was he begotten by someone else Before him??

John1.12 · May 14, 2021

Bro Rando said:
Yes, but did Jesus Christ create himself or was he begotten by someone else Before him??

Create himself ? Is that a serious question? And you avoided my questions ??

John1.12 · May 14, 2021

Bro Rando said:
Read (John 3:16)

If Jesus is Firstborn of All Creation that means he was firstbegotten. It means he was created, made to exist or brought forth as though with labor pains.

FIRST-BEGOTTEN

furst-be-got'-'-n (prototokos):

This Greek word is translated in two passages in the King James Version by "first-begotten" (Hebrews 1:6 Revelation 1:5), but in all other places in the King James Version, and always in the Revised Version (British and American), by "firstborn." It is used in its natural literal sense of Jesus Christ as Mary's firstborn (Luke 2:7 Matthew 1:25 the King James Version); it also bears the literal sense of the firstborn of the firstborn of men and animals (Hebrews 11:28).

Would you like a few more scriptures?

Ephraim is called the firstborn, but he was the SECOND one born!

John1.12 · May 14, 2021

Bro Rando said:
Read (John 3:16)

If Jesus is Firstborn of All Creation that means he was firstbegotten. It means he was created, made to exist or brought forth as though with labor pains.

FIRST-BEGOTTEN

furst-be-got'-'-n (prototokos):

This Greek word is translated in two passages in the King James Version by "first-begotten" (Hebrews 1:6 Revelation 1:5), but in all other places in the King James Version, and always in the Revised Version (British and American), by "firstborn." It is used in its natural literal sense of Jesus Christ as Mary's firstborn (Luke 2:7 Matthew 1:25 the King James Version); it also bears the literal sense of the firstborn of the firstborn of men and animals (Hebrews 11:28).

Would you like a few more scriptures?

The phrase “firstborn of all creation” is not dealing with time, but status and position. It does not mean that Jesus is the first created thing. It means that Jesus is the one who is preeminent, the most important

John1.12 · May 14, 2021

Bro Rando said:
Read (John 3:16)

If Jesus is Firstborn of All Creation that means he was firstbegotten. It means he was created, made to exist or brought forth as though with labor pains.

FIRST-BEGOTTEN

furst-be-got'-'-n (prototokos):

This Greek word is translated in two passages in the King James Version by "first-begotten" (Hebrews 1:6 Revelation 1:5), but in all other places in the King James Version, and always in the Revised Version (British and American), by "firstborn." It is used in its natural literal sense of Jesus Christ as Mary's firstborn (Luke 2:7 Matthew 1:25 the King James Version); it also bears the literal sense of the firstborn of the firstborn of men and animals (Hebrews 11:28).

Would you like a few more scriptures?

context determines meaning and we cannot say that firstborn always means first created; that is, as would be understood in the context of literal birth.

Firstborn is transferrable
The term firstborn is a title of preeminence that is also transferable. Please consider the following…

I have found David My servant. With My holy oil I have anointed him, 21 with whom My hand will be established. My arm also will strengthen him. 22 The enemy will not deceive him, nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 But I shall crush his adversaries before him, and strike those who hate him. 24 My faithfulness and My lovingkindness will be with him, and in My name his horn will be exalted. 25 I shall also set his hand on the sea and his right hand on the rivers. 26 He will cry to Me, “You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.” 27 I also shall make him My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth, (Psalm 89:20-27).

David was not the firstborn of his family. In fact, he was the last one born. We can see in this section of Scripture that David is called the firstborn, “the highest of the kings of the earth.” It’s clearly a title of preeminence.

“And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father’s house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction,” (Genesis 41:51-52)
Jer. 31:9, ” . . . for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn,“ (Jeremiah 31:9).

We can see that the firstborn title was transferred from Manasseh to Ephraim. Clearly, the term “firstborn” does not necessitate the first one created or the first one born. Context always determines meaning, and when the Bible says Jesus is the firstborn of all creation it is talking about his preeminence, his position of authority and superiority over it. Again, we know this is the case because the very next verse in Colossians, v. 16, says that he is the creator of all things. Furthermore, when we combine this with a verse in Isaiah we have something most interesting.

“Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,'” (Isaiah 44:24).

Since the LORD (YHWH) is the one who formed all things by himself, alone, and we see that Jesus is also the creator of all things, then we must conclude that Jesus is God in flesh, creator of all things. He is the firstborn of all creation. He is not the first created thing.

Bro Rando · May 14, 2021

Barry Johnson said:
Create himself ? Is that a serious question? And you avoided my questions ??

I gave you the Answer through a question. Jesus said to them: “I will ask you one question. Answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things." (Mark 11:29)

So they answered Jesus: “We do not know.” Jesus said to them: “Neither am I telling you by what authority I do these things.” (Mark 11:33)

Rejecting Jesus testimony at (John 3:16) does not beget Salvation. Why not make Jesus your Lord and Savior today?

John1.12 · May 14, 2021

Bro Rando said:
I gave you the Answer through a question. Jesus said to them: “I will ask you one question. Answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things." (Mark 11:29)

So they answered Jesus: “We do not know.” Jesus said to them: “Neither am I telling you by what authority I do these things.” (Mark 11:33)

Rejecting Jesus testimony at (John 3:16) does not beget Salvation. Why not make Jesus your Lord and Savior today?

He also spoke plainly and answered directly .

John1.12 · May 14, 2021

Bro Rando said:
Yes, but did Jesus Christ create himself or was he begotten by someone else Before him??

The bible says Jesus created ALL things. The creator IS the creator not created. This is too simple to expound on further .
Let's look together again :

16 For by him WERE ALL THINGS CREATED , that are in heaven , and that are in Earth , visible and invisible whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL !! THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM :

17AND HE IS BEFORE !! ALL !!!!! THINGS AND BY HIM ! ALL!!!!!!! THINGS CONSIST .
its as if God knew there would be false teachers that would seek to teach that Jesus was a created being ,and included these verses to destroy that daft idea .

Bro Rando · May 14, 2021

Barry Johnson said:
The phrase “firstborn of all creation” is not dealing with time, but status and position. It does not mean that Jesus is the first created thing. It means that Jesus is the one who is preeminent, the most important

Sure it is dealing with time. Doesn't the scripture include the word ALL?
“firstborn of all creation”

Yes, I agree. It means that Jesus is the one who is preeminent, the most important. In the the Beginning was what?? "In the Beginning was the Word" (John 1:1) WHEN? In the Beginning, Jesus was brought forth as with Labor Pangs. (Begotten from someone else who already existed.) The is why feminine nouns are used in describing Jesus Christ. Yes he is the Son of God. But the feminine nouns are used to show he was 'brought forth' from nothing.

The use of a feminine nouns emphasis the fact that the Word was created. When? "In the Beginning was the Word" (John 1:1) Words such as godlike, divinity, or deity are all in the feminine sense.

Strong's Concordance:
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Short Definition: ruler, beginning
Definition: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

HELPS Word-studies 746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e."the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

Jesus is preeminent is he not? "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" (Colossians 1:15)

Strong's Concordance
ktisis: creation (the act or the product)
Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ktisis
Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)
Short Definition: creation, creature, institution
Definition: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

HELPS Word-studies Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing

These feminine nouns actually Describe Jesus Divine Nature, His Deity...

Two more:
Strong's Concordance
theotés: deity
Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: theotés
Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)
Short Definition: deity, Godhead
Definition: deity, Godhead.

Jehovah' Witnesses certainly do believe in the Deity of Christ. The Godhead is a divine arrangement of authority given to others. (Jesus, Paul, Moses) "Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." (Matthew 28:18)

So to be consistent (theos) was also used to show his divinity of being a Divine Creation from the Father.
Strong's Concordance
theos: God, a god
Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Short Definition: God, a god
Definition: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.

Read more...

John1.12 · May 14, 2021

Bro Rando said:
Sure it is dealing with time. Doesn't the scripture include the word ALL?
“firstborn of all creation”

Yes, I agree. It means that Jesus is the one who is preeminent, the most important. In the the Beginning was what?? "In the Beginning was the Word" (John 1:1) WHEN? In the Beginning, Jesus was brought forth as with Labor Pangs. (Begotten from someone else who already existed.) The is why feminine nouns are used in describing Jesus Christ. Yes he is the Son of God. But the feminine nouns are used to show he was 'brought forth' from nothing.

The use of a feminine nouns emphasis the fact that the Word was created. When? "In the Beginning was the Word" (John 1:1) Words such as godlike, divinity, or deity are all in the feminine sense.

Strong's Concordance:
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Short Definition: ruler, beginning
Definition: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

HELPS Word-studies 746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e."the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

Jesus is preeminent is he not? "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" (Colossians 1:15)

Strong's Concordance
ktisis: creation (the act or the product)
Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ktisis
Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)
Short Definition: creation, creature, institution
Definition: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

HELPS Word-studies Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing

These feminine nouns actually Describe Jesus Divine Nature, His Deity...

Two more:
Strong's Concordance
theotés: deity
Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: theotés
Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)
Short Definition: deity, Godhead
Definition: deity, Godhead.

Jehovah' Witnesses certainly do believe in the Deity of Christ. The Godhead is a divine arrangement of authority given to others. (Jesus, Paul, Moses) "Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." (Matthew 28:18)

So to be consistent (theos) was also used to show his divinity of being a Divine Creation from the Father.
Strong's Concordance
theos: God, a god
Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Short Definition: God, a god
Definition: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.

Read more...

Why have you left the text ? I thought we were discussing Col 1 ?

Bro Rando · May 14, 2021

Barry Johnson said:
Why have you left the text ? I thought we were discussing Col 1 ?

Which one do you wish to delete? Don't they all give witness to Firstborn of All Creation?

Since Jesus was Begotten, then he was Begotten by Someone who Already Existed.

In the Beginning was the Word
Firstborn of All Creation

John1.12 · May 14, 2021

Bro Rando said:
Which one do you wish to delete? Don't they all give witness to Firstborn of All Creation?

Since Jesus was Begotten, then he was Begotten by Someone who Already Existed.

In the Beginning was the Word

Firstborn of All Creation

Col 1

John1.12 · May 14, 2021

Bro Rando said:
Which one do you wish to delete? Don't they all give witness to Firstborn of All Creation?

Since Jesus was Begotten, then he was Begotten by Someone who Already Existed.

In the Beginning was the Word

Firstborn of All Creation

Let's discuss Colossians 1 .

Bro Rando · May 14, 2021

Please stay on topic
This forum started out with:

Which one is a Cult? A or B?

'Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.' (1 Corinthians 15:24)

A. Trinitarians Claim that God hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father
B. Christians Claim Jesus hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father

Brian2 · May 15, 2021

Bro Rando said:
At least your beginning to use scripture and I am thankful for that.
John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves those born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments.…

Notice Jesus Christ has been born of GOD not that he is God. Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

God has No Brothers as trinitarians claim....

1John 5:1 says nothing about whether Jesus has brothers. Trinitarians do not claim Jesus has no brothers. Isn't it the JWs who claim Jesus has only 144000 brothers and the Trinitarians may have varying opinions but would say that they are as numerous as the grains of sand on the sea shore.

Brian2 · May 15, 2021

Bro Rando said:
Read (John 3:16)

If Jesus is Firstborn of All Creation that means he was firstbegotten. It means he was created, made to exist or brought forth as though with labor pains.

FIRST-BEGOTTEN

furst-be-got'-'-n (prototokos):

This Greek word is translated in two passages in the King James Version by "first-begotten" (Hebrews 1:6 Revelation 1:5), but in all other places in the King James Version, and always in the Revised Version (British and American), by "firstborn." It is used in its natural literal sense of Jesus Christ as Mary's firstborn (Luke 2:7 Matthew 1:25 the King James Version); it also bears the literal sense of the firstborn of the firstborn of men and animals (Hebrews 11:28).

Would you like a few more scriptures?

I'm not sure whom you are replying to,,,,,,,,,,,,but tell me what you think about John 1:3.

John1.12 · May 15, 2021

Bro Rando said:
Read (John 3:16)

If Jesus is Firstborn of All Creation that means he was firstbegotten. It means he was created, made to exist or brought forth as though with labor pains.

FIRST-BEGOTTEN

furst-be-got'-'-n (prototokos):

This Greek word is translated in two passages in the King James Version by "first-begotten" (Hebrews 1:6 Revelation 1:5), but in all other places in the King James Version, and always in the Revised Version (British and American), by "firstborn." It is used in its natural literal sense of Jesus Christ as Mary's firstborn (Luke 2:7 Matthew 1:25 the King James Version); it also bears the literal sense of the firstborn of the firstborn of men and animals (Hebrews 11:28).

Would you like a few more scriptures?

//If Jesus is Firstborn of All Creation// Do you mean literally ? As in a mother Goddess birthed micheal the Arch angel ?

Bro Rando · May 19, 2021

Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.' (John 20:17)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3)

Bro Rando said:
Please stay on topic
This forum started out with:

Which one is a Cult? A or B?

'Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.' (1 Corinthians 15:24)

A. Trinitarians Claim that God hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father
B. Christians Claim Jesus hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father

Brian2 · May 19, 2021

Bro Rando said:
Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.' (John 20:17)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3)

We answer you posts and you avoid answering ours and go on posting JW doctrine.
That is the aim no doubt and seems to be the way of JWs.
Biblical teaching is that Jesus is a man now. I can use scriptures such as the one below to show that and the fact that the man Jesus came back to life as a man in the Gospel stories.
Acts 17: 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”
You do realise that men have a God I suppose but no JW wants to say anything about when the Father of Jesus became His God. That is pointed out to us in the scriptures at Psalm 22:10.
Psalm 22:10 From birth I was cast upon You; from my mother’s womb You have been my God.

Which one is a Cult? A or B?

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