• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What was the Death of Jesus about?

J

John1.12

Free gift
Rival said:
Well it's kind of a long story. I was raised in a Christian country but not really a Christian. I always had a fascination with religion and talking to God etc. I would beg my mum for a Bible by the time I was 6, and at 9 I was gifted one from another family member at Christmas. I began to take a more serious and adult interest in my teenage years, and I began truly taking in the scriptures, listening to Christian teachers, looking up the differences between the denominations, going indepth with theologies etc. I used to enjoy listening to such folks as James White - I even watched Wretched (I still sometimes guilty pleasure watch Wretched). I attended multiple different Church services and read commentaries on the Gospels. I had a commentary on John that I really liked. It was an old book and I can't mind who wrote it, now. It's long gone.

Anyway, after years of this and being a Christian, I came to the conclusion it is wrong. I was convinced by Jewish arguments to the contrary.
Click to expand...
You will find no verse in the bible that says this is how you become a Christian? Did you know the Lord ? lots of people think they were a Christian Just by being American, raised in a home were their parents were Christian ect ,or when they were baptised as a baby .
 
Rival

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Barry Johnson said:
You will find no verse in the bible that says this is how you become a Christian? Did you know the Lord ? lots of people think they were a Christian Just by being American, raised in a home were their parents were Christian ect ,or when they were baptised as a baby .
Click to expand...
I believed I had found Jesus and The Lord and what not. But one can't be a believer without understanding one's belief -

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man who asketh you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.

I'm not American, I wasn't raised particularly Christian, and I wasn't baptised.
 
Brian2

Brian2

Veteran Member
osgart said:
As I understand it God has a nature and a truth. God cannot and will not violate his laws of His justice, nature, and truth. So snapping his fingers and instantly making everything supreme victory for all is out of the question. That would violate his nature, justice, and truth.

God must deal with man's hearts and minds in order to save humanity. That is why Jesus came in human form. God condescended to lowly, blind human kind.

God had to conquer death and hell, and the powers of Satan. Satan attacks God's truth, law, and justice at every point with lies and judgments, and accusations of his own. Satan was God's first creation, created powerful, with perfect wisdom.

The main law against the sinner is without the shedding of blood is no remission of sins. God by his own law requires justice, and that justice is that the wages of sin is death. The soul that sinneth it shall die.

God's judgment is that there are none righteous, no, not one. God, by his truth, decided on making a way back to redemption. God chose to love humanity after all had sinned.

To redeem humanity God must satisfy his own judgment upon mankind. So Jesus became a sacrificial substitute to satisfy God's judgment.

Jesus thenceforth made a road back to the Father through his death and resurrection. He had to do it in weakness and not in power. Because the victory is for humanity. It's a rescue. Mankind cannot endure God's power. So the death on the cross satisfies God's law by overcoming the power of death, hell, and Satan.

If Jesus didn't die on the cross for sinners then God would have had to execute justice upon mankind. God won't compromise justice. So God chose a sacrifice of Jesus to fulfill the law with mercy.

So God had to deal with mankind in weakness with mercy. Jesus victory is to God's glory alone. Humanity has no ability to save itself according to God's laws.

That's what I have learned from Christians.
Click to expand...

You seem to have learned well.
 
K

KerimF

Active Member
blü 2 said:
Leaving aside that "Barabbas" means "Son of Father", and that this part of the story is very likely invention, there is no evidence of the practice of which you speak ─ please correct me if that's wrong.
Click to expand...

Nope, you are absolutely not wrong. It happens that you have your story, a Jew has his story, a Muslim has his story, a Hindu has his story, a formal Christian has his story and I, naturally, have also my story.
The good news is that everyone is happy with his story.
Isn't it a wonderful happy world?!
 
George-ananda

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
F1fan said:
Some speculate that Jesus learned Buddhism during the time in his life that isn't covered in Bible stories. That is plausible and would explain the unique perspective.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree that he went east including the Himalayan region in his period of spiritual development before his public ministry.
 
George-ananda

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
blü 2 said:
I think the historical approach is the way to such answers, but that's for another day.
Click to expand...
It is disappointing that the typical historical approach towards Jesus will leave things frustratingly unanswered and open to different speculations. I have come to consider other (psychic and legendary) sources of information too, but that's for another day.
 
K

KerimF

Active Member
Barry Johnson said:
Hopefully you quote that verse because you believe it . Why not all the bible?
Click to expand...

Every part of the Bible was important in/for a certain period of time.
Only Jesus sayings are for all times.
But I don't expect anyone to see this as I do. On my side, it happens that I got the perfect knowledge (perfect relative to my needs) which I was looking for from Jesus only.

Truth be told, many parts of the Bible, mainly the OT, are still important, in our days, to those who have a living flesh only to take care of. The Bible (not Jesus) helps them be gathered in well-defined groups, and this gives them a better chance of survival while sharing together extra pleasures/emotions which are supposed to be spiritual or not.

But as Jesus said to his first Disciples, I am not of this world anymore ;)
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
George-ananda said:
I tend to agree that he went east including the Himalayan region in his period of spiritual development before his public ministry.
Click to expand...
There was a pretty active trade going on between the Middle East and Asia, so it was a matter of time before someone was exposed to Hinduism and/or Buddhism. As we see bored people in established cultures will attach to anything new and uplifting.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
blü 2 said:
What was the death of Jesus about?

Jesus, according to the gospels, sets out, not on a suicide mission (meaning a very dangerous mission), but on a mission to die, a seeking of death, a literal suicide.

In Mark he puts it on the table right near the start:

Mark 2:20 The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.​

and at the end he doesn’t take the midnight special camel train out of Jerusalem to points east, but deliberately avoids every chance to escape:

Mark 14:33 And he took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled. 34 And he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch." 35 And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 And he said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt."

Matthew 26:18 He said, "Go into the city to a certain one, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at your house with my disciples.'"

Matthew 26:29 “I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Matthew 26:38 Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Luke 22:22 For the Son of man goes as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

Luke 22:42 "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."​

The tone in John is different, but the determination to die is still foremost:

John 17:4 I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do; 5 and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 17:13 But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.​

I've never understood what's supposed to be going on. I'd be grateful for coherent answers to three

The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?

The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

Grateful for illumination.
Click to expand...

I believe death was necessary for the resurrection.

I believe it achieved the reception of the Holy Spirit in millions of people.

I believe this is actually three questions. The first question of why He needs an intermediary is answered by the fact that most people are not attuned to God's Spirit. The second question of why a new intermediary is that the other intermediaries were not as direct as God Himself. The third question of why the first century is answered by the fact that it takes a long time to spread the gospel to every person on earth.

 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
blü 2 said:
But why would anyone ─ in this case Jesus ─ have to die before there could be resurrection?

Isn't God omnipotent?

And isn't God benevolent? What's a benevolent God doing having anyone, let alone [his] son, put to an agonizing death?
Click to expand...

I believe that is by definition. One must be dead in order to be resurrected from the dead.

I believe He is.

I believe He is.

I believe He is doing it Himself. There is not another person (persnality) in the Godhead. God is in Jesus.
 
J

John1.12

Free gift
Rival said:
I believed I had found Jesus and The Lord and what not. But one can't be a believer without understanding one's belief -

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man who asketh you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.

I'm not American, I wasn't raised particularly Christian, and I wasn't baptised.
Click to expand...
So you believed and recieved the Holy Spirit ?
 
Rival

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Barry Johnson said:
I hear it all the time " I used to be a Christian " .. But its funny because its never anything that you could point to the bible on .
Click to expand...
Because you have a flawed, no true Christian view of Christianity that has a sola scriptura doctrine. According to you, unless a person was the exact kind of Christian you are, they weren't a real Christian. What a great way to never engage in a real debate. Just point out that the person to whom you're speaking was never a true Christian, throw in some Protestant nonsense about sola scriptura, and write off 90% of Christians throughout history up to now.

I tired to be cordial with you. I tried to actually engage with you. But you don't want to. All you want to do is tell folks they weren't your brand of Christian and therefore they're wrong. This is a dishonest, pathetic, low-brow debate technique that benefits no-one. We could actually have a meaningful discussion if you want, about Christianity, and I'd be absolutely up for that.

Instead, you just want to lord it over the 'fake ex Christians'.

So do you want a meaningful discussion or not?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top