YHWH: Worship ONE GOD, not MANY GODS. Worship Me, alone!

Brian2 · May 10, 2021

Soapy said:
Well, let’s start with the last part first:

“HE (?) will glorify me by taking from what is mine...”

The ‘He’ is forced, designed to make IT seem like a person. All righteous eternity agrees that the Greek did not designate a gender explicitly here. The word, “ekeinos” is offered by STRONGS as:

“that one (or neut. that thing)” (1565)

Literally, therefore, ‘IT’.

I think ekeinos just takes the gender of the noun it is describing and "spirit" is a neuter word. We do know that the Spirit is more than just a thing however because it grieves and teaches and knows the mind of God, just as the spirit in man knows the mind of a man. (1Cor 2:11) So a spirit is not just a force. The Spirit of God is also alive and comes to dwell in us and is called "living waters". (John 14:17, John 4:10)

Soapy said:
But more importantly, how, if the Holy Spirit IS UNFETTERED ALMIGHTY GOD, (ha ha ha...EQUAL TO GOD!! - oh boy..., the mind boggles at the senseless logic!) that Jesus has, GIVEN TO HIM (Jesus... who himself, by trinity, is also UNFETTERED ALMIGHTY GOD!) all knowledge and power that the Father has?
Howbeit Trinitarians cannot agree with the scriptures they claim they gain their knowledge from, that the Father GRANTED Jesus TO HAVE these things. Being GRANTED means gifted something that one did not have previously - yet trinity claims Jesus had it all along...

I'm not sure if you are putting words in my mouth when you say "unfettered". The Father is the one true God and the Spirit is in the Father and the Father in the Spirit and the Spirit knows the mind of God.
The Son is in the Father and the Father in the Spirit and the Son became a man, stepping into the creation so to speak, and laid aside His omniscience as a man and relied on His Father for all things, just as we do. The Father gave Him knowledge of things and held back other knowledge from Him when He was on earth. When He rose from the dead He was given all power and authority in heaven and on earth (Matt 28) and so He is equal in power and authority to His Father. It was His and His Father gave it to Him as His inheritance as His Son, just as what happens in earthly terms. Jesus rose and fills all the universe, all things (Eph 4:10) but is still a man bodily also. (Col 2:9) He has taken back His Godly omnis, He is everywhere and knows all things and and has all power. Yet He is still the Son and does as His Father wants and is still a man and so still has a God and His Father became His God when He became a man (Psalm 22:10)

Soapy said:
We can see from this that there is a transition FROM the Father, to the Son, and onto the Holy Spirit. Yet trinity claims that the three are co-equal in almighty omniscience.

My understanding is that the Trinity doctrine is that the 3 persons have the same nature but the Son on becoming a man became as I said above.

Soapy said:
How does the Holy Spirit not have what the Father has...

How does the Holy Spirit not have what Jesus has - after Jesus is gifted it by the Father.

Is this another example of [a] God who veils his power? A new trinity teaching... my guess, yes! Since trinity modifies itself as each of its fallacies is uncovered.

The Spirit is God and so has what God has (2Cor 3:17). The Spirit is not another God, the Spirit is the same God as the Father and the Father is the one called the only true God because the Spirit is His and the Son is His. The presence of the the Father and Son is in the Spirit (John 14:23) The Spirit is who went with Israel in the wilderness and God's presence was in Him to go with them.

Soapy said:
or they simply go underground away from the debate so as not to imbibe the truth only to resurface again elsewhere with their same false doctrine or a modified version..,YET we know that:

That is what I see with those who deny the trinity.

Denying it means to deny scriptures that show otherwise.

Soapy said:
‘All power and authority has been granted to me, Jesus said. But nonetheless, ‘All’ does not include the SEAT OF POWER, the throne of God. And this is illustrated by the two themes I outlined: Joseph and Mordeciah. And... written in the scriptures:

“For he ‘has put everything under his feet.’ Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.” (1 Cor 15:27)

Need anymore be said?

Jesus sits on the throne with His Father. The one on the throne who created all things alone and is worthy to receive power and honor and glory and who is coming is God and that God is 3 persons. Who is coming? Jesus. Who created all things -Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Who has all power, who receives power? (Rev 4)
Who is speaking from the throne about God in the third person? (Rev 21:3)
Who is speaking from the throne and says "Praise our God"? (Rev 19:5)
Jesus is a man with a body but is full deity (Col 2:9) and has a God because He is a man and submits to His God and Father.

Soapy said:
I’m glad to see you asking these questions... No, it does not belong to Jesus. You cannot be GIVEN something for a period of time to perform a function, and then after performing the function, hand the thing BACK and yet STILL have it as YOURS. Nothing goes such. What happened with Jesus is that LATER, after the world and heaven is TESTED as to its conformity to the holy order OF GOD, Jesus SITS DOWN TO JUDGE the WORLD (not Heaven) and selects those whom pleases him to GRANT THEM ETERNAL LIFE IN HIS KINGDOM (the world - creation) that the Father then GRANTS TO HIM, thus fulfilling the prophesy of the Son REIGNING OVER CREATION. Nowhere does ANY SCRIPTURE claim that Jesus REIGNS over HEAVEN... THE Father REMAINS THE RULER.
Heaven is an endless spirit realm.
Creation is a ‘room’ in the MANSION of his Father. Scriptures tells us he went to PREPARE this room for his followers FROM within his Fathers mansion. Nowhere does it say that Jesus rules the mansion of heaven.

Jesus was appointed to be firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth (Ps 89:27) Jesus is firstborn over creation (Col 1:15<16) Jesus is ruler of creation (Rev 3:14) Every knee in heaven and on earth will bow to Him because He is Lord of ALL. (Phil 2:10-11)
Jesus is King of the Kingdom of God,,,,,,,,,,,,all of it.
Why did Jesus hand back the Kingdom? So that God would be all in all and Jesus would not be taking over the reigns and usurping the rule in the Kingdom over His Father. Jesus is still King of Kings and Lord of Lords and His Father also is. They both reign forever along with the Spirit who is the Lord. (2Cor 3:17)

Zech 14:8 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the Eastern Sea and the other half toward the Western Sea, in summer and winter alike. 9 On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— the LORD alone, and His name alone.
Who is ruling over the earth? The LORD alone. Who is the LORD. The LORD is God and Jesus has inherited His Fathers name, the name above all names. (Heb 1:3, Phil 2:9)
Do you see the spiritual realm as part of creation?

Soapy said:
Why did Joseph hand back the rulership by the seal (equiv: Holy Spirit) of Egypt to Pharoah after Joseph fulfilled his mission to oversee the famine in Egypt?
Why did Mordeciah hand back the signet ring of king Xerxes (equiv: Holy Spirit) to king Xerxes after modecaih fulfilled the day of Purim?

Answered above. Jesus was not usurping the throne, in the end it is God who is the only redeemer and who is in control and we all, including the man Jesus, who sits on the throne with His Father forever, recognise that and should also recognise The Son and the Spirit as being in the Father, just as we should recognise the Father and Spirit as being in the Son, bodily and that the Father and Son are in the Spirit and so the Father and Son are omnipresent and come to live in us when we have the Spirit.

Soapy said:
The world (not Heaven) to come will by no means be ruled by angels” (Hebrew 2:5)

At least you don't seem to be saying that Jesus is an angel now, Michael the archangel.

Brian2 · May 10, 2021

Neuropteron said:
Hi.
Absolutely, my comment did not imply that Jesus's God given authority is subject to restrictions apart from those God himself laid upon him .
"who [although] existing in the form of God, counted not the being, on an equality with God a thing to be grasped." American Standard version.

Cheers.

The story is about equality between equals and remaining humble. Jesus exemplified that only if He was equal in nature to God before He became a man, just as humans are equal in nature to other humans.
Being in the form of God means that the inner nature of the pre human Jesus was the same as God's nature,,,,,,,,,,,in other words He was God by nature. He had to take on the nature of a servant because He was not a servant. He is the Son, and so has the same nature as His Father. He is not a created Son and John 1:3 tells us that and other passages tell us that He is Jehovah.

Brian2 · May 10, 2021

Neuropteron said:
Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.
A closer look at other translation gives us a better understanding of Paul's comment, for example:"...fullness of the divinity..." Kingdom Interlinear.
other words it's the divine "quality" of God that dwells bodily in the person not God himself, this understanding is confirmed by other translations as well.

The belief that God can literally live in another person or object is called Animism and is not a Bible teaching.

Cheers

Really, so you deny that the Father and Son come and dwell with and in us and that Jesus spirit is joined to our spirit? (John 14: 17, 23, 1Cor 6:17)
Do you also deny that Jesus cast our demons from people in whom they lived? and even sent them into pigs?

Soapy · May 10, 2021

Brian2 said:
I think ekeinos just takes the gender of the noun it is describing and "spirit" is a neuter word. We do know that the Spirit is more than just a thing however because it grieves and teaches and knows the mind of God, just as the spirit in man knows the mind of a man. (1Cor 2:11) So a spirit is not just a force. The Spirit of God is also alive and comes to dwell in us and is called "living waters". (John 14:17, John 4:10)

I'm not sure if you are putting words in my mouth when you say "unfettered". The Father is the one true God and the Spirit is in the Father and the Father in the Spirit and the Spirit knows the mind of God.
The Son is in the Father and the Father in the Spirit and the Son became a man, stepping into the creation so to speak, and laid aside His omniscience as a man and relied on His Father for all things, just as we do. The Father gave Him knowledge of things and held back other knowledge from Him when He was on earth. When He rose from the dead He was given all power and authority in heaven and on earth (Matt 28) and so He is equal in power and authority to His Father. It was His and His Father gave it to Him as His inheritance as His Son, just as what happens in earthly terms. Jesus rose and fills all the universe, all things (Eph 4:10) but is still a man bodily also. (Col 2:9) He has taken back His Godly omnis, He is everywhere and knows all things and and has all power. Yet He is still the Son and does as His Father wants and is still a man and so still has a God and His Father became His God when He became a man (Psalm 22:10)

My understanding is that the Trinity doctrine is that the 3 persons have the same nature but the Son on becoming a man became as I said above.

The Spirit is God and so has what God has (2Cor 3:17). The Spirit is not another God, the Spirit is the same God as the Father and the Father is the one called the only true God because the Spirit is His and the Son is His. The presence of the the Father and Son is in the Spirit (John 14:23) The Spirit is who went with Israel in the wilderness and God's presence was in Him to go with them.

That is what I see with those who deny the trinity. Denying it means to deny scriptures that show otherwise.

Jesus sits on the throne with His Father. The one on the throne who created all things alone and is worthy to receive power and honor and glory and who is coming is God and that God is 3 persons. Who is coming? Jesus. Who created all things -Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Who has all power, who receives power? (Rev 4)
Who is speaking from the throne about God in the third person? (Rev 21:3)
Who is speaking from the throne and says "Praise our God"? (Rev 19:5)
Jesus is a man with a body but is full deity (Col 2:9) and has a God because He is a man and submits to His God and Father.

Jesus was appointed to be firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth (Ps 89:27) Jesus is firstborn over creation (Col 1:15<16) Jesus is ruler of creation (Rev 3:14) Every knee in heaven and on earth will bow to Him because He is Lord of ALL. (Phil 2:10-11)
Jesus is King of the Kingdom of God,,,,,,,,,,,,all of it.
Why did Jesus hand back the Kingdom? So that God would be all in all and Jesus would not be taking over the reigns and usurping the rule in the Kingdom over His Father. Jesus is still King of Kings and Lord of Lords and His Father also is. They both reign forever along with the Spirit who is the Lord. (2Cor 3:17)

Zech 14:8 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the Eastern Sea and the other half toward the Western Sea, in summer and winter alike. 9 On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— the LORD alone, and His name alone.
Who is ruling over the earth? The LORD alone. Who is the LORD. The LORD is God and Jesus has inherited His Fathers name, the name above all names. (Heb 1:3, Phil 2:9)

Answered above. Jesus was not usurping the throne, in the end it is God who is the only redeemer and who is in control and we all, including the man Jesus, who sits on the throne with His Father forever, recognise that and should also recognise The Son and the Spirit as being in the Father, just as we should recognise the Father and Spirit as being in the Son, bodily and that the Father and Son are in the Spirit and so the Father and Son are omnipresent and come to live in us when we have the Spirit.

At least you don't seem to be saying that Jesus is an angel now, Michael the archangel.

Last part first... Did you insinuate that I was a JW? Where did you get that idea from... trying to pidgeon-hole me?

The rest... It seems you are cherry picking aspects of the scriptures, mixing them up, stirring left then right, then presenting them as an inedible mixture of collected nonsense.

I can see that what you have presented is not a reflection of a cohesive mindset concerning the scriptures and the relationship of truth between the verses you have selected.

You have also projected the end times into the present times so as to conclude seeing the Son seated as king over creation. In doing so, you have had to corrupt the relationship of the Father and His Holy Spirit with His Son, a man whom God made immortal and loved as a special (beloved) righteous one.

Jesus is HEIR to Almighty God. The heir does not sit on the same throne as the King, declaring himself as king... do you know who did seek to do so? What was his punishment for such audacious thinking. I would urge you to not go down that root... it sounds great as a disingenuous argument (having fun with genuine God fearing people) but it will not be good if you retain and cast abroad such a mindset.

I tried putting together the set of responses you gave for each part, and within each part, of your response ... nope! There was no integrity in it.

As is gleaned from the scriptures, Jesus is designated TO BE KING OVER THE CREATED WORLD... He will not be King over Heaven, the GREATER SPIRITUAL KINGDOM that His Spirit Father REIGNS over ETERNALLY. It has NOT occurred yet.

The acquisition comes AFTER Jesus sits temporarily IN POWER AND AUTHORITY (granted to him by the Father) to reign UNTIL the world is reconciled to him... whereupon he HANDS BACK the power and authority GRANTED to him BY THE FATHER, TO THE FATHER.

There will then be a period of time in which the reconciled world is TESTED for cohesiveness and to root out dissidents ... and THEN the judgement comes, which, again, THE Father GRANTS into the hands of Jesus.

Jesus judges the world and, himself, selects those whom he seems worthy, and GRANTS THEN Eternal life IN HIS CREATION KINGDOM.

At no time is Jesus EQUAL to the Father. The Father has been, is, and will eternally by KING OVER ALL (Heaven and Creation)... Hence, Jesus is ETERNAL HEIR to God.

An heir is not equal to the king to whom he is heir.

The NAME that Jesus is given, in my view, IS the same as the Father’s name: ‘YHWH’.

Now PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don’t knee jerk to that!!! This ‘name’ carries a MEANING... and that is “I am”. But it does not mean that because Father and Son have the same name they are then equal or the same person!

What it does mean is that both have the same designation: ETERNAL RULERS [of their respective kingdoms]. They will NEVER CHANGE and are COMPLETE in their being. And this is what YHWH told Moses:

“‘I am t/what I am’, THEREFORE tell [the children of Israel] that ‘I am’ has sent you!”

Is it not clear what the Lord God said to Moses, how He described himself: ‘I am complete in myself, what name describes me, me who is everything righteous and true. I designate the name ‘I am’ as that name’

Now, I think that is such a beautiful name and the meaning is totally clear in its projection. It is such a small word / name yet it is like peeping through a pinhole into a vast eternal universe.

“But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. ...” (Hebrews 10:12-13)

The verse says that Jesus is CURRENTLY sitting in power and authority reconciling the world to himself. This does not make him KING - it makes him a delegate to God - doing what God has designated him to do... EQUALS cannot designate to each other since each would ALREADY have the position, the power, and the authority in themselves.

Indeed, such a multiple rulership is purely ridiculous and trinity desperately tries to get round this by claiming that there is RANK among EQUALS... desperation indeed... which borders onto the issue of God GRANTING Jesus what Jesus has, and Jesus GRANTING the Holy Spirit to ‘Take from what is mine’.

What Jesus was saying was that the Father granted him power and authority over all things.., and that, THROUGH the Holy Spirit of God, aspects of that power and authority would be GRANTED to the apostles.

And we know this to be true (As the righteousness of Jesus is Truth) when GIFTS of the Holy Spirit were put upon the apostles at Pentecost.

“All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you." (John 16:15)
“For you [Father] granted him [Jesus speaking of himself] authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17:3)
“I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.” (John 17:4... the earthly work finished. The heavenly is still to come!)
“that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” (John 17:21... ‘in [each other]’ simply means that they agree entirely... it is not a mysterious Union of God and man since Jesus desires that the apostles, in fact, all who believe in God, and in Christ (John 17:3) may ALSO be in them (God and Christ)... are the believers also going to be ‘God’? No, that is Silly!)

Redemptionsong · May 10, 2021

Soapy said:
The writer is calling Almighty God; the Father, ‘Lord’. Clearly, ‘His Christ’ (which is ‘His ANOINTED ONE’) is the Son, Jesus.

As I read it, the verse speaks of the time when the Son (The Christ) restores the kingdom of God (the whole of everything, the reconciliation) so God is is ‘All in all’: Almighty:

“When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.” (1 Cor 15:28)

Now, I accept what you say here, but only because the Spirit of the Son is ONE with the Spirit of the Father. In other words, once the job of redemption is complete, there is no more need for a Son to be on earth. In 1 Corinthians 15:25, it says 'For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.' This is clearly a reference to Christ reigning on earth, and putting the enemies of God under his feet. When redemption is complete, as verse 28 states, there are no more enemies to conquer, and the Son can happily be reunited with the Father as one Spirit. It is in this spiritual unity that the Father and Son continue their reign, 'so that God may be all in all.'

My issue is with those who claim that God was not in Christ reconciling the world to himself. The Spirit of the Father is one with the Son, just as the Spirit of the Father is one with the Holy Spirit. The essence, of love, is the same, and the purpose or will of the three is the same. God is one.

Soapy · May 10, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
Now, I accept what you say here, but only because the Spirit of the Son is ONE with the Spirit of the Father. In other words, once the job of redemption is complete, there is no more need for a Son to be on earth. In 1 Corinthians 15:25, it says 'For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.' This is clearly a reference to Christ reigning on earth, and putting the enemies of God under his feet. When redemption is complete, as verse 28 states, there are no more enemies to conquer, and the Son can happily be reunited with the Father as one Spirit. It is in this spiritual unity that the Father and Son continue their reign, 'so that God may be all in all.'

My issue is with those who claim that God was not in Christ reconciling the world to himself. The Spirit of the Father is one with the Son, just as the Spirit of the Father is one with the Holy Spirit. The essence, of love, is the same, and the purpose or will of the three is the same. God is one.

You mean that people who read the scriptures are saying that God was not in Christ?

Well, likely they are thinking anthropologically because they cannot understand spiritual things.

On your other issues. I’m not seeing the aspect of God and Christ uniting in spiritually so that God will be all in all. The verse has no such connotation. It really is far simpler in that God takes back the power and authority he granted to his Son. God STEPPED BACK during the reign of Jesus reconciling the world to himself. When a delegator delegates, he does not interfere in the affairs of the delegated.

When the assignment is complete, the delegated hands the authority and power to carry out the task back to him who delegated it to him. The delegator now possesses completely all that he had: this is the ‘all in all’ (including that which was reconciled - the world, in this case).

The delegator then rewards the delegated person - as you might expect. The world, physical creation, is a RESTRICTED and limited world in comparison to the unlimited spiritual realm. God proposed that if requires a HUMAN RULER. A righteous and holy man. One that proves that he is worthy:

“You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

You can spot the deliberate trinitarian spin (or maybe not!). The verse, Trinitarians claim, is calling Jesus, “God”.... NO IT IS NOT!

It says, ‘God, YOUR GOD’, or: ‘God, he who is your God” because, for sure, ‘GOD’ is not ANOINTED. God is not ‘CHRIST’.

The problem with trinity believers is the endless depth they go to in disbelieving clear and obvious truth text if they are told that it must be believed in a trinity context. Common sense go straight out the window.

GOD, a spirit being, created a physical world for his own pleasure. To reflect himself in it he created human beings as an image of himself. And just as himself, he proposed that this created world should be ruled by one from the same status: physical: a man, righteous and holy as himself.

The spirit king to rule the spirit world - and the physical man to rule the physical world.

The created world glorifies the spirit king and the spirit king blesses and glorifies the physical world and its king.

All the world WORSHIPS the spirit king.

All the created world praises, glorifies, and honours the physical king and the spirit king.

All the physical world WORSHIPS the Spirit king, alone.

There’s nothing more to that nutshell summary.

Redemptionsong · May 10, 2021

Soapy said:
You mean that people who read the scriptures are saying that God was not in Christ?

Well, likely they are thinking anthropologically because they cannot understand spiritual things.

On your other issues. I’m not seeing the aspect of God and Christ uniting in spiritually so that God will be all in all. The verse has no such connotation. It really is far simpler in that God takes back the power and authority he granted to his Son. God STEPPED BACK during the reign of Jesus reconciling the world to himself. When a delegator delegates, he does not interfere in the affairs of the delegated.

When the assignment is complete, the delegated hands the authority and power to carry out the task back to him who delegated it to him. The delegator now possesses completely all that he had: this is the ‘all in all’ (including that which was reconciled - the world, in this case).

The delegator then rewards the delegated person - as you might expect. The world, physical creation, is a RESTRICTED and limited world in comparison to the unlimited spiritual realm. God proposed that if requires a HUMAN RULER. A righteous and holy man. One that proves that he is worthy:

“You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

You can spot the deliberate trinitarian spin (or maybe not!). The verse, Trinitarians claim, is calling Jesus, “God”.... NO IT IS NOT!

It says, ‘God, YOUR GOD’, or: ‘God, he who is your God” because, for sure, ‘GOD’ is not ANOINTED. God is not ‘CHRIST’.

The problem with trinity believers is the endless depth they go to in disbelieving clear and obvious truth text if they are told that it must be believed in a trinity context. Common sense go straight out the window.

GOD, a spirit being, created a physical world for his own pleasure. To reflect himself in it he created human beings as an image of himself. And just as himself, he proposed that this created world should be ruled by one from the same status: physical: a man, righteous and holy as himself.

The spirit king to rule the spirit world - and the physical man to rule the physical world.

The created world glorifies the spirit king and the spirit king blesses and glorifies the physical world and its king.

All the world WORSHIPS the spirit king.

All the created world praises, glorifies, and honours the physical king and the spirit king.

All the physical world WORSHIPS the Spirit king, alone.

There’s nothing more to that nutshell summary.

So, tell me, who is the LORD of the 23rd Psalm? Is it God the Father, or is it Christ?

moorea944 · May 10, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
So, tell me, who is the LORD of the 23rd Psalm? Is it God the Father, or is it Christ?

The LORD is Yahweh, not Jesus. Why would you think it would be Jesus, he wasnt even born yet.

Soapy · May 11, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
So, tell me, who is the LORD of the 23rd Psalm? Is it God the Father, or is it Christ?

Moorea944 answer for me - and I endorse the post.

Yes, the ‘LORD’, in Psalm 23:1 and in Psalm 23:6, ‘YHWH’.

———————————
(for information only)

It is a surprise question from you (or anyone who claims knowledge of scriptures!) since it is WIDELY known snd accepted by every denomination that ‘LORD’ (capitalised as it is) is simply a method the Bible translators used to avoid writing, and therefore Speaking, the name (proper noun) of God: ‘YHWH’, transliterated as ‘Yahweh’ or ‘Jehovah’ (or choose your own!!).

The other normally written TITLE of ‘Lord’ (capital ‘L’ only) simply means, ‘Master’, or such as addressing someone of a reputable worthy high rank: a judge, or master of a house, a great teacher, etc. Or preface to emphasise an even greater respect: ‘Lord God’ (as is known, ‘LORD God’ would mean, ‘YHWH God’, ‘God whose name is YHWH’).

Further, ‘lord’, uncapitalised) would apply to a much less referenced person or even a shocking situation: ‘Oh my lord, what’s going on here!!’; ‘That guy thought he could lord it over those who were his betters!’

Redemptionsong · May 11, 2021

Soapy said:
Moorea944 answer for me - and I endorse the post.

Yes, the ‘LORD’, in Psalm 23:1 and in Psalm 23:6, ‘YHWH’.

———————————
(for information only)

It is a surprise question from you (or anyone who claims knowledge of scriptures!) since it is WIDELY known snd accepted by every denomination that ‘LORD’ (capitalised as it is) is simply a method the Bible translators used to avoid writing, and therefore Speaking, the name (proper noun) of God: ‘YHWH’, transliterated as ‘Yahweh’ or ‘Jehovah’ (or choose your own!!).

The other normally written TITLE of ‘Lord’ (capital ‘L’ only) simply means, ‘Master’, or such as addressing someone of a reputable worthy high rank: a judge, or master of a house, a great teacher, etc. Or preface to emphasise an even greater respect: ‘Lord God’ (as is known, ‘LORD God’ would mean, ‘YHWH God’, ‘God whose name is YHWH’).

Further, ‘lord’, uncapitalised) would apply to a much less referenced person or even a shocking situation: ‘Oh my lord, what’s going on here!!’; ‘That guy thought he could lord it over those who were his betters!’

Ezekiel 34:23. 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; and he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.'

Ezekiel 37:24. 'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.'

Ezekiel prophesied many years after king David, so it's clear that these prophecies were about Jesus Christ, 'my servant David'. God, the LORD, sets up 'one shepherd', who will 'be their shepherd'.

Why do you, given that there is only one shepherd, continue to say that the 23rd Psalm is not about Jesus Christ? Are you suggesting that there is one shepherd in heaven, and another on earth? If so, that means that there are two shepherds, and not one.

Soapy · May 12, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
Ezekiel 34:23. 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; and he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.'

Ezekiel 37:24. 'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.'

Ezekiel prophesied many years after king David, so it's clear that these prophecies were about Jesus Christ, 'my servant David'. God, the LORD, sets up 'one shepherd', who will 'be their shepherd'.

Why do you, given that there is only one shepherd, continue to say that the 23rd Psalm is not about Jesus Christ? Are you suggesting that there is one shepherd in heaven, and another on earth? If so, that means that there are two shepherds, and not one.

I am pleased to see you asking these questions. It seems as though you are seeking - and I’m happy to help you find.

Ezekiel 34:23. 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; and he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.'

Who is the ‘speaker’? Is it not, “I, the LORD” (“I, YHWH”)?

Yes. So YHWH will set up one shepherd over them, set up king David, prophesying Jesus.

Notice that David is called God’s Servant just as Jesus is God’s Servant (Isaiah 42:1).

The people are human beings - David is a human being (a Prince among human beings). At no time is any mention or alluding to a Spirit being or worse, GOD, Himself.

”I, YHWH, will be their God.”, says YHWH.

Says it all.

Ezekiel prophesied many years after king David, so it's clear that these prophecies were about Jesus Christ, 'my servant David'. God, the LORD, sets up 'one shepherd', who will 'be their shepherd'.

The PROPHESY, Yes... was concerning the coming MESSIAH.

And the Messiah, Jesus, claimed himself as that ‘Shepherd’ - the Shepherd just as YHWH had prophesied. Jesus is the one (The shepherd) to lead the people (Sheep) of God into the sheepfold of God (The owner of the sheep). The shepherd is a SERVANT of the sheep owner).

Why do you, given that there is only one shepherd, continue to say that the 23rd Psalm is not about Jesus Christ? Are you suggesting that there is one shepherd in heaven, and another on earth? If so, that means that there are two shepherds, and not one.

David was speaking about his God. David was not a prophet. Ezekiel WAS a prophet.
David was singing a poem concerning his God leading him in safety as a good shepherd leads his sheep in tranquility.

Ezekiel prophesies about a coming time in which a servant of Yhwh will lead the people like he, YHWH, led king David.

At no time is YHWH anything other than the God of king David. YHWH says he will send a servant (Isaiah 42;1) to be the shepherd who leads his sheep back to the fold.

Yhwh is the overall ‘Shepherd’, and the Messiah, is the delegated ‘Shepherd’. It is the same as a Principsl who says he pledges to teach every child in his school fundamental knowledge - but delegates this claim to AN ACTUAL TEACHER. At the top level, the principal is the first cause as he instructs the teacher in his duty... just as Jesus is instructed by Jesus as to his duty:

“I can only do what I see my Father doing”

moorea944 · May 13, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
Ezekiel 34:23. 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; and he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.'

Psalms 23 is about God, not Jesus. Not sure why your not understanding that one. Back then, before Jesus was even born yet, God was their shepherd, King, rock, savoir, etc...... Do you know who was the first king of Israel was? It was God. God said he would be their King. Then of course we have Saul, then David.

David was also a shepherd to Israel back in the day too dont forget. "I will set up one shepherd"...... doesnt mean only one shepherd forever and for all times.... Your putting Jesus into everything and not looking into the context of the situation.

David was a shepherd, Jesus was a shepherd, the prophets were shepherds, we need to be shepherds in our churches too.

David was king and a shepherd. David will also be resurrection at the return of Christ, David's throne will be "restored" (2 Sam 7). David will still be a King, but not a king of the world like Christ will be. David will still be a shepherd in a certain community I'm sure, but not the whole world.

Soapy · May 13, 2021

Edit of Moorea944’s post

Redemptionsong said: ↑
Ezekiel 34:23. 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; and he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.'

Moorea944 replied:
Psalms 23 is about God, not Jesus. Not sure why your not understanding that one. Back then, before Jesus was even born yet, God was their shepherd, King, rock, savoir, etc...... Do you know who was the first king of Israel was? It was God. God said he would be their King. Then of course we have Saul, then David.

David was also a shepherd to Israel back in the day too dont forget. "I will set up one shepherd"...... doesnt mean only one shepherd forever and for all times.... Your putting Jesus into everything and not looking into the context of the situation.

David was a shepherd, Jesus was a shepherd, the prophets were shepherds, we need to be shepherds in our churches too.

David was king and a shepherd. David will also be resurrection at the return of Christ, David's throne will be "restored" (2 Sam 7). David will still be a King, but not a king of the world like Christ will be. David will still be a shepherd in a certain community I'm sure, but not the whole world.

Soapy · May 13, 2021

Soapy said:
Edit of Moorea944’s post

Moorea944 replied:
Psalms 23 is about God, not Jesus. Not sure why your not understanding that one. Back then, before Jesus was even born yet, God was their shepherd, King, rock, savoir, etc...... Do you know who was the first king of Israel was? It was God. God said he would be their King. Then of course we have Saul, then David.

David was also a shepherd to Israel back in the day too dont forget. "I will set up one shepherd"...... doesnt mean only one shepherd forever and for all times.... Your putting Jesus into everything and not looking into the context of the situation.

David was a shepherd, Jesus was a shepherd, the prophets were shepherds, we need to be shepherds in our churches too.

David was king and a shepherd. David will also be resurrection at the return of Christ, David's throne will be "restored" (2 Sam 7). David will still be a King, but not a king of the world like Christ will be. David will still be a shepherd in a certain community I'm sure, but not the whole world.

Moorea944, I totally agree with your post. I remembered David was a shepherd after I made my post but decided not to bother adding that point in as I was sure anyone who knows their scriptures would see the relationship between David, as Shepherd, caring for the sheep of his Father (... Ha! Jesse...!) and David alluding to himself as a Sheep being lead by HIS Shepherd, Yahweh God.

And you are obviously correct that context must be taken into account as to who is the Shepherd in each scenario: The Shepherd is an OFFICE and therefore is not limited to one individual in space and time.

Brian2 · May 13, 2021

Soapy said:
Moorea944 answer for me - and I endorse the post.

Yes, the ‘LORD’, in Psalm 23:1 and in Psalm 23:6, ‘YHWH’.

———————————
(for information only)

It is a surprise question from you (or anyone who claims knowledge of scriptures!) since it is WIDELY known snd accepted by every denomination that ‘LORD’ (capitalised as it is) is simply a method the Bible translators used to avoid writing, and therefore Speaking, the name (proper noun) of God: ‘YHWH’, transliterated as ‘Yahweh’ or ‘Jehovah’ (or choose your own!!).

The other normally written TITLE of ‘Lord’ (capital ‘L’ only) simply means, ‘Master’, or such as addressing someone of a reputable worthy high rank: a judge, or master of a house, a great teacher, etc. Or preface to emphasise an even greater respect: ‘Lord God’ (as is known, ‘LORD God’ would mean, ‘YHWH God’, ‘God whose name is YHWH’).

Further, ‘lord’, uncapitalised) would apply to a much less referenced person or even a shocking situation: ‘Oh my lord, what’s going on here!!’; ‘That guy thought he could lord it over those who were his betters!’

Who is the angel of Exodus 3 who appeared to Moses in the bush and called Himself Yahweh?
If all things were created through Jesus who is creating man in Gen 2?

Brian2 · May 13, 2021

Soapy said:
Last part first... Did you insinuate that I was a JW? Where did you get that idea from... trying to pidgeon-hole me?

Probably trying to pigeon hole you. It saves time but I thought you probably were not JW.

Soapy said:
You have also projected the end times into the present times so as to conclude seeing the Son seated as king over creation. In doing so, you have had to corrupt the relationship of the Father and His Holy Spirit with His Son, a man whom God made immortal and loved as a special (beloved) righteous one.

More than that. He has inherited the name above all names so that all in heaven and on earth would worship Him. (Heb 1:3 Phil 2)

Soapy said:
Jesus is HEIR to Almighty God. The heir does not sit on the same throne as the King, declaring himself as king... do you know who did seek to do so? What was his punishment for such audacious thinking. I would urge you to not go down that root... it sounds great as a disingenuous argument (having fun with genuine God fearing people) but it will not be good if you retain and cast abroad such a mindset.

In Revelation Jesus is in the midst of the same throne that the Father sits on. Jesus rules over the Kingdom of God and hands the Kingdom back to the Father at the end and subjects Himself to God so that His God is all and in all (1Cor 15) Jesus was exalted and given the throne but Jesus is still a man and has so has a God, He Father. He has both the nature of a servant and the nature of God. Before He became a man He was not a servant of God and had to take on that nature. (Phil 2) When He was in His mother's womb His Father became His God. (Ps 22:10)
The Kingdom at the end is given back to His Father but Jesus throne is everlasting and that throne is the throne of God. God is the one who sits on the throne of David as King and God and now the throne is occupied by the one who is both God and man and to whom it belongs. (Gen 49:10)

I tried putting together the set of responses you gave for each part, and within each part, of your response ... nope! There was no integrity in it.

Soapy said:
As is gleaned from the scriptures, Jesus is designated TO BE KING OVER THE CREATED WORLD... He will not be King over Heaven, the GREATER SPIRITUAL KINGDOM that His Spirit Father REIGNS over ETERNALLY. It has NOT occurred yet.

The acquisition comes AFTER Jesus sits temporarily IN POWER AND AUTHORITY (granted to him by the Father) to reign UNTIL the world is reconciled to him... whereupon he HANDS BACK the power and authority GRANTED to him BY THE FATHER, TO THE FATHER.

Jesus has all power and authority in heaven and on earth. (Matt 28) He is the firstborn over all creation (Col 1:15,16) All creation includes angels and whoever and whatever else there is.

Soapy said:
At no time is Jesus EQUAL to the Father. The Father has been, is, and will eternally by KING OVER ALL (Heaven and Creation)... Hence, Jesus is ETERNAL HEIR to God.

An heir is not equal to the king to whom he is heir.

Jesus is at all times equal to His Father in nature.

Soapy said:

“But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. ...” (Hebrews 10:12-13)

Click to expand...

Soapy said:
The verse says that Jesus is CURRENTLY sitting in power and authority reconciling the world to himself. This does not make him KING - it makes him a delegate to God - doing what God has designated him to do... EQUALS cannot designate to each other since each would ALREADY have the position, the power, and the authority in themselves.

A Father can designate to His Son who is also a man. Why hasn't the Father, the only true God in whom is His Son and Spirit and who is the source of the Son and Spirit got the natural authority due a Father?

Soapy said:

(John 17:21... ‘in [each other]’ simply means that they agree entirely... it is not a mysterious Union of God and man since Jesus desires that the apostles, in fact, all who believe in God, and in Christ (John 17:3) may ALSO be in them (God and Christ)... are the believers also going to be ‘God’? No, that is Silly!)

Click to expand...

The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father and they are "one". "One" is neuter. They are one thing, It means more than that they agree on everything. There is but one Spirit (Eph 4:4) and the Spirit of God is that Spirit and the Lord is that Spirit (2Cor 3:17) and when we are born of that Spirit of God we have both the Father and Son dwelling in us. (John 14:15-17, 23) When we have that Spirit in us we are spiritually joined to the Lord Jesus and so we become His body and are joined spiritually to each other. (1Cor 6:17) We do partake of the divine nature (2Peter 1:4) but we cannot become God, we are human and limited but in Christ, in whom dwell the fullness of absolute deity in bodily form (Col 2:9) we have a fullness (Col 2:10)
It is Yahweh alone who will be King over the earth. Where is Jesus, He also is King over the earth?
Zech 14:8And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the Eastern Sea and the other half toward the Western Sea, in summer and winter alike. 9On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— the LORD alone, and His name alone.

Soapy · May 13, 2021

Brian2 said:
Who is the angel of Exodus 3 who appeared to Moses in the bush and called Himself Yahweh?
If all things were created through Jesus who is creating man in Gen 2?

These questions seem completely random...

The Angel was sent by God to deliver the word of God to Moses. Angels, typically, are unnamed except in certain circumstances. This was not one of those circumstances.

Who said that Jesus created everything? Certainly not me nor anyone in any scriptures in any credible Bible verse.

But who is created man? YHWH God created man in His image. God ‘breathed’ the enlivening spirit into the lifeless body of Adam.

We read constantly about the volatility of the flesh (the body): ‘From dust it came - and to dust in returns’ (paraphrased) and so it is likely that God was speaking to the Angel who later became known as ‘[The] Satan’. We know that the angels could create a human-like body because the rebellious angels ‘created bodies for themselves’ but could not put an INDEPENDENT enlivening spirit into it so they put THEIR OWN spirit (themselves) into the lifeless bodies to make them ‘Living Souls’. They then ‘married’ human females to give rise to the Nephilims.

It is likely the creation of a human body by Satan, according to God’s instructions, was the reason Satan desired worship from mankind as God received worship:

‘I helped you create man, why am I not worshipped also from him that we created’ (suggested)

This desired brought Satan to sin against God.

And, by the way, ‘SATAN’ is not the angel’s name. ‘Satan’ is just a description of the sin that the Angel committed. It means, ‘Adversary’, and should, ideally be written as ‘The’ or ‘A’ Satan. But since this Angel was the highest and most glorious Angel created by God, he is infamously immortalised with that as a name. But, of course, anyone who is an adversary against truth and righteousness, is a Satan.

moorea944 · May 13, 2021

Brian2 said:
Who is the angel of Exodus 3 who appeared to Moses in the bush and called Himself Yahweh?
If all things were created through Jesus who is creating man in Gen 2?

We dont know the angel's name in Exodus 3. Angels of God's Presence maybe? Also, dont forget, that angels can speak for God. They represent God in power and authority. God is talking through the angel.

So who created man? It was God who did. Angels (Elohim) where also there to create with God's help of course. And God said, Let us...... Who is us? In the orginal language it says, and the Elohim said.... God and the angels.

We know that the angels are the Elohim. Psalms 8 and many other verses. Man can be Elohim too in certain cases. The Judges were, Levi priests were, because they brought the word of God to the people. And Jesus was made a little lower than the Elohim or Angels.....

Soapy · May 13, 2021

Brian2 said:
Probably trying to pigeon hole you. It saves time but I thought you probably were not JW.

More than that. He has inherited the name above all names so that all in heaven and on earth would worship Him. (Heb 1:3 Phil 2)

In Revelation Jesus is in the midst of the same throne that the Father sits on. Jesus rules over the Kingdom of God and hands the Kingdom back to the Father at the end and subjects Himself to God so that His God is all and in all (1Cor 15) Jesus was exalted and given the throne but Jesus is still a man and has so has a God, He Father. He has both the nature of a servant and the nature of God. Before He became a man He was not a servant of God and had to take on that nature. (Phil 2) When He was in His mother's womb His Father became His God. (Ps 22:10)
The Kingdom at the end is given back to His Father but Jesus throne is everlasting and that throne is the throne of God. God is the one who sits on the throne of David as King and God and now the throne is occupied by the one who is both God and man and to whom it belongs. (Gen 49:10)

I tried putting together the set of responses you gave for each part, and within each part, of your response ... nope! There was no integrity in it.

Jesus has all power and authority in heaven and on earth. (Matt 28) He is the firstborn over all creation (Col 1:15,16) All creation includes angels and whoever and whatever else there is.

Jesus is at all times equal to His Father in nature.
A Father can designate to His Son who is also a man. Why hasn't the Father, the only true God in whom is His Son and Spirit and who is the source of the Son and Spirit got the natural authority due a Father?

The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father and they are "one". "One" is neuter. They are one thing, It means more than that they agree on everything. There is but one Spirit (Eph 4:4) and the Spirit of God is that Spirit and the Lord is that Spirit (2Cor 3:17) and when we are born of that Spirit of God we have both the Father and Son dwelling in us. (John 14:15-17, 23) When we have that Spirit in us we are spiritually joined to the Lord Jesus and so we become His body and are joined spiritually to each other. (1Cor 6:17) We do partake of the divine nature (2Peter 1:4) but we cannot become God, we are human and limited but in Christ, in whom dwell the fullness of absolute deity in bodily form (Col 2:9) we have a fullness (Col 2:10)
It is Yahweh alone who will be King over the earth. Where is Jesus, He also is King over the earth?
Zech 14:8And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the Eastern Sea and the other half toward the Western Sea, in summer and winter alike. 9On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— the LORD alone, and His name alone.

I can see you are still mixing up different event times and attributing wrongful roles and positions to God and Jesus.

The last part ... ‘On that day YAHWEH will become king over the earth - Yahweh alone, and his name alone.’

There is no mystery there. The prophet is referring to ‘other Gods’. The kingdom of HEAVEN is already GOD’s kingdom. He already rules there. It is the kingdom of earth (creation) that is in rebellious turmoil. Satan has inspired many in mankind to set up false Gods as rulers over earth - but the prophet says that at the end of time there will be only one GOD: Yahweh (‘The LORD’) who rules over earth.

Do not be confused. Jesus WILL BE the Ruler over creation. But remember that creation (earth) is WITHIN the kingdom of HEAVEN... so the ruler of heaven is ALSO the OVER-ruler of any kingdom within:
A son might be ‘ruler’ over his bedroom BUT dad is STILL RULER over the house that bedroom is in... and consequently ultimately Over-ruler of the son’s room.

Brian2 · May 13, 2021

Soapy said:
These questions seem completely random...

The Angel was sent by God to deliver the word of God to Moses. Angels, typically, are unnamed except in certain circumstances. This was not one of those circumstances.

The angels says that He is Yahweh. Yahweh sent Yahweh. Interesting.

Soapy said:
Who said that Jesus created everything? Certainly not me nor anyone in any scriptures in any credible Bible verse.

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
This passage along with others tell us that Jesus was not created and did not come into existence. He has always been and ALL things that came into existence came into existence though Him.

Isa 44:24
“This is what the Lord says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the Lord,
the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens,
who spreads out the earth by myself,
This passage tells us that Yahweh alone stretches out the heavens and earth.
Heb 1:10 And: “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11They will perish, but You remain; they will all wear out like a garment.…
These 2 together show us that Jesus is Yahweh who spreads out the heavens and earth.

Soapy said:
But who is created man? YHWH God created man in His image. God ‘breathed’ the enlivening spirit into the lifeless body of Adam.

If Jesus is Yahweh who spread out the heavens why is it not Jesus who formed man and breathed life into him?

YHWH: Worship ONE GOD, not MANY GODS. Worship Me, alone!

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