What was the Death of Jesus about?

Brian2 · May 11, 2021

F1fan said:
How were they perfect if they were capable of sinning?

Don't you find it odd that if a God really wanted to create perfect beings that it would create them capable of being obedient to the rules? God didn't do that. God created them easily tempted, and sent the tempting intermediary in the form of Satan. So Adam and Eve were set up by God to fail, and sin. So did God change its mind later and have regret, so sent Jesus?

Obviously Adam and Eve were not perfect because they did sin. They were human and were subject to temptation however and could have said no. They were going along fine till Satan came on the scene to do His deceiving and trickery. God did not send Satan to do what he did or God would not have condemned Satan for doing it.
There was no regret as God knew what would happen even before He made humans.
God could have made us more robot like I guess, but we would not have been human then.

MatthewA · May 11, 2021

WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

To pay for the sins ( 1 timothy 2:1-6) of mankind world by fulfilling the (Matthew 5:17-20)Old Testament Law and Prophecy. So that now (in todays world) anyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ can become a child of God (John 1:12). Through the Lord Jesus Christ any person who is a believer today can have an open and free relationship with God.

If they so desire to because of what Jesus Christ had did by (Luke 23:34) dying on the cross (John 14:6 Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and life - no one gets to God except through Him)(Romans 5:1-5 Justified by Faith/Rejoice in tribulations pressing on ward for hope).

Jesus Christ also died on the cross to set us free from religious bondage, and from the bondage of sin (Romans 6:15-19 - Set Free From Sin) (Romans 6:1-10 ~ Continue to sin?/Walking in Newness of life/Old Man - New Man). Jesus Christ also died and was risen again by God (Romans 10:1-12 ~ believe in your heart) and destroy the works of the Devil/Satan (1 John 3:8) by the shining of light and overcoming of death/sin/satan (Revelation 20:7-10 - the defeat of Satan)/the grave (Colossians 3:1-4 (Raised to new life) Romans 6:1-5 - (Baptism in Christ Jesus ` Death) /she'ol/hell/World (John 16:33 ~ Jesus Christ has conquered the world).

WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve?

God through Christ accomplished reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Corinthians 5:10-19) because of the Lord Jesus Christ choice to die for the entire world (John 3:16 - God so loved mankind), in which Jesus Christ could have told his Father no ~ I am not going to die for these people.

Jesus Christ overcame, death, sin, Satan, the grave, she'ol/hell.

Born again believers are introduced to spiritual wisdom from God (Ephesians 1:17) ~ and the spiritual wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 2:6-16) according to the bible is far beyond that of the world and its wisdom. That wisdom is found in Christ Jesus. 1 Corinthians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 2:16

So that now (in todays world) anyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ can become a child of God (John 1:12). Through the Lord Jesus Christ any person who is a believer today can have an open and free relationship with God. (Philippians 1:9 praying + growing in knowledge- spirit)(Colossians 1:9 praying + growing knowledge - spirit)(1 Peter 5:7 God cares for you)

Believers receive the holy spirit: Holy Spirit is Teacher? Bible Thoughts/Debate? : That helps them, and produces fruits of love: (Galatians 5:22-25) (Galatians 5:1-20 - Flesh (Sin) vs Spirit) (Hebrews 11:6 - Faith pleases God) (Romans 5:1-5 Justified by faith ~ Made right with God - have peace with God) (Romans 12:1-5 - Renewed in mind/Faith). Resurrection from the dead (John 11:25-26)

That is all that is made know to me, but would suggest taking a gander at the bible in what it has to say about these things and not believe me, cause it is possible for me to be wrong, and am sometimes wrong.

Rival · May 11, 2021

I don't think it was necessary for Jesus to die.

I don't think it achieved anything.

Brian2 · May 11, 2021

blü 2 said:
Where does the Tanakh say that? For example, the Garden story in Genesis never mentions sin, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer &c (regardless of what Paul says); and as Ezekiel 18 makes clear throughout, but not least in Ezekiel 18:20, no one is born a sinner, since sin is not heritable:

20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The judgement of God is on the individual and what he/she does and we don't get condemned for our parents' sins. We do however inherit their nature and whether through nature or nurture or both we all end up sinning. The perfection comes later after the resurrection when we are able to control our sinful nature fully.

blü 2 said:
I know that's the usual explanation, but it's not a useful explanation because it doesn't say WHY a death was required. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but God sacrificing [his] son to [him]self sounds ... what, both barbaric and pointless? Wholly beside the point for an omnipotent being?
It's true that there are ambiguities in the Tanakh about whether death is the end, or whether a later resurrection will occur (and in 1 Samuel 28:8 the lady calls up what appears to the ghost of Samuel).

Jesus said that God is God of the living, not the dead and so when God said He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that meant that there would be a resurrection,,,,,,,,,,,,even if it might not be seen that way by those who read it, such as the Sadducees. There are certainly definite pointers to a resurrection in the Tanakh however.
The result of sin is death, and the shedding of blood in death is needed for the forgiveness of sins. This satisfies justice, and is seen in the Mosaic Law even though the death of animals was not enough to give us complete forgiveness and eternal life. The death of a sinner could not do it either because that person would be dying for his own sins. The death of a sinless person was needed. That can be seen in the sacrifices having to be whole and unblemished in the law.
The way to go was plain to God before humans were created and it was acceptable to the Son also who. The Son was the only one who was certain not to sin as a human because He is exactly like His Father.

blü 2 said:
Are you saying that all the Jewish people who had died with Yahweh as their God were disadvantaged by that fact, were treated differently post-mortally to the Christian followers of the same God?

The righteous Jewish people also will live by faith and did so in their lives. They will be saved by their faith which is shown by their obedience to the Law. They have no disadvantage.

blü 2 said:
There are a number of later instances where God communicates directly with humans: [his] command to Abraham regarding Isaac (Genesis 22:1+), [his] command to Moses to beard Pharaoh (Exodus 8:1); the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1+); [his] coming upon Jephthah when the agreement was made, victory in return for human sacrifice (Judges 11:29-31), [his] conversations with David (eg 2 Samuel 21:1+) and so on. So God indeed had [his] representatives, but as reported, [he] was also personally available.

There are many prophets and people whom God chose and used and communicated directly with but they were also under the same law and had the High Priest as intermediary.
Jephthah was chosen by God and did not need to make any silly promises about sacrificing anyone. That may have helped shore up his confidence but was not needed.

blü 2 said:
Further than that, there is no precedent in the Tanakh for the idea that the only way to God is through an intermediary ie Jesus. (It appears to be a late borrowing from Gnostic teachings, reflected in particular in Paul and by the author of John.)

The Jews had the High Priests who alone could go into the Holiest place in the Temple, God's presence.
They alone could offer the blood of the sacrifices to assure the forgiveness of sins for the people.

blü 2 · May 11, 2021

Brian2 said:
More of a mission to be obedient to His Father and knowing that would lead to death and not avoiding it.

But that's the issue ─ the mission was to die. And in a grossly unpleasant manner.

What made that necessary? What could only be achieved by a hideous death when you're an omnipotent and benevolent God? Or are you still a violent and bloodthirsty Bronze Age savage?

Brian2 said:
A snap of the fingers could have given forgiveness to everyone even those who did not want it and who were not repentant. Same problem would remain however.

What same problem would remain? Those who didn't want it wouldn't have to take it. And of course even to this day, there are those who still have never heard of it, never had a chance to take it. What's just about that?

Brian2 said:
God could have snapped the fingers and changed humans so that they did not sin but God wants people who choose not to sin and are not forced. We would not be human if that happened.

If we're human, then under this logic it's because God made us as we are, warts and all. If we offend our maker, it seems ridiculous for the maker to blame the creation, doesn't it? How can an omnipotent being say anything is someone else's fault?

Brian2 said:
The Jews had the High Priest as intermediary and could not go confidently to God without the sacrifices that assured their forgiveness under the law.

Then why wasn't Jesus' message just that ─ Hey people, God will hear your prayers if you offer them in good faith, whether or not you've brought a sacrifice, whether or not you've paid your tithes.

Brian2 said:
God's Son is just like His Father and wants the same things. He was willing to do the deed because He loves His Father and loves us. Jesus prayed that if it was possible, take it away from me (in Gethsemane) If it was possible then it would have been taken away but it seems it was not possible.

But before we go to the question of why it couldn't be abandoned, we have the prior question, Why was it ever necessary in the first place? As I keep saying, we're talking about an omnipotent being here ─ is [he] truly benevolent or is [he] a bloodthirsty creep?

Brian2 said:
God's intention was for humans to live forever, thus the tree of life.

Nowhere is it suggested in the Garden story that Adam and Eve were to be immortal. On the exact opposite, the ONLY reason God threw them out of the Garden was to stop them becoming immortal ─ and [he] says exactly and only that at Genesis 3:22-23.

Brian2 said:
God knew what they would do, sin, but God was not going to let that or Satan win.

In the Garden story, there is no identification of the snake with Satan. (And indeed, Satan in the early Tanakh is simply one of God's courtiers ─ see for example Job 1. Not till much later is he the bad guy.)
God's intention still remained and how to achieve it had already been worked out.

Brian2 said:
It would not be a new and better covenant then.

You're saying that God didn't get the Covenant right the first time and was trying to fix it by sacrificing [his] son to [him]self? With all due respect, that makes no sense at all.

Brian2 said:
The Jews were a bit of a disappointment but God had brought this people into being to be a witness to Him and what He was doing.

But of course Christianity was very largely a pagan success, and only in a tiny way a Jewish success. Jesus was never the savior of the Jews, never their liberator from Rome, never anointed by the Jewish priesthood (which is what 'messiah' means). Instead, Christianity has meant two thousand years of Christian antisemitism, starting with the author of John. How could Jewish people possibly have thought he spoke for their God?

stvdv · May 11, 2021

blü 2 said:
New What was the death of Jesus about?

Jesus, according to the gospels, sets out, not on a suicide mission (meaning a very dangerous mission), but on a mission to die, a seeking of death, a literal suicide.

IMO:

I think Jesus was clairvoyant and knew what was going to happen to Him. That's all. I don't read more into it (as in a mission to die)

blü 2 said:
I've never understood what's supposed to be going on. I'd be grateful for coherent answers to three

blü 2 said:
The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

Not necessary to die, He was just killed (body-wise) by people

blü 2 said:
The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve?

Nothing. You achieve 'stuff' before you die. How you live greatly impacts how you die. But death on itself does not achieve things

blü 2 said:
The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

Grateful for illumination.

God does not need an intermediary. People believe this maybe, but I don't believe this.

blü 2 · May 11, 2021

stvdv said:
IMO:

I think Jesus was clairvoyant and knew what was going to happen to Him. That's all. I don't read more into it (as in a mission to die)

Thanks for your reply.

If I'm clairvoyant and I know the plane is going to crash, I (a) alert the airline and (b) get another plane, don't I?

Instead the whole point of the mission was Jesus' death. The cross is his emblem. The story is always about his suffering.

And no one can tell me why it was necessary, given an omnipotent God.

The best I can make of it is that God is not benevolent; that part of [his] billing is at best a typo.

stvdv said:
Not necessary to die, He was just killed (body-wise) by people

No, as I said in the OP, he made it plain at the start that it would have only one ending, and that the ending would be the point.

stvdv said:
Nothing. You achieve 'stuff' before you die. How you live greatly impacts how you die. But death on itself does not achieve things

That sounds right to me. It doesn't account for why he didn't leave Jerusalem while he still could, though; that only fits with wanting to die.

stvdv said:
God does not need an intermediary. People believe this maybe, but I don't believe this.

That makes sense!

Hermit Philosopher · May 11, 2021

Dear blü 2

These questions are very good and important ones, I feel. Thank you for putting them together!

blü 2 said:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die? What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

God’s sacrifice of Its Son, does not occur at Christ’s death, but by his actual birth and living. For no part of Christ’s life is ever about Christ himself; it is all about and for Man.

Though Christianity tells Man not to use each other as means, Christ is precisely God’s means to affect Man - he is the effect of the “snap” of God’s omnipotent fingers, if you will.

All interaction between Jesus and Man must be understood in light of this, so that one sees that what occurs between them does not happen to Christ; it happens to (and for) Man.

Christ does not die; Man kills him, for example.

blü 2 said:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?

Though it is not correct to claim that no one prior to Jesus’ life and death tried to live Christ-like, it is not entirely false to say that the ideal of trying to do so, widely spread amongst many afterwards.

There is also a mystical take on this, but as it puts certain Christian views into question, I do not feel comfortable elaborating on that here.

blü 2 said:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

To me, this question does relate to that mystical take I mentioned on your second question, actually. I’m just not sure how to word this here...

Some say that God experiences Its’ manifestation through Man.

I don’t feel I can word this differently at the moment. Sorry.

Humbly
Hermit

MatthewA · May 11, 2021

You know it is not just the death of Jesus Christ that is amazing.

Yet the confirmation of His disciples after the resurrection of Christ then going onward to preach the truth of good news Gospel of Christ went and were martyred for it.

Very interesting, my post here is number 22; My best option is to give what is known from the bible that talks about the topic, of What was the death of Jesus Christ about. Because how else will you know the truth about what the death of Christ Jesus would be about if you do not go to the source and see what the source has to say about the death of Christ Jesus.

Thank you all and take care.

~ (My post may be wrong and sometimes I do say things that are wrong ~ My apologizes about being wrong and you take care.

)

PureX · May 11, 2021

We (humanity) killed the messenger because we didn't like the message. This was not necessary. We could have simply listened. But the message did not die. It is still with us, and is still challenging us.

Colt · May 11, 2021

blü 2 said:
What was the death of Jesus about?

Jesus, according to the gospels, sets out, not on a suicide mission (meaning a very dangerous mission), but on a mission to die, a seeking of death, a literal suicide.

In Mark he puts it on the table right near the start:

Mark 2:20 The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.

and at the end he doesn’t take the midnight special camel train out of Jerusalem to points east, but deliberately avoids every chance to escape:

Mark 14:33 And he took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled. 34 And he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch." 35 And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 And he said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt."

Matthew 26:18 He said, "Go into the city to a certain one, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at your house with my disciples.'"

Matthew 26:29 “I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Matthew 26:38 Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Luke 22:22 For the Son of man goes as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

Luke 22:42 "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."

The tone in John is different, but the determination to die is still foremost:

John 17:4 I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do; 5 and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 17:13 But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

I've never understood what's supposed to be going on. I'd be grateful for coherent answers to three

The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?

The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

Grateful for illumination.

It wasn't necessary that the incarnate Son be rejected and killed. Considering that his Gospel was rejected (and hence the Father also) and the unbelieving Jews sought to kill him, the decision was made to "turn the other cheek" for other, greater purposes.

The Jesus movement went West which was found to be more receptive.

* The incarnate Son sought to live the full life of one of his own created beings. Death is ordinarily a part of Life for us all.

* The cross proved his divine identity and life after death for the faithful.

The Father and Son used the evil of rejection for the good of salvation; the cross attracts many to the religion to hear about his life.

PruePhillip · May 11, 2021

blü 2 said:
What was the death of Jesus about?

Grateful for illumination.

Isaiah and Daniel (Babylonian times) both speak of the coming Messiah as one who would
die for His people. He would be the lamb slain in Exodus, his shed blood covering the people
from the angel of death - that is, the world and the devil.
I too struggle with the same questions. I see it this way - in that He gave His life for His people
we understand the seriousness of the mission God gives us. In that the Messiah gave His life,
we need to give ours. Those that went out into Christ's ministry also "took up their cross" and
"died daily" in no longer having even a home of their own, but to face a dangerous world and
preach the Gospel.
In other words, it's the symbol.

firedragon · May 11, 2021

Bree said:
What a great post and great questions.

Q1. It was necessary for Jesus to die because according to Gods justice, the penalty of every sinner is death. Sadly, we are all 'born' sinners. We didnt have a choice not to be a sinner because we were born from Adam, a man who chose sin over obedience. Romans5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin,+ and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned
The scriptures also tell us that when we die, our sins are forgiven. Romans 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin But who wants to die? Will you happily to say to God, Please let me die so my sins can be forgiven? No. None of us want to do that.
So Jesus did it for us!
He willingingly died in our place so that our sins could be forgiven without the need for our own personal death.

Q2. What did Jesus actually achieve?
The prospects of everlasting life for each one of us. God will forgive our sins without first calling for the death penalty. So his death has achieved a great justice for all mankind whether they realise it or not. It means you can now go to God and 'ask' for forgiveness and God will give you forgiveness. What this means in reality is that God will not demand the death penalty from you. Your life prospects have changed and you can have a personal meaningful relationship with your creator and by means of that relationship you can live forever.

Q3.
God has always used intermediaries. The only time no intermediary was necessary was when Adam and Eve lived as perfect humans in the Garden of Eden before they sinned. God walked with Adam in the garden as the scriptures tell us at Gen 3:8 Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden. 9 And Jehovah God kept calling to the man and saying to him: “Where are you?” After that time, God has removed himself from sinful mankind and only spoke by means of his angles or human spokespersons such as the prophets, moses and Jesus Christ. The Garden of Eden was a true temple of God where God himself was ruler and mankind could commune with him freely.

Q1. But the Bible says that who repents will not die. That conflicts with your statement "penalty of sin is death".
Q2. Yet the question was "why couldn't God do it himself because he is powerful enough". Thus, are you contending that God is powerless to do it?
Q3. No. God in the Tanakh never had intermediaries as in a person like Jesus. He had those who carried his message up and down.

blü 2 · May 11, 2021

Hermit Philosopher said:
God’s sacrifice of Its Son, does not occur at Christ’s death, but by his actual birth and living. For no part of Christ’s life is ever about Christ himself; it is all about and for Man.

Thanks for your reply.

But with an omnipotent and benevolent being at the helm, why was any sacrifice necessary?

Hermit Philosopher said:
Though Christianity tells Man not to use each other as means, Christ is precisely God’s means to affect Man - he is the effect of the “snap” of God’s omnipotent fingers, if you will.

Since that doesn't fit the gospels' take on the matter, may I enquire as to the source of your views?

Hermit Philosopher said:
All interaction between Jesus and Man must be understood in light of this, so that one sees that what occurs between them does not happen to Christ; it happens to (and for) Man.

So what was the point of the bloodshed, the torment? Why couldn't that be omitted and the end achieved directly?

Hermit Philosopher said:
Christ does not die; Man kills him, for example.

But as I point out in the OP, the only reason "Man kills him" is because of Jesus' own purposeful maneuverings and manipulations to that end. Why did he not instead just do what was needed (whatever that was) and get the heck out of there?

blü 2 · May 11, 2021

MatthewA said:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?
To pay for the sins ( 1 timothy 2:1-6) of mankind world by fulfilling the Old Testament Law and Prophecy.

What sins? As I've mentioned in previous posts here, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good or evil, therefore were incapable of forming an intent to do wrong, therefore were incapable of sin, until after they'd eaten the fruit. And the Garden story never mentions sin, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer, none of the above. The only reason God kicked them out is set out clearly in Genesis 3:22-23.

And if we overlook that and stipulate sins, and a requirement of forgiveness, why would anyone have to die to accomplish that?

MatthewA said:
So that now (in todays world) anyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ can become a child of God (John 1:12). Through the Lord Jesus Christ any person who is a believer today can have an open and free relationship with God.

That would only matter if this was not available to God's chosen people, the Jews, no? And they were able to pray to God and be heard by God at will, no? I'm not aware of any part of the Tanakh that says otherwise.

MatthewA said:
(John 14:6 Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and life - no one gets to God except through Him)

But the Jews had free access to their God without an intermediary, so why suddenly require one something more than a thousand years down the track?

MatthewA said:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve?

God through Christ accomplished reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Corinthians 5:10-19) because of the Lord Jesus Christ choice to die for the entire world

Why couldn't God accomplish reconciling the world unto [Him]self without bloodshed? Were I omnipotent I dare say I could do that four or five times before breakfast.

MatthewA said:
Jesus Christ overcame, death, sin, Satan, the grave, she'ol/hell.

I don't see that. Where I live, people still die, Satan appears to be away talking with our elected representatives, and things are pretty normal.

MatthewA said:
but would suggest taking a gander at the bible in what it has to say about these things and not believe me, cause it is possible for me to be wrong, and am sometimes wrong.

A kind suggestion, but I didn't start this thread without looking at the bible first ─ its silence on the matters in the OP is why we're here.

blü 2 · May 11, 2021

cOLTER said:
It wasn't necessary that the incarnate Son be rejected and killed.

As I set out in the OP, it apparently was essential that he be killed, since to be killed was his declared mission. Why that should be so is my question.

cOLTER said:
Considering that his Gospel was rejected (and hence the Father also) and the unbelieving Jews sought to kill him

You're a first century Jew in the holylands. There's one more player in the religion industry who is not a civil or military or religious leader of the Jews, and has never been anointed by the Jewish priesthood ─ in other words had none of the qualifications of a messiah. Why on earth would you notice him, think he was different from or better than the other players?

cOLTER said:
, the decision was made to "turn the other cheek" for other, greater purposes.

What greater purposes, exactly, and WHY did they require bloodshed when God is omnipotent and benevolent?

blü 2 · May 11, 2021

PruePhillip said:
Isaiah and Daniel (Babylonian times) both speak of the coming Messiah as one who would die for His people.

"Messiah" means "anointed" (as does its translation into Greek, "khristos", Christ. To be a messiah you were to be a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews and anointed by the Jewish priesthood. (There are also examples of the title being conferred as an honorific for very distinguished foreigners.) Jesus was none of these things ─ so why would anyone think he was a messiah?

PruePhillip said:
He would be the lamb slain in Exodus, his shed blood covering the people
from the angel of death - that is, the world and the devil.

But that doesn't answer my question, why was bloodshed required when an omnipotent benevolent God is involved?

PruePhillip said:
In other words, it's the symbol.

Mebbe ─ anyway, that's the most promising suggestion so far.

Hermit Philosopher · May 11, 2021

blü 2 said:
Why did he not instead just do what was needed (whatever that was) and get the heck out of there?

Because, my friend, it is not God and/or Christ that must “do”; it is Man.

That question to me suggests that, if you did read my input, you may not have reflected upon it. That is of course not at all a problem, but what I write will not make sense to you unless you want to understand what I’m trying to point at.

The experience of worldliness is for Man.
And embodied, Man cannot act outside of it. Therefore, all that God wants of Man, Man must learn/do/experience here - not in spirit, but through worldliness.
Christ came into worldliness, not to “do”, but for Man to encounter and experience Christ’s selflessness.

Humbly
Hermit

rational experiences · May 11, 2021

Humans prove by human awareness science.

Humans aware knew we owned death in our human future. Natural.

Heavens gases and water remain constant don't have a future. they are meant to continue the same.

This type of conscious self status future destruction is involved in misconceived human ideals. Death.

To discuss natural death is not real. As we already own death.

To discuss unnatural death sacrificed life a Jesus commentary compared to Moses.

The only state to compare is science.

Proven by men claiming use of statements compared female human body. Space as a womb.

Female humans or female animals have wombs.

You look back biological lesser bodies.....apes females had wombs.

Looking back aware begins in biology in science until the thinker says earth body reactions then past again to space reactions.

Those thoughts own no life perspective at all.

To correctly assess lying theists. Humans.

Life sacrificed the topic.

Life has been sacrificed before in olden days.

What was compared.

KerimF · May 11, 2021

blü 2 said:
The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

Being an independent student of Jesus, my answer is that Jesus had to die because he was simply incarnated in a mortal flesh as mine. Isn't it obvious?!

blü 2 said:
The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?

Again, being an independent student of Jesus, the way by which Jesus was captured, judged and died on the cross has achieved many crucial goals (but none of them is about the magical 'Salvation by Faith' preached by formal Christian Churches and Denominations):

[1] It was crucial mainly for his Apostles and first Disciples who used being Jews. They needed to witness for sure that Jesus death does coincide with the Jewish prophecies they used hearing of.

[2] Without this clear death, on the cross and in front of all Jewish and Roman people in Jerusalem, his Apostles and first Disciples wouldn't be real impressed by seeing his living flesh again after it. Their main mission was to preach Jesus message that focuses on God's Unconditional Love. This message is clearly opposing the natural human instincts of survival in all times. But, despite their mission was impossible, Jesus miracle of reappearing to them again as a normal man after his sure death gave them all the necessary strength to achieve this impossible mission (thanks to them, I have on my hands Jesus teachings now) while facing very hard painful situations till their last breath.

[3] Jesus let the scenario of his death show the world very clearly that not only his flesh is dead on the cross but also his message as well. On that day, there was not even one person who dared saying "I believe what this man on the cross said". Jesus let even his Peter (his Rock) denied him clearly on that day; not once, not twice but 3 times (the golden number of confirming something with no doubt).

[4] It wasn't enough that people witnessed his death on the cross. He also let his Apostles and first Disciples hide themselves for 40 days; the universally known period in which a widow of an important dead husband is isolated to prove she has no life in her from him. Then, after this period of total silence (in which there was no sign at all that Jesus message could be alive), the Resurrection of Jesus Message happened (via the sacrifices of his Apostles and first Disciples) and it stayed alive till our days.

In other words, if Jesus died normally, none of above could happen.

blü 2 said:
The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

Judaism was just a set of rules to help some chosen ancient human generations (Jews) be gathered in a well-organized and protected group (or nation, if you like). The main purpose of God's teachings addressed to these ancient Jews were simply to prepare them for the arrival of Jesus among them. Therefore, at the arrival of Jesus, the mission of Judaism was fulfilled.
By the way, Jesus presented John The Baptist as being the greatest Jewish prophets. And, as it is well known, the main mission of John The Baptist was preparing many Jews in this time for the recent arrival of Jesus among them. Jesus said:

{Matthew 11:11} Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

There is no statement clearer than this saying to remind me that Jesus teachings that are addressing those who are spiritual (having also a living soul, besides their living mortal flesh) are the final and complete version of God's Word. But God (as revealed by Jesus, hence based solely on the Spirit of Love, not on any Law) has no reason to prevent his free humans to still be gathered in Jewish groups or in any other formal ones (religious and/or political) to the end of time.

Student of Jesus
Kerim

What was the Death of Jesus about?

Veteran Member

Active Member

se Dex me saut.

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV

Veteran Member

Selflessly here for you

Active Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Selflessly here for you

Veteran Member

Active Member