"Debunking" other people belief in different religious teachings.

Brian2 said:

...the teachings of Baha'u'llah and Baha'i concerning the Bible and Jesus...

Click to expand...

What I can say is I'm familiar w/ a bunch of what Baha'u'llah wrote (and interested me) if that's what u mean, was there something that didn't make sense to u or something you understood to disagree w/ the Bible?

Please bear in mind that I am not the Baha'i religion, but I can tell you what my take was & u can see if it fits w/ u maybe.

Brian2 said:

No I was just having a dig at a JWs attack on what they call Christendom.
As a younger person I was drawn to fighting the attacks on the Bible by JWs and others. It has expanded a bit over time. I prefer to show people the message of the Bible but in a forum like this especially that involves defending the Bible and showing how the other person's beliefs contradict the Bible, if they actually say they believe the Bible.
I have found that this is not very profitable in gaining converts but hope that a seed is sown along the way in people's thinking.
It never ceases to amaze me how people can deny plain sentences in the Bible and say they believe the Bible. Sometimes they prefer to believe what their teachers tell them about the Bible even if it means that they are contradicting the Bible. People get enmeshed in various groups and their own beliefs also and hate to change their ideas even if those ideas are shown to be wrong.
Sometimes I think I should just go out and dig in the garden or do some other work that is on my list of things to do. I doubt I would miss this forum but I get sort of addicted to things, so maybe I'll be here a while yet.

Click to expand...

How many sects in Christianity agree on what the Bible says? Often, it can be a difference in how they believe a few verses that separates them. So what do they do? They try and show how the other is wrong, debunking, and show how their interpretation is correct.

Then what about people and religions that say they "believe" in the Bible. As you know, they can say whatever they want, because many of them don't study the Bible or even read the Bible. They may be in a religion that only quotes a few verses that makes it seem as if they know and believe in the Bible.

Then there are those that don't believe the Bible... they think the Bible is just a bunch of myths written by people, and they don't believe it is the infallible, inerrant Word of God . But what can Christians say to those people? It was written by people. And, it was people that said that "God" said this or that. And, it was people that decided which stories get into the Bible. And then, it is people, usually their religious leaders, that tell them what the Bible means.

If people want to support their view of the Bible or any other religion, there will come a time when they will have to give a reason why they believe it is true. But then, will they then try and show how the other person's beliefs are wrong? But then they usually do the same thing to Christians, and there's probably millions of things a person can show how the Bible or any religion is wrong. So we end up, which I think is the easier route, debunking the other persons beliefs.

I think it is worse for a religion that thinks it is right. And, on top of that, those religions are usually expected to "spread" the Word, which many see as proselytizing. What makes them right and the others wrong? The believers have to know. They have to know how to respond to "attacks" (real or imagined) from people with "false" beliefs (beliefs that are different than theirs). Debunking the others is part of what some religions expect their followers to do.

Pete in Panama said:

What I can say is I'm familiar w/ a bunch of what Baha'u'llah wrote (and interested me) if that's what u mean, was there something that didn't make sense to u or something you understood to disagree w/ the Bible?

Please bear in mind that I am not the Baha'i religion, but I can tell you what my take was & u can see if it fits w/ u maybe.

Click to expand...

I think Baha'is should be more up front with what they really believe about the Bible. Creation? Allegorical. Parting of the seas? Allegorical. Noah's flood? Allegorical. Satan? Allegorical. Jesus rising from the dead? Allegorical. Jesus born of a virgin? Oh, Baha'is, for some reason, do believe that?

For many people, I think by saying that you do believe in the Bible but not literally, but allegorically, would be a positive thing. But usually, Baha'is don't clarify that and just say things like... "We believe in Jesus and the Bible." Way too general. What do you believe about Jesus and the Bible? But then, of course, you're going to get "debunked" by Christians, and you will probably have to "debunk" some of the things they believe. Which means... one of you thinks they are right and the other is wrong and that those wrong beliefs must be corrected.

CG Didymus said:

How many sects in Christianity agree on what the Bible says? Often, it can be a difference in how they believe a few verses that separates them. So what do they do? They try and show how the other is wrong, debunking, and show how their interpretation is correct.

Then what about people and religions that say they "believe" in the Bible. As you know, they can say whatever they want, because many of them don't study the Bible or even read the Bible. They may be in a religion that only quotes a few verses that makes it seem as if they know and believe in the Bible.

Then there are those that don't believe the Bible... they think the Bible is just a bunch of myths written by people, and they don't believe it is the infallible, inerrant Word of God . But what can Christians say to those people? It was written by people. And, it was people that said that "God" said this or that. And, it was people that decided which stories get into the Bible. And then, it is people, usually their religious leaders, that tell them what the Bible means.

If people want to support their view of the Bible or any other religion, there will come a time when they will have to give a reason why they believe it is true. But then, will they then try and show how the other person's beliefs are wrong? But then they usually do the same thing to Christians, and there's probably millions of things a person can show how the Bible or any religion is wrong. So we end up, which I think is the easier route, debunking the other persons beliefs.

I think it is worse for a religion that thinks it is right. And, on top of that, those religions are usually expected to "spread" the Word, which many see as proselytizing. What makes them right and the others wrong? The believers have to know. They have to know how to respond to "attacks" (real or imagined) from people with "false" beliefs (beliefs that are different than theirs). Debunking the others is part of what some religions expect their followers to do.

Click to expand...

A few verses variation in how Christians interpret the Bible usually does not end up denying the important parts of the Bible and I expect most Christians to disagree on various things. It can be hard to know where the line is drawn at times between being say a liberal Christian and not a Christian at all.
There are sects which end up changing the gospel completely and end up trapping people in a religion that claims to be the only true path, but which is not, and manipulating their understanding of the Bible and their consciences.
Debunking is probably the easy route to go and I see it as a necessary route to free people from bondage and errors even though it is just part of the journey that these people will have to follow.
Actually I usually have no success as people are bound tight in the errors they are taught and I cannot say that Jesus will not see them as Christians really anyway. I respect many people and their zeal for God even if they believe in ignorance. We all have ignorance after all, and knowledge is not the most important thing. (even if some people who claim to have the truth also seem to be proud of the knowledge they have received from their false teachers).
My religion does not expect anyone to debunk or be able to, it is just an area I got into. Just presenting the truth of the gospel to people and the positives of it without having to debunk anything is no doubt the best way to go.

Pete in Panama said:

What I can say is I'm familiar w/ a bunch of what Baha'u'llah wrote (and interested me) if that's what u mean, was there something that didn't make sense to u or something you understood to disagree w/ the Bible?

Please bear in mind that I am not the Baha'i religion, but I can tell you what my take was & u can see if it fits w/ u maybe.

Click to expand...

Jesus said that His word would last forever and Baha'i says that the dispensation of Jesus is over and His gospel message no longer applies to anyone.
Bahaullah claims to be the Spirit of Truth and Jesus told us that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit, which was given to Jesus disciples of 2000 years ago.
The Bible presents Jesus as coming back (the same way the disciples saw Him go to heaven) and raising the dead and judging the earth and setting up God's Kingdom in it's fulness at that time. Baha'i says someone else came in a different way to the way Jesus went and did not do the things that the return of Jesus is to do.
I could go on and on and use scriptures if that would help.

CG Didymus said:

I think Baha'is should be more up front with what they really believe about the Bible. Creation? Allegorical. Parting of the seas? Allegorical. Noah's flood? Allegorical. Satan? Allegorical. Jesus rising from the dead? Allegorical. Jesus born of a virgin? Oh, Baha'is, for some reason, do believe that?

For many people, I think by saying that you do believe in the Bible but not literally, but allegorically, would be a positive thing. But usually, Baha'is don't clarify that and just say things like... "We believe in Jesus and the Bible." Way too general. What do you believe about Jesus and the Bible? ....

Click to expand...

Something you might want to consider is that there are no clergy w/ the Baha'is & everyone's pretty much on their own w/ finding out the fine points. Please remember that even though Christianity is the world's largest religion, that most people in the world are not Christian and as a consequence most Baha'is as individuals are not particularly interested in how the faith relates to our Christian origin and heritage.

otoh, I was studying to be a Presbyterian minister when I enrolled into the Baha'i group & as a consequence I personally got a lots of interest in what it means to be a Christian. What I understand is that you have a lot of complaints about the Baha'is & that's fine (I do too) but I'd be grateful if you tell us what you do believe & what it is that you can't make sense out of w/ the Baha'is.

My take is that if u read & accept the Bible, you obey Jesus, then you also accept Christ's return. I understand that others don't see it that way & I'm always interested in what they have to say.

Brian2 said:

A few verses variation in how Christians interpret the Bible usually does not end up denying the important parts of the Bible and I expect most Christians to disagree on various things. It can be hard to know where the line is drawn at times between being say a liberal Christian and not a Christian at all.
There are sects which end up changing the gospel completely and end up trapping people in a religion that claims to be the only true path, but which is not, and manipulating their understanding of the Bible and their consciences.
Debunking is probably the easy route to go and I see it as a necessary route to free people from bondage and errors even though it is just part of the journey that these people will have to follow.
Actually I usually have no success as people are bound tight in the errors they are taught and I cannot say that Jesus will not see them as Christians really anyway. I respect many people and their zeal for God even if they believe in ignorance. We all have ignorance after all, and knowledge is not the most important thing. (even if some people who claim to have the truth also seem to be proud of the knowledge they have received from their false teachers).
My religion does not expect anyone to debunk or be able to, it is just an area I got into. Just presenting the truth of the gospel to people and the positives of it without having to debunk anything is no doubt the best way to go.

Click to expand...

A major debunking, and I believe a necessary one, was when Martin Luther went after the Catholic Church. I wanted nothing to do with the Catholic Church I grew up with, and then when I told some Catholics why, they said, "Oh, that was before Vatican II". So I guess the Catholic Church has made some changes.

I've also been around Christians that believe that the "gifts" of the Spirit were only for the New Testament times, while others believe they are for today. And they both try and "debunk" each other.

Then there's the Young Earth Creationist Christians vs. Atheists/evolutionists. They both give their side of the story, but then point out the errors of the other side. I'm fine with it. And agree with some things from one side, but then agree with some things from the other. I have a problem with the people, because they are so committed to their beliefs being true, can't see the possible errors in their views and see the truth in the views of the other side. For those Christians that are taught that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant Word of God, I'm sure it is tough not hold a position that is against anyone that challenges the Bible. But you're doing as good as I'd expect anyone to do. You listen. And you have respect for those with opposing views. I'll listen to what you say anytime.

Brian2 said:

Jesus said that His word would last forever and Baha'i says that the dispensation of Jesus is over...

Click to expand...

Granted that it's possible to find individual goof ball Baha'is who'll say that & that's fine for them. Heck, once in a while I say goofy stuff that I got to retract. Meanwhile you & I are searching for the truth & we care about reality.

Here's an interesting take from a Baha'i (link available if requested) describing how he understands the question, it makes sense to me but I'm interested in how you find it:

Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)... In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1) (The physical body of Christ did not exist from the beginning but the divine Christ did; Bahá’u’lláh is the Return of this divine Christ. Also, Christ as the Word of God changed the Word of God given to the Jews by changing the Laws of Moses even though (Deut 4:2, 12:32) forbids changing the Word of God. Therefore Jesus in physical form and as the Word of God has changed.)

Click to expand...

Where we are is we're deciding whether we want to be right & have the other side be wrong no matter what, or do we want to look into this & find out whether the other side is (first) logically consistent and (second) honestly presented. The final question of whether what the other presents is a game changer has to be "no" for now but that nobody knows the future.

Pete in Panama said:

Something you might want to consider is that there are no clergy w/ the Baha'is & everyone's pretty much on their own w/ finding out the fine points. Please remember that even though Christianity is the world's largest religion, that most people in the world are not Christian and as a consequence most Baha'is as individuals are not particularly interested in how the faith relates to our Christian origin and heritage.

Click to expand...

There is a hierarchy of leadership in the Baha'i Faith too. To me, that's only a small step away from being "Clergy". I know people that were called to their Assemblies to "discuss" the fine points. Some were even visited by Auxiliary Board members.

A big problem with Christianity is it is so splintered. So if we break them done into how many members are in each sect, then any one group of Christianity isn't as big. Then how many "nominal" members do they have? So they shrink even more. But, in many countries, the umbrella term of "Christianity" is the main religion. So Baha'is, since they are told to "teach", have to deal with them. What do they believe and why? And that gets into this whole debunking thing.

I agree with Baha'is when they say things about many Christian beliefs about the Bible shouldn't be taken literal. But, for me, Baha'is take it to an extreme. They make pretty much everything "symbolic". The one I usually get into it with Baha'is is about the resurrection. Why make all the verses in all four Gospel, that talk about the risen Jesus appearing to his disciples, all symbolic? I think if a person doesn't want to believe those stories, it is much simpler just to say they are true and the gospel writers made them up.

Pete in Panama said:

otoh, I was studying to be a Presbyterian minister when I enrolled into the Baha'i group & as a consequence I personally got a lots of interest in what it means to be a Christian. What I understand is that you have a lot of complaints about the Baha'is & that's fine (I do too) but I'd be grateful if you tell us what you do believe & what it is that you can't make sense out of w/ the Baha'is.

Click to expand...

Baha'is can't say that though. They have to make the Bible stories true in one sense and not true in a literal sense. Then, they say there were traditions of men added in and also misinterpretations. To me, that's doing the same thing as saying that the Bible stories are true, but in a nice and round about way.

The Baha'i Faith does that with every religion, though. A usual one that we discuss here on the forum is Hinduism. It all started when a Baha'i said that Krishna was the founder of Hinduism. Too many things are a little inaccurate and way too general. It is as if the Baha'is want other people to forget their old religion and accept the Baha'i Faith. But they don't want to get into a heavy debate or argument over it. And, with Hinduism, Baha'is don't have their own Scriptures to turn to for support. All they can say is that they believe that Krishna is a manifestation. But a manifestation is supposed to bring a new religion and a book? Krishna didn't bring a book or start a religion. Hinduism was already here and Krishna is in a story in part of a book. Just to general.

Pete in Panama said:

My take is that if u read & accept the Bible, you obey Jesus, then you also accept Christ's return. I understand that others don't see it that way & I'm always interested in what they have to say.

Click to expand...

Who really accepts and "obeys" Jesus and other things in the Bible. I don't know very many Christians that follow the teachings in Mark about handling serpents. Some of the ones that do "obey" those teachings are dead. The things about Christ's return have been debated here a lot with Baha'is. I've asked who is the "Lamb" and "the Lamb that was Slain." I've asked, "if there are still wars and rumors of wars how can Christ already have returned?" Then the "Three Woes" being Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? I've questioned that and also the "Two Witnesses".

Then there are the beasts and dragons and things. I don't think the Umayyads and the Abbasids fit very well. It's like six things are all made to start in 621AD and end in 1844. But they don't. But I've discussed all these things with Baha'is here. They give me their reasons why they think the Baha'i explanation/interpretation is correct, and I tell them why I think is has problems.

Oh, and even in Daniel with the different days and when to start counting them. Baha'is start most all of them from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. But in one of them, to me, it is something about when the abomination of desecration is set up. I forget the details. But Baha's need to have them start with a year that gets them to where they need to get to, most of the time that is 1844. But is that the coming of "The Christ"? No, it is the coming of the one announcing the coming of "The Christ". But Baha'is have their answer to that. It satisfies them, but not me. What can I say. I keep asking and Baha'is keep giving answers that are good enough for them but still a little off for me.

Conscious thoughts said:

Are religious people supposed to go around "debunking" other peoples belief just because we believe differently than they do?

Are we doing the right action or speech when we tell others, your religion or faith is false or wrong, because i can not accept what you believe in? Did we truly check our own belief or faith in what we claim to believe our self? Do we truly understand the teaching enough to discredit others ?
Did we do enough our self to be the "right" owner of the TRUTH ?

I know for my self and what i believe in that my understanding of the teaching is in a constant change because i learn something new or understand something new mostly every day. That to me tells me that i will not be fully "corect" in my belief for a long long time. Only when i have reached the end of the wisdom and can no longer learn more will i be able to say now i "know" but still then, Can i be sure i actually know and understand it all?

Click to expand...

Personally, in general, I think that when one notices somebody holds false beliefs, one has a moral duty to bring that to their attention.

I do say "in general". Surely there are exceptions, as always.
But in general... leaving people to live a lie and not do anything about it, I consider that immoral. Especially if you even actively help in maintaining the lie and accommodating for those false beliefs.

Shakeel said:

We again, huh? The we that supposes everyone is as uncertain and ignorant of their faith as you.

Yes, I truly checked my belief and faith in what I say I believe.

Did you truly read what happens to disbelievers in the hereafter?

Surat al-Haj, 19-22 "These are two adversaries who have disputed over their Lord. But those who disbelieved will have cut out for them garments of fire. Poured upon their heads will be scalding water.
: By which is melted that within their bellies and [their] skins.
And for [striking] them are maces of iron."

What kind of a person doesn't care? A psychopath, someone who doesn't have certain faith and those who disbelieve. You already said you're not certain of your faith.

Surat Al-Baqara, 167 "Those who followed will say, "If only we had another turn [at worldly life] so we could disassociate ourselves from them as they have disassociated themselves from us." Thus will Allah show them their deeds as regrets upon them. And they are never to emerge from the Fire."

Click to expand...

Loving it.

"believe, or else!"

Wonderful.

CG Didymus said:

There is a hierarchy of leadership in the Baha'i Faith too. To me, that's only a small step away from being "Clergy". I know people that were called to their Assemblies to "discuss" the fine points. Some were even visited by Auxiliary Board members.

A big problem with Christianity is it is so splintered. So if we break them done into how many members are in each sect, then any one group of Christianity isn't as big. Then how many "nominal" members do they have? So they shrink even more. But, in many countries, the umbrella term of "Christianity" is the main religion. So Baha'is, since they are told to "teach", have to deal with them. What do they believe and why? And that gets into this whole debunking thing.

I agree with Baha'is when they say things about many Christian beliefs about the Bible shouldn't be taken literal. But, for me, Baha'is take it to an extreme. They make pretty much everything "symbolic". The one I usually get into it with Baha'is is about the resurrection. Why make all the verses in all four Gospel, that talk about the risen Jesus appearing to his disciples, all symbolic? I think if a person doesn't want to believe those stories, it is much simpler just to say they are true and the gospel writers made them up.

Baha'is can't say that though. They have to make the Bible stories true in one sense and not true in a literal sense. Then, they say there were traditions of men added in and also misinterpretations. To me, that's doing the same thing as saying that the Bible stories are true, but in a nice and round about way.

The Baha'i Faith does that with every religion, though. A usual one that we discuss here on the forum is Hinduism. It all started when a Baha'i said that Krishna was the founder of Hinduism. Too many things are a little inaccurate and way too general. It is as if the Baha'is want other people to forget their old religion and accept the Baha'i Faith. But they don't want to get into a heavy debate or argument over it. And, with Hinduism, Baha'is don't have their own Scriptures to turn to for support. All they can say is that they believe that Krishna is a manifestation. But a manifestation is supposed to bring a new religion and a book? Krishna didn't bring a book or start a religion. Hinduism was already here and Krishna is in a story in part of a book. Just to general.

Who really accepts and "obeys" Jesus and other things in the Bible. I don't know very many Christians that follow the teachings in Mark about handling serpents. Some of the ones that do "obey" those teachings are dead. The things about Christ's return have been debated here a lot with Baha'is. I've asked who is the "Lamb" and "the Lamb that was Slain." I've asked, "if there are still wars and rumors of wars how can Christ already have returned?" Then the "Three Woes" being Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? I've questioned that and also the "Two Witnesses".

Then there are the beasts and dragons and things. I don't think the Umayyads and the Abbasids fit very well. It's like six things are all made to start in 621AD and end in 1844. But they don't. But I've discussed all these things with Baha'is here. They give me their reasons why they think the Baha'i explanation/interpretation is correct, and I tell them why I think is has problems.

Oh, and even in Daniel with the different days and when to start counting them. Baha'is start most all of them from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. But in one of them, to me, it is something about when the abomination of desecration is set up. I forget the details. But Baha's need to have them start with a year that gets them to where they need to get to, most of the time that is 1844. But is that the coming of "The Christ"? No, it is the coming of the one announcing the coming of "The Christ". But Baha'is have their answer to that. It satisfies them, but not me. What can I say. I keep asking and Baha'is keep giving answers that are good enough for them but still a little off for me.

Click to expand...

Pse accept my thanks for your extensive response to my note. My problem is that I had a bit of trouble following all the points, somehow we lost our clarity. Maybe if we picked one point at a time say, w/ the question of what Jesus said in Matthew about wars & rumors --what I got is it's from

Matthew 24:6 said:

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled. For all these things must happen, but the end is not yet.

Click to expand...

--and what that says to me is that we ALWAYS have wars & rumors but that's NOT the time of the end which comes later.

We together on that or do u got a different take?

CG Didymus said:

A major debunking, and I believe a necessary one, was when Martin Luther went after the Catholic Church. I wanted nothing to do with the Catholic Church I grew up with, and then when I told some Catholics why, they said, "Oh, that was before Vatican II". So I guess the Catholic Church has made some changes.

I've also been around Christians that believe that the "gifts" of the Spirit were only for the New Testament times, while others believe they are for today. And they both try and "debunk" each other.

Then there's the Young Earth Creationist Christians vs. Atheists/evolutionists. They both give their side of the story, but then point out the errors of the other side. I'm fine with it. And agree with some things from one side, but then agree with some things from the other. I have a problem with the people, because they are so committed to their beliefs being true, can't see the possible errors in their views and see the truth in the views of the other side. For those Christians that are taught that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant Word of God, I'm sure it is tough not hold a position that is against anyone that challenges the Bible. But you're doing as good as I'd expect anyone to do. You listen. And you have respect for those with opposing views. I'll listen to what you say anytime.

Click to expand...

When Christians have disagreements with other Christians it really should be an in house discussion. It can get heated but usually both sides respect that the one they are disagreeing with is a Christians (even though I have heard that even this can be challenged by some YECs )
The Catholic Church has changed somewhat over the years but Protestants can always find fault with their teachings and practice if they have a mind to.
When it comes to modern scholarship and the Bible, many Christians, liberal ones, have gone down the road of modern scholarship and do not seem to realise that this modern scholarship much of the time is flawed, with assumptions that are anti supernatural and the consensus reached about something is no more than a democratising of truth as the consensus means that most scholars agree on a certain position and who cares that most of the scholars might be sceptics about the supernatural.
It is hard to find out exactly what the inerrant Word of God means in some places and with what science claims to have discovered. For me that means taking a stand against what science might say at time but not knowing where to draw the line,,,,,,,,,,, knowing that science can be flawed and say things that step beyond the bounds of science and of what science can rightly say it has discovered and tested, and knowing that science always has to find a naturalistic answer.
Nobody said that having a faith in Jesus was going to be easy and Jesus said that the work He is giving us is to have faith in Him (John 6:29) and it can be work to defend one's faith from the many of what I see as attacks against it, some of which are credible until you find the answers to them.

Pete in Panama said:

Granted that it's possible to find individual goof ball Baha'is who'll say that & that's fine for them. Heck, once in a while I say goofy stuff that I got to retract. Meanwhile you & I are searching for the truth & we care about reality.

Click to expand...

I have been told that the official Baha'i position is that the dispensation of previous Manifestations ends with the coming of the next.
But of course Baha'u'llah does not remind/tell people of the true gospel of Jesus anyway as the Spirit of Truth was meant to.
A double clamp up on the gospel of Jesus, and a replacement with Baha'u'llah when Baha'u'llah cannot possibly offer anything that Jesus did not offer imo.

Pete in Panama said:

Here's an interesting take from a Baha'i (link available if requested) describing how he understands the question, it makes sense to me but I'm interested in how you find it:
Link: >>>Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)... In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1) (The physical body of Christ did not exist from the beginning but the divine Christ did; Bahá’u’lláh is the Return of this divine Christ. Also, Christ as the Word of God changed the Word of God given to the Jews by changing the Laws of Moses even though (Deut 4:2, 12:32) forbids changing the Word of God. Therefore Jesus in physical form and as the Word of God has changed.)<<<

Click to expand...

I see that Christ existed with the Father and as God with Him before becoming a man.
I see Jesus as the fulfilment of the OT prophecies about the Messiah and bringing in the promised New Covenant. The Jews were under the Mosaic Covenant and it's Laws and the New Covenant is different and is one of grace and the Law is Love, which the Mosaic Laws were still based on. So there is no changing to God's Word, just a fulfilling and a better Covenant in which God's Spirit lives in a believer and guides us to fulfil the requirements of God.
I see nowhere in the Bible where another is promised to come except for the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Truth and is the Paraclete, and is promised to come to disciples of Jesus and which did come to them.
And of course there is the promise of Jesus coming back personally.

Pete in Panama said:

Where we are is we're deciding whether we want to be right & have the other side be wrong no matter what, or do we want to look into this & find out whether the other side is (first) logically consistent and (second) honestly presented. The final question of whether what the other presents is a game changer has to be "no" for now but that nobody knows the future.

Click to expand...

It has to be "no" for now. We both no doubt want to be right.

Brian2 said:

I have been told that the official Baha'i position is that the dispensation of previous Manifestations ends with the coming of the next.
But of course Baha'u'llah does not remind/tell people of the true gospel of Jesus anyway...

Click to expand...

This is what I was just chatting w/ CG Didymus above, that the Baha'is don't have a clergy to say what's in the Sacred texts & what we're supposed to believe. We're all free to read the texts ourselves & conclude what we see as fit. If ur interested I can help u search the authoritative sources but if ur settled w/ what someone said he got from someone else then enjoy --just understand it's a private fantasy.

Brian2 said:

...It has to be "no" for now. We both no doubt want to be right.

Click to expand...

This is where we may be diverging. My goal is observable reality, an actuality that's not hearsay but something that everyone can see. Being right is nice but it's like when Abe Lincoln was asked if God was on the Union's side he responded "I'm more concerned that I'm on God side then trying to figure out which side God is on."

Look, we both know that most probably neither of us is going to "convert" the other. My goal is fellowship + I could very well learn something. Those are attainable goals, I hope the same for u.

Pete in Panama said:

This is what I was just chatting w/ CG Didymus above, that the Baha'is don't have a clergy to say what's in the Sacred texts & what we're supposed to believe. We're all free to read the texts ourselves & conclude what we see as fit. If ur interested I can help u search the authoritative sources but if ur settled w/ what someone said he got from someone else then enjoy --just understand it's a private fantasy.

Click to expand...

I cannot really know it was a private fantasy as I remember that it came from official sources, but now that you are saying what you say I guess I'll have to put it in the not sure basket until confirmed at some point. That is a problem I have with finding out about Baha'i beliefs. Baha'is don't seem to know for sure and I sometimes end up with the wrong info. And the language is a bit obscure at times esp in the writings of Baha'u'llah and terms that Baha'is might use do not coincide well at times with similar terms that I know in Christianity.

Pete in Panama said:

This is where we may be diverging. My goal is observable reality, an actuality that's not hearsay but something that everyone can see. Being right is nice but it's like when Abe Lincoln was asked if God was on the Union's side he responded "I'm more concerned that I'm on God side then trying to figure out which side God is on."

Look, we both know that most probably neither of us is going to "convert" the other. My goal is fellowship + I could very well learn something. Those are attainable goals, I hope the same for u.

Click to expand...

That's fine. I have no illusion about converting anyone. I've been on forums long enough to know that.
Most Baha'is seem to not want to debate the meaning of the Bible, and I can understand why, or debate the legitimacy of Baha'u'llah to even claim things for himself that the Bible says are fulfilled in Jesus, I can understand why also. And of course I think it is a taught position in Baha'i not to debate stuff anyway,,,,,,,,,even though I know a Baha'i who loves a debate.
What would you like to discuss if anything?

Brian2 said:

I cannot really know it was a private fantasy as I remember that it came from official sources, but now that you are saying what you say I guess I'll have to put it in the not sure basket until confirmed at some point. That is a problem I have with finding out about Baha'i beliefs. Baha'is don't seem to know for sure and I sometimes end up with the wrong info. And the language is a bit obscure at times esp in the writings of Baha'u'llah and terms that Baha'is might use do not coincide well at times with similar terms that I know in Christianity.

Click to expand...

True, it seems different because it's unfamiliar but after a good look things begin to come about a lot easier. Use your experience w/ Christianity, that the Sacred Revealed word: The Bible, was written & lost hundreds of years before the writing of the earliest known translations. The renditions we have today may seem daunting to some but I'd say you & I could agree that especially in this wonderful info age finding out what's in the Bible & was the original intent has never been easier.

How much easier it should be w/ the Baha'i texts, there are official translations into English of all the important stuff. If ur interested I'd be happy to get u links for all the texts, or cite references in response to specific questions, but if you're saying that it's just to hard because well, it's just to hard then we can have a good laugh & part friends.

Brian2 said:

...Most Baha'is seem to not want to debate the meaning of the Bible, and I can understand why, or debate the legitimacy of Baha'u'llah to even claim things for himself that the Bible says are fulfilled in Jesus, I can understand why also. And of course I think it is a taught position in Baha'i not to debate stuff anyway,,,,,,,,,even though I know a Baha'i who loves a debate.
What would you like to discuss if anything?

Click to expand...

There are a lot of followers of various religions who want to destroy other people's beliefs to justify their own. A Baha'i never needs to do that. We understand that what we got is true because Christianity is true; I decided to follow along w/ the Baha'i stuff because I wanted to be a good Christian.

It's like when ur talking to a Jew you don't say that the Ten Commandments were wrong or that Abraham shouldn't have come into Canaan, you consider those things part of your faith. Same w/ me --but that's my interests, what interests you? Are u interested in the prophesies? The new social standards? All that stuff is fun to me but I don't want to bore u by going off on a tangent.

Pete in Panama said:

My take is that if u read & accept the Bible, you obey Jesus, then you also accept Christ's return. I understand that others don't see it that way & I'm always interested in what they have to say.

Click to expand...

Another thing I should mention is that I don't think it is right for Christians to take "The Bible" and make it their own and add in their "New Testament" to it and include it as being "The Bible." They do what Baha'is do to the NT. They interpret it in a way that fits Baha'i beliefs. But I don't think it is accurate as to how the writers intended their writings to be taken. Not that I believe what they said is true, but I think they intended for people to believe in a devil, in hell, in demons and in a Jesus that rose physically from the dead and is going to return.

They told stories of a Jesus that had a miraculous birth, walked on water and healed lepers, the blind, the crippled and even brought people back to life. They wanted Jesus to be a God/man and greater than any prophet that had come before. I think it was all an exaggerated, embellished story that was written by men and made into "The Word of God". But that's just a guess. And how do Baha'is take the NT? It seems like they can make it the Word of God when they need to to and the words of men when they want to. And make whatever they want, even though it is written as an actual event, like the resurrection, into an allegorical story.

Pete in Panama said:

--and what that says to me is that we ALWAYS have wars & rumors but that's NOT the time of the end which comes later.

Click to expand...

Here is a little more context...
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

If there are wars and rumors of wars, then I don't see how it can be the end yet. And we do still have wars and rumors of wars, yet it's almost 200 since the Baha'i Faith started. Many false Christs will come. There will be the abomination of desolation. There will be a great tribulation. It seems very possible, we are heading towards that day... but Baha'is say that day has already happened... in one sense. But Baha'is, themselves have the world heading toward a great tribulation, because the world, for the most part, rejected Baha'u'llah. To me, that is not how the NT has things. Jesus comes down and destroys all evil people and casts the devil into an abyss. But, that is accepting a prophetic vision as being real. As I understand it, Revelation had some people voting against making it "Scripture". But then again, it was people voting on which stories and letters to make "Scripture"?

I can fully understand why some people reject the NT. And, I can understand why some Christians take it to be the Word of God. But Baha'is have found a way to reject it and accept it at the same time. They have found a way to make it say exactly what they need it to say. Wars and rumors of wars? I don't even know if Jesus really said that. What if it was just something Matthew thought would be a good thing to say? So, no matter what I think or say will change what Baha'is need to believe about it. It cannot be literal. Wars and rumors of wars will continue, even though the "End", the coming of the "Christ", Baha'u'llah, has already come and gone.

Pete in Panama said:

True, it seems different because it's unfamiliar but after a good look things begin to come about a lot easier. Use your experience w/ Christianity, that the Sacred Revealed word: The Bible, was written & lost hundreds of years before the writing of the earliest known translations. The renditions we have today may seem daunting to some but I'd say you & I could agree that especially in this wonderful info age finding out what's in the Bible & was the original intent has never been easier..

Click to expand...

Yes it is easier these days to find information about the Bible. As usual a lot of misleading stuff but we find our niche.

Pete in Panama said:

How much easier it should be w/ the Baha'i texts, there are official translations into English of all the important stuff. If ur interested I'd be happy to get u links for all the texts, or cite references in response to specific questions, but if you're saying that it's just to hard because well, it's just to hard then we can have a good laugh & part friends.There are a lot of followers of various religions who want to destroy other people's beliefs to justify their own. A Baha'i never needs to do that. We understand that what we got is true because Christianity is true; I decided to follow along w/ the Baha'i stuff because I wanted to be a good Christian.

Click to expand...

The Baha'i writings are a different kettle of fish even if there are official translations. It's like reading a tough philosophy treatise cross Psalms in an older style of English and with flowery language that is never 100% clear as to the meaning. And it seems to go on like that forever according to the number of little books Baha'u'llah wrote,,,,,,,,and with more to come it seems, when it is decided to release them.
I have plenty of reading to do and other things and am happy to find out things through people I talk with on the internet or in small bites here and there.
I'm not sure how following along with the Baha'i stuff would make anyone a good Christian.

Pete in Panama said:

It's like when ur talking to a Jew you don't say that the Ten Commandments were wrong or that Abraham shouldn't have come into Canaan, you consider those things part of your faith. Same w/ me --but that's my interests, what interests you? Are u interested in the prophesies? The new social standards? All that stuff is fun to me but I don't want to bore u by going off on a tangent.

Click to expand...

I have tended to rip into the beliefs of others but have learnt to be more subdued over the years.
I usually stick to stuff where it looks as if the Baha'i faith contradicts the Bible and use that to pummel people. But I try to stay friends. As I say I am a bit more subdued these days.
Baha'i prophecy interpretation, who Baha'u'llah is, is His coming prophesied in the Bible etc. I'm least interested in the new social standards probably except to maybe compare it to what Jesus offers.

Brian2 said:

Yes it is easier these days to find information about the Bible. As usual a lot of misleading stuff but we find our niche.



The Baha'i writings are a different kettle of fish even if there are official translations. It's like reading a tough philosophy treatise cross Psalms in an older style of English and with flowery language that is never 100% clear as to the meaning. And it seems to go on like that forever according to the number of little books Baha'u'llah wrote,,,,,,,,and with more to come it seems, when it is decided to release them.
I have plenty of reading to do and other things and am happy to find out things through people I talk with on the internet or in small bites here and there.
I'm not sure how following along with the Baha'i stuff would make anyone a good Christian.



I have tended to rip into the beliefs of others but have learnt to be more subdued over the years.
I usually stick to stuff where it looks as if the Baha'i faith contradicts the Bible and use that to pummel people. But I try to stay friends. As I say I am a bit more subdued these days.
Baha'i prophecy interpretation, who Baha'u'llah is, is His coming prophesied in the Bible etc. I'm least interested in the new social standards probably except to maybe compare it to what Jesus offers.

Click to expand...

there's a lot of really good stuff there I'd love to chat w/ u about --right now my life has turn sort of upside down & it'll take a few days for me to find a way thru.

Will get back to u.