Does Jesus say it as Roman Catholicism teaches? I'm mean explicitly? .This isn't the trinity or anything complicated, that couldn't be explained after . Notice ,Jesus does explain things simply after ,even when at first its a parable, ect .
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All roads lead to the same God ?
- Thread starter John1.12
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joelr
Well-Known Member
Ok. So first regarding you making right choices among a zillion possible wrong ones, that is incorrect. (Not to be nit-picking, this is an actual point). There is a finite amount of wrong choices and for life to form we have a universe that fits the bill for how many tries are needed. I'm sure you are aware of how many possible chances self evolving compounds had just on early earth but you also have to add the rest of the habitable planets as well. The natural laws can account for everything we see. Those laws could have possibly evolved or run infinite amounts of variations in previous universes or a multi-verse.
But I also understand that in case someone is fully content, if not happy, being guided only by the instructions that are embedded in his living flesh, searching anything else would be like searching an 'unneeded baggage', as you said.
But, truth be told, I know why you wrote me "Adding a supernatural element to this is unneeded baggage". It happens that you cannot imagine someone searching his Maker, he does it just for knowledge and nothing but knowledge (as he does at a scientific university). To please your curiosity, the Will/Energy behind my existence doesn't need my worship and praise in public, also doesn't impose on me any rule to obey or ritual to observe.
In brief, and just for your knowledge, I don't have in my reality any of the supernatural elements you used hearing of
But there is no evidence for a creator? Do you find the need for a creator of life or for the entire natural laws of nature?
I don't understand the point because I demonstrated that there was a Rabbi before Jesus who was teaching the golden rule, non-judgment, love of others and so on. Early Judaism was very diverse and parallels to Jesus teachings are in the OT. But we know there already was this love and peace movement before 0AD.
So a Greek/Jewish professional writer summed up this wisdom in a story that used Hellenistic and Persian myths that were super common at that time.
If you want to understand that -
Petra Pakkanen, Interpreting Early Hellenistic Religion.
and Mary Boyce - Zoroastrianism: Religion and Practices
They were not known as Jews. Jesus said he was not here to abolish law. Sure Jesus talks about love but also hell and never take an oath and all sorts of strange stuff. I just watched Dale Allison give a lecture on the Sermon on the Mount on youtube.
All ancient cultures have a mythology that teaches about all aspects of life. Joseph Campbell Power of Myth is a great source to learn many important ideas from many cultures. None of the Gods in the stories are real however.
I don't follow but I find many great lessons in old stories if that is your point.
About Hell, Jesus called it just 'Everlasting Fire'; big difference as we will see. Jesus reminds me that whoever was created to serve the material world only and whoever couldn't feed his living soul with true love and, therefore, lets it die, he will simply return back, at the end, to the state of void, the raw state before his birth. As you know, when we found out that certain things are no more useful to us in any way, we just get ride of them for good. The best way we can do it is by throwing them into fire and let them return back to their raw state; surely not to torture them
I understand there are different interpretations. What you are saying isn't much better. Not everyone is able to "feed their soul with love" so they automatically get a different afterlife? Or some cosmic judge figures it out? Both sound like myths.
Revelations is about the end of the world. Magic blood sacrifice is needed to get many things done in the OT and the NT is the final form of it. If you are going to re-interpret the Bible then you can just say it's all a metaphor to live a better life and take whats good and leave the rest.
Thank for your comments.
It is not your will or mine that we were brought on the same planet and we have to perceive life on it in two different ways, if not opposite sometimes.
In other words, you cannot convince me that you are not real happy the way you are. And I can never convince you that I am real happy the way I am.
Cheers,
Kerim
Note: Also no one of my friends perceives life as I do.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
So you are referring to Pauline-Christianity (of the magic salvation based on faith) and not to what Jesus says on the Gospel (revealing crucial natural rules; an act which is taboo even in the today freest nations).
Now let us talk about the word SON.
I didn't hear anyone in the world saying that ‘desert’ should have a wife when someone tells him "I am son of desert'". Why? Because he knows in advance what desert is and deduces that his guest came from a desert land, his usual home land.
I also didn't hear anyone in the world saying that ‘sin’ should have a wife when people say this person is 'son of sin'; Why? Because they know in advance what the word sin, in this expression, means. Don't you?
So I am not surprised, at all, when you, or anyone else, say that God should have a wife just because Jesus is 'Son of God". Why? Because I know already that most people in the world have no interest, in the first place, in knowing what the word ‘God’ in this expression means really. Otherwise they would know why the human race was allowed to exist; thanks to some predefined instructions/rules of evolution.
By the way the story of Adam and Eve was addressed to some of our primitive ancestors (kids of humanity) to introduce, in a simple way (as we do with our little kids), some elementary ideas about Creation (the same method is used when our kids need to start learning Math, Physics... etc).
Anyway, I don't expect someone gets what I explore here unless I remind him what he knows already
So, one is not a follower of Pauline-Christianity, but one's intention is to follow Jesus and his teachings. I like one's intention, if I get it correctly. Right?
Regards
joelr
Well-Known Member
Planets, rocks, trees, animals, people, there doesn't need to be a "will" that brought these things to where they are. We have a natural mechanism where things can happen due to natural laws.
I'm not interested in who's happy. I'm interested in what's true. If you say you are happy that's good. Finding some truths about the universe doesn't always cause happiness. Especially if they contradict belief systems.
Sorry, I am not sure what you mean by the word 'follower' exactly.
Do you mean that if someone agrees with a teacher of Math or Physics, for example, on what he heard from him, he became a follower of this teacher?
As any other human, I was born with total ignorance. So when I was a kid, I had to have faith in my parents and teachers at school in order to perceive better the world into which I was brought; no matter if their knowledge was right or wrong about certain things.
Then, while growing up, faith was replaced gradually with reason. So in order to include an idea, scientific or else, in my set of knowledge it had to pass first my logical reasoning. But since my logical reasoning evolves with time, I used revising my accepted ideas, once a while, and update/adjust them, as I do in my various designs. Naturally, after 7 decades, my logic reached its saturation state (with the hope I will die before it starts degrading!).
The reason I didn't call myself Christian is that Jesus sayings on the Gospel helped me got what I may call 'science of reality'. What do I need more? It happens that I saw in Jesus the perfect teacher I was looking for (perfect, relative to my needs). Does this mean I am following Him or I am with Him, like a student with his teacher or even like a son with his father?
In my vocabulary, 'a follower', in religions/politics, could be understood as replacing the old expression 'a faithful obedient worshiper/servant'.
On my side, while I walk in life and in the world's jungle under the Light of Knowledge, I doesn't need following anyone. Also, after I became professional in electronics design, I didn't need following any scientific or joining any formal group of engineers to know what to do in my private business.
In brief, Jesus, to me, is a source of knowledge that saved me from my natural ignorance; not a magical destination (Salvation by Faith).
For instance, 'science of reality' doesn't have to be the same for every human. Science of reality, as revealed by Jesus, may interest just a few persons in the world, as a few scientists were able to learn the science of nuclear energy in order to take advantage of its applications.
I guess you like me deduce that these natural laws, in turn, exist by another natural mechanism where things can happen due to other natural laws. And it was possible for these other natural laws to exist thanks to a certain natural mechanism where things can happen due to certain natural laws... etc.
I am afraid that if certain scientists believe this sort of thinking, I prefer to be ignorant of their science. I can't believe in supernatural mechanism/laws loops
In my science, I try my best just to discover these natural rules that define my existence and the universe into which I was brought, as I try my best to discover on which rules/algorithms my computer was made by its company so that I can take advantage of it the most.Back to the computer analogy, on my side I like finding, as much as possible, the truths that define its structure while knowing there is a company that made it.
On your side, you may also like finding, as much as possible, the truths that define its structure though without being interested at all in what could be behind its existence.
As you see, the difference, between you and I, is not that important. This explains why it is possible for you and I to be happy the way we are despite of our difference.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Following means, I understand, to pursue a person in/with reason not blindly. One is doing a good thing, I agree; but Pauline-Christianity is different. I congratulate one. Right?
Regards
I like adding a side note. Good and evil things are man-made notions which are based on one's natural instincts. For example, if we ask many persons about 'killing', are you sure we get the same response? To many persons, 'killing' could also be a good reaction if done for self defense and even a great achievement if it serves the interests of an earthly kingdom, religious or political, as in wars.
So I won't be surprised that 'loving enemies', as revealed and lived by Jesus, is non-sense, speaking practically, to almost all humans on earth (Christian or else), if not seen as evil (an act of treason) to those who play the masters on their common people.
I mean Jesus is my teacher because we both agree on what is good and not good for me. For example, I didn't get married, not because Jesus didn't have a wife but because I can't have a life with a person based on a law (a contract, religious or civil, which should be approved by the will of a 3rd party; a certain authority), not true love (based on the will of two independent free persons). Fortunately, my earthly father (died when I was 9) didn't mind living with my mother (to whom he was attracted) after a Catholic formal marriage, otherwise I wouldn't be here
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
So one is definitely out of the 32000+ Pauline-Christianity denominations (including JWs, LDS and Bahaism) and is not an Atheist but a believer, I understand. Right?I like adding a side note. Good and evil things are man-made notions which are based on one's natural instincts. For example, if we ask many persons about 'killing', are you sure we get the same response? To many persons, 'killing' could also be a good reaction if done for self defense and even a great achievement if it serves the interests of an earthly kingdom, religious or political, as in wars.
So I won't be surprised that 'loving enemies', as revealed and lived by Jesus, is non-sense, speaking practically, to almost all humans on earth (Christian or else), if not seen as evil (an act of treason) to those who play the masters on their common people.
I mean Jesus is my teacher because we both agree on what is good and not good for me. For example, I didn't get married, not because Jesus didn't have a wife but because I can't have a life with a person based on a law (a contract, religious or civil, which should be approved by the will of a 3rd party; a certain authority), not true love (based on the will of two independent free persons). Fortunately, my earthly father (died when I was 9) didn't mind living with my mother (to whom he was attracted) after a Catholic formal marriage, otherwise I wouldn't be here
Regards
You surprised me
You are the 1st person I met in RF who got almost fully what Jesus is to me.But you used the word 'believer', so I hope it doesn't mean I also believe that Jesus expects me to worship, praise or obey Him; like believers in any formal religion do with their God.
I know how to trust and love only, speaking spiritually.
And the only holy thing I have in life is the Holy Spirit I have accepted in me to guide my flesh (instead of its natural instincts of survival) so that my soul can be a real image of my Father in Heaven who makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends his rain on the just and on the unjust.
But this is not easy at all to live this way in the world's jungle if one couldn't have first the 'perfect' knowledge about life and the real world (perfect, relative to his needs). This is why Jesus came in person in a human flesh to give me the user's manual of life and the real world because no man can do it perfectly.
(The good news is that no one has a reason to be jealous of me because every human has a certain teacher, if not teachers, whom he is very proud of; this applies on theists and atheists.)
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
KerimF said," But you used the word 'believer', so I hope it doesn't mean I also believe that Jesus expects me to worship, praise or obey Him; like believers in any formal religion do with their God."You surprised me
But you used the word 'believer', so I hope it doesn't mean I also believe that Jesus expects me to worship, praise or obey Him; like believers in any formal religion do with their God.
I know how to trust and love only, speaking spiritually.
And the only holy thing I have in life is the Holy Spirit I have accepted in me to guide my flesh (instead of its natural instincts of survival) so that my soul can be a real image of my Father in Heaven who makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends his rain on the just and on the unjust.
But this is not easy at all to live this way in the world's jungle if one couldn't have first the 'perfect' knowledge about life and the real world (perfect, relative to his needs). This is why Jesus came in person in a human flesh to give me the user's manual of life and the real world because no man can do it perfectly.
(The good news is that no one has a reason to be jealous of me because every human has a certain teacher, if not teachers, whom he is very proud of; this applies on theists and atheists.)
I never expected one to worship Jesus. Jesus didn't say anybody to worship Jesus or to pray to Jesus. How could Jesus say it to anybody when he himself prayed and worshiped to "God-the-Father"? Right on the Cross Jesus prayed to and worshiped "God-the-Father". Right?
Any body and everybody who prays to and worships "God-the-Father", not Jesus is a believer, I understand. Right?
Regards
joelr
Well-Known Member
Who said that? We currently don't know what's before/beyond the big bang? Or what started the natural laws. Invoking a myth to fix the problem without ways to make tests and predictions isn't getting anyone to truth.
I am afraid that if certain scientists believe this sort of thinking, I prefer to be ignorant of their science. I can't believe in supernatural mechanism/laws loops
Again, computers are made by people. The universe is doing just fine creating itself. We simply don't know everything.
when scientists can make models that have predictions about a multi-verse or what is beyond spacetime or the universe, we may begin to get more answers. Until then asserting it must be created by a being is a God in the Gap theory.
Actually I'm more interested in the fundamental laws of physics so I am familiar with the structure of a computer at a basic level.
I would love to know where the laws came from. There are currently models where most of the fundamental forces unify at very high temperatures. So it's possible there is just one unified force. As we learn more about this and what could be beyond out universe many answers may be coming. In the meantime taking anthropormorphic concepts about creators from Bronze age myths isn't likely going to be related to what's actually real.
You are comparing God to a computer. Except a computer is real and there are many easy ways to learn about it's workings. Then learn about the construction of the materials it uses and then the atomic structure of the materials.
There is no God to study. Imaginary concepts are great. Still not real.
I am interested in what is true. Ideas that deal with afterlife and magic friends who answer prayers is not related to truth in any demonstrable way.
You are right to be somehow confused. I wasn't clear enough.
I see Jesus and my Father in Heaven as one. Even in the material world, a client sees two real partners while they are heading their company as one side not two; as if they were just One Person anytime he contacts their company.
On the other hand, Jesus deliberately was very clear in His first advice (though known as a command on the English Gospel). It is about Loving God only, not to worship God (the Heavenly entity headed by my Father in Heaven and Jesus, unified since before Creation by the Heavenly Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit). Even on earth, a loving father doesn't ask his beloved son to praise and obey him but wishes that his son can trust him fully (this is how I love my God). If someone understands that Jesus message is also about worshiping and not just about true love (trusting God fully), he finds hard understanding most of the crucial natural truths, revealed by Jesus.
Please note, I am not replying to convince you, or anyone else, about a certain image of God. I just try my best to be clearer since you asked.
I am afraid, it is one's problem if searching the maker of the complex (though very well defined) system of his living body is like searching a myth, and searching how the natural laws started is not like looking for a fairy tale.
I can assure you, since now, that one cannot get any real answers about the Will behind his existence, if he cannot perceive it within himself. Even a real scientist depends on himself first to get, for sure, any new answer (discovery). Such a scientist is known as inventor.
You are right fully in this. If one expects that his Maker should be like one of the various images of God that are offered on the world's table, he is simply searching the myth which suits best his priorities in life.
I guess you liked telling me: "You are comparing God to a company which makes computers".
Yes, computers and robots are real but they are supposed to play certain roles only for which they are built and programmed. They are not supposed to waste their times searching their makers.
I am afraid that this also applies on humans. If a human feels fine by just following his natural instincts (instructions embedded in his living flesh) to play, while alive, certain roles in the material world, he is also not supposed to waste his time searching the Will behind his existence in any way, including from within himself.
Thank you, you gave me here an example of a myth that describes the Creator.
joelr
Well-Known Member
I didn't say the study of a biological system or a study of the natural laws looks like a myth or fairy tale. You put those words in my mouth.
I said if you need a being to be responsible for them that sounds like a myth.
The natural world is excellent and completely adept at producing all kinds of amazing things, particles, forces, and they all work together to produce an atomic level, molecular and macroscopic world. All the way up to super-superclusters of galaxies.
Nature does this just fine. No need or evidence for a creator.
The natural laws seem to have arisen from a single unified law. Beyond that we do not know. But one day we might have progressed in science and will be able to answer many deeper questions.
Except many many scientists do not feel any "will" behind their existence. Many people do and that same feeling tells them the maker is Allah. Or that it's Jehova and the J. Witnesses are the only group doing the actual will of the creator.
Or it's Brahman acting through Krishna. Since so many people use there feeling to demonstrate their version of the maker is the correct and only one we see these feelings can and do lead people into complete fiction.
You have an idea in your mind and are finding a way to "feel" it's the actual truth. Sorry, sounds like made-up myth.
Evidence also demonstrates these feelings can be delusional.
New answers don't mean anything. Next they must be tested and repeated by other scientists to see if the answer has any connection to reality.
Other scientists must be able to perform the answers. Then the answers must make predictions or they must have a way to be tested. "Feelings" don't get a pass. Until you can use those feelings to make new and accurate predictions about reality that can be tested and compared with other feelings and we can determine what if any can be demonstrated to be real then they are of no use and there is no reason to take them as truth.
Right but I'm saying that even the idea of a maker seems to be part of these myths with no other connection to reality.
You are implying several things which you have given no evidence for, a will behind existence and instincts that go beyond physical, a non-physical realm in general. No evidence at all. You have a concept which sounds like it's from religious thinking about God and a will.
Yet most religious people have put forth the idea of feelings that go beyond the physical as well as some sort of sense of a God's feelings, wishes or "will".
Yet they all stand in opposition to each other with thousands of different ideas and commands and motives from many different Gods. Your idea about sensing a "will" from a creator is no different than a prophet claiming God told them who is the correct God and what it wants.
I don't see evidence that Mohammud spoke with the angel Gabrielle or Joe Smith spoke with Moroni and I see no evidence you are in tune with any will of a creator.
There is no doubt that people can convince themselves that these things are true.
There are many myths to describe creators. What would show there are more than myths is evidence.
I didn't get an answer regarding if one dies without "love on their heart"? Is there an afterlife in your model and is there a different afterlife for those who die without love?
What is the afterlife of a robot (when it is made out of service for good)?
In one way or another, sooner or later, it will end up returning back to its raw state, the state before its creation.
Logically, this also applies to those who are created to be human robots. A human robot looks as a selfish human (stimulated by the natural pleasant sensations pre-programmed in his living cells) to play his various important roles in life for which he is created/made. His guidance is his personal natural instincts.
You see! There is no reason to be worried about one's afterlife
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actsfourthirty
Member
actsfourthirty
Member
Jn 14:6
Is it the Earthly Baptism as of John The Baptist or the Spiritual Baptism by living the unconditional love towards all others as revealed clearly by Jesus?
The Earthly one (not necessarily called Christian) is now just a ticket to join a certain well-defined formal group.
The Spiritual one is strictly personal and cannot be lived truly if someone cannot be real free and independent (otherwise, he would be seen as betraying his group anytime he doesn't resist evil threatening it).
Who has ears will hear.