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YHWH: Worship ONE GOD, not MANY GODS. Worship Me, alone!

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The sentence "God is in Christ" should not be taken literally or as a scriptural doctrine. In the same manner no one would take the sentence" Marriage mates are one flesh" literally. These sentence are poetic or analogies meant to convey certain features or meanings, anything else would be metaphysics.

The Hebrew words conveying the idea of worship ('a-vaeh') basically means "serve". There is no contradiction in giving Jesus that type of worship, since he is in full harmony with his father Jehovah and is appointed by him as king over his earthly subjects.

2 Corinthians 5:19. 'To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.'

True, it IS service that a Christian offers to Jesus Christ, because a true believer is born again of his Spirit and walks by his Spirit. It is, therefore, perfectly accurate to say that 'God is in Christ'. But it is wrong to think that Jesus Christ is only given authority over his earthly subjects. Jesus Christ is king over ALL in heaven, in earth, and under the earth [Philippians 2:10]
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
2 Corinthians 5:19. 'To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.'

True, it IS service that a Christian offers to Jesus Christ, because a true believer is born again of his Spirit and walks by his Spirit. It is, therefore, perfectly accurate to say that 'God is in Christ'. But it is wrong to think that Jesus Christ is only given authority over his earthly subjects. Jesus Christ is king over ALL in heaven, in earth, and under the earth [Philippians 2:10]
Christ Jesus is given ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER to rule over both Heaven and Creation UNTIL ALL THINGS have been reconciled unto him.

AFTER this is achieved, Christ HANDS BACK THE POWER AND AUTHORITY to GOD; YAHWEH; THE FATHER, who was the one who gave him all things.

Do you understand the prophecy underlying the story of Joseph in Egypt?

Pharoah put ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY in the hands of Joseph TO RULE UNTIL the famine was over.... whence Joseph HANDS BACK the power and authority TO PHAROAH who gave it to him.

How do you read the role of Mordeciah in the Book of Esther... is it not the same: Mordeciah is given all power and authority to rule by king Xerxes UNTIL the day of Purim is over!

Neither Joseph nor Mordeciah were EQUAL TO nor ABOVE the RULER who gave them power and authority because neither Hoseph nor Mordeciah OWNED the throne of rulership: “Except for my throne, you are to be [AS] Pharoah’ (paraphrased and good enough). Both did not OWN the power and authority which is clear from the fact that they HANDED IT BACK when the task was over. The Lord God, the king (Xerxes), the Pharoah, was ALWAYS the ultimate ruler.

Imagine you lend your car to your son. He encounters a police officer who asks him, ‘who is in charge of this car?’. He says, ‘I am’. The officer then asks, ‘Are you the owner of the car?’. Your son correctly says, ‘No. my dad is! ... but he GAVE ME THE KEYS (power snd authority) TO USE for the purpose, I will HAND THEM BACK TO HIM.’
You see, although your is holding the keys to the car, In Charge, he still is not the ultimate OWNER.

Now, when that is shown to a trinitarian (I’m not calling you one such, just saying a truth for the sake of it) they never react because they know that these are prophesies pertaining to Jesus. But since the prophesies proves their ideology is wrong, they ignore it.... ignore the truth for the sake of retaining their false ideology....
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
Fact is, Jesus is NOT God by his own words, so, how can Jesus be God by the words of others ??? Sounds like you believe in the words of others more than you believe in the words of God or His prophet, Jesus.


Firstly, the passage you quoted DID NOT mention anything about a resurrected Jesus or any wounds/nail marks. In context, the other disciples told Thomas they have seen Jesus alive (John 20:25), not dead as many have believed. Thomas, still thinking Jesus was crucified would obviously think Jesus somehow must have survived the crucifixion, and that’s why Thomas said he would only believe the man is Jesus only if he can see the wound/nail marks on Jesus’ hands (John 20:25). When Thomas came face-to-face with Jesus, Jesus showed his hands and side to Thomas and asked him to put his finger at where the wound/nail marks were supposed to be if he was crucified.

Now, let’s pause here and think with logic and rationale – why would Jesus have to ask Thomas to put his finger into the wounds ?? If Jesus was really crucified, wouldn’t Thomas see the wound and nail marks with his own naked eyes ?? We are not talking about someone being crucified with tiny pins here, we are talking about someone being crucified with huge nails hammered into his hands and his side speared !! Moreover, it would be crazy for anyone whose hands had just been hammered by nails to ask anyone to put his finger into the gaping wounds !! The obvious reason why Jesus asked Thomas to put his finger into the place where the wound/nail marks would have been if he was crucified, is because he wanted Thomas to see and feel that THERE ARE NO WOUND/NAIL MARKS ON HIS BODY, PROVING HE WAS NOT CRUCIFIED, LET ALONE, KILLED.

Christians only assume (and boy, did they assume a lot!) that Jesus was showing wound marks to prove he was crucified and had come back from the dead when the reason Jesus showed his hands and feet was to prove HE WAS ALIVE, not killed and in realizing this, his disciples were filled with joy and amazement – ‘They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have. When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?”’ – Luke 24:37-41. Your own scripture clearly told you why Jesus showed his hands and feet to his disciples !!

Secondly, Jesus himself NEVER said anything about resurrection nor any wound/nail marks. Thomas, who was expecting to see wound/nail marks on Jesus as he thought Jesus was crucified but somehow survived, would understandably, be in a state of shock and disbelief when he realized Jesus was NOT even crucified nor killed as Jesus had just shown him his uninjured hands and feet, and Thomas reacted with an exclamation of “My Lord and my God!”.

‘My Lord’ because Jesus is a respected Rabbi and Jews called their rabbis ‘lords’ and ‘my God!’ is an exclamation of shock and disbelief when one sees something unbelievable and in this case, Thomas came to the realization of the shocking truth that the man he thought was crucified and killed was now standing in front of him is very much alive.


As expected, more assumptions as Jesus NEVER claimed/implied he’s God the Son nor is he equal to God….but, you can prove me wrong by quoting Jesus’ words claiming or even implying he’s God/equal to God.

As for the Jews, they were just finding reasons to get rid of Jesus and the only way they can get rid of Jesus permanently is to accused him of blasphemy (to which Jesus denied), which by the Law of the time, carries the death penalty by crucifixion. The fact that Jesus denied any blasphemy, means he’s denying he’s God or equal to God.


More conjectures obviously. Try to justify your claims of who Jesus is by quoting Jesus’ words or from God Almighty, NOT the words of other people as their words DO NOT make Jesus God.


Well, try to read Psalm 22 in its context and in its entirety and NOT just cherry pick a verse here and a verse there as preached by your preachers and scholars.

If you do read Psalm 22 in its entirety, you will note that Psalm 22:19 onwards is telling you that God will save Jesus from the crucifixion because God has listen to his cry for help. The word ‘BUT’ at the very beginning of Psalm 22:19, tells us the earlier verses (Psalm 22:1-18) are what people will perceive as to what happened but the reality (Psalm 22:19 onwards) is God will hear Jesus’ cry for help and will save him (Psalm 22:24). In a way, that also explain to why Jesus, when he reappeared to his disciples AFTER the supposed crucifixion and resurrection, NEVER spoke of any wound mark, not even his so-called resurrection.


Well, ignoring Jesus own words of who he is and heavily relying on the words of other people to claim Jesus is God is just another silly argument that Trinitarians use to support their man-made belief.

That was an answer I was not expecting, I did not realise that you do not believe the Bible and just want to attack what the Bible tells us.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Neither Joseph nor Mordeciah were EQUAL TO nor ABOVE the RULER who gave them power and authority because neither Hoseph nor Mordeciah OWNED the throne of rulership: “Except for my throne, you are to be [AS] Pharoah’ (paraphrased and good enough). Both did not OWN the power and authority which is clear from the fact that they HANDED IT BACK when the task was over. The Lord God, the king (Xerxes), the Pharoah, was ALWAYS the ultimate ruler.

Imagine you lend your car to your son. He encounters a police officer who asks him, ‘who is in charge of this car?’. He says, ‘I am’. The officer then asks, ‘Are you the owner of the car?’. Your son correctly says, ‘No. my dad is! ... but he GAVE ME THE KEYS (power snd authority) TO USE for the purpose, I will HAND THEM BACK TO HIM.’
You see, although your is holding the keys to the car, In Charge, he still is not the ultimate OWNER.

Now, when that is shown to a trinitarian (I’m not calling you one such, just saying a truth for the sake of it) they never react because they know that these are prophesies pertaining to Jesus. But since the prophesies proves their ideology is wrong, they ignore it.... ignore the truth for the sake of retaining their false ideology....

Jesus said: John 16:14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15 Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.

Do you think that is a true statement and that even when Jesus hands back the Kingdom, it still belongs to Jesus?
So why do you think Jesus hands back the Kingdom and become subject to He God and Father?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
proverbs 8
22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.
i'll let you do the math

Some trinitarians also say this is about Jesus and some do not. Those that do not say that see that this personification of Wisdom is a female who lives in a house with Prudence and so is just a personification of Wisdom and is not about Jesus.
Those who say it is Jesus realise that God was alone while making the heavens and the earth and so anyone who was there doing the creating was God.
Isa 44:24 “Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb: I am the Lord that maketh all things, that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by Myself;

And other passages say the same thing.
They also realise that the translation you have above is not the best and that the word translated "produced" is better translated "obtained" or "possessed" which is how the word is used in the other parts of Proverbs.
Another place where we see definitely when God became the God of Jesus is at Psalm 22:10.

Psalm 22:10From birth I was cast upon You; from my mother’s womb You have been my God.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
That was an answer I was not expecting, I did not realise that you do not believe the Bible and just want to attack what the Bible tells us.
Attacking the Bible ??! Really?? Come on, grow up Brian2 !

It’s NOT about whether one believes the Bible or not, it’s about what Jesus did say or did not say in the Bible. Take you for example, you believe in the Bible and yet, you STILL do not know what Jesus did say or did not say in your own Bible and that’s why instead of relying on the words of Jesus, you have to rely on the words of other people to support your ‘Jesus is God’ belief.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Attacking the Bible ??! Really?? Come on, grow up Brian2 !

It’s NOT about whether one believes the Bible or not, it’s about what Jesus did say or did not say in the Bible. Take you for example, you believe in the Bible and yet, you STILL do not know what Jesus did say or did not say in your own Bible and that’s why instead of relying on the words of Jesus, you have to rely on the words of other people to support your ‘Jesus is God’ belief.

I believe the Bible is God's Word to us and I showed you where Jesus agreed that He is Thomas's God.
You do not even believe that Jesus was crucified so you are denying that what the Bible tells us is true.
Whether Jesus said directly that He is God or not is not the point. Jesus said that He is the Son of God which gives Him the same nature as He Father and that is what the Trinity claims.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Jesus said: John 16:14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15 Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.
Well, let’s start with the last part first:
  • “HE (?) will glorify me by taking from what is mine...”
The ‘He’ is forced, designed to make IT seem like a person. All righteous eternity agrees that the Greek did not designate a gender explicitly here. The word, “ekeinos” is offered by STRONGS as:
  • “that one (or neut. that thing)” (1565)
Literally, therefore, ‘IT’.

But more importantly, how, if the Holy Spirit IS UNFETTERED ALMIGHTY GOD, (ha ha ha...EQUAL TO GOD!! - oh boy..., the mind boggles at the senseless logic!) that Jesus has, GIVEN TO HIM (Jesus... who himself, by trinity, is also UNFETTERED ALMIGHTY GOD!) all knowledge and power that the Father has?
Howbeit Trinitarians cannot agree with the scriptures they claim they gain their knowledge from, that the Father GRANTED Jesus TO HAVE these things. Being GRANTED means gifted something that one did not have previously - yet trinity claims Jesus had it all along...

We can see from this that there is a transition FROM the Father, to the Son, and onto the Holy Spirit. Yet trinity claims that the three are co-equal in almighty omniscience.

How does the Holy Spirit not have what the Father has...

How does the Holy Spirit not have what Jesus has - after Jesus is gifted it by the Father.

Is this another example of [a] God who veils his power? A new trinity teaching... my guess, yes! Since trinity modifies itself as each of its fallacies is uncovered.

And so the start... partly covered already:
  • “Everything that belongs to the Father is mine!”
Have I not gone over this already... it is true that trinity ideology tries the patience of the Saints. The frustration of constantly expressing the same truth to Trinitarians is designed to wear down the truth speaker! Fortunately, I love expressing the truth. Each rebuff strengthens my resolve in the belief that trinity is a fallacy ELSE the offender would have agreed rather than attempt yet another disingenuous response that another trinitarian will say, “Well, I don’t know who you’ve been talking to BUT I DON’T BELIEVE THAT!”... see, there it is... Trinity is as false as the three persons are one God that it falsely declares. Each trinitarian declares HIS OWN fallacy hence its hard to pin down any one of them... or they simply go underground away from the debate so as not to imbibe the truth only to resurface again elsewhere with their same false doctrine or a modified version..,YET we know that:
  • TRUTH CHANGETH NOT??
‘All power and authority has been granted to me, Jesus said. But nonetheless, ‘All’ does not include the SEAT OF POWER, the throne of God. And this is illustrated by the two themes I outlined: Joseph and Mordeciah. And... written in the scriptures:
  • “For he ‘has put everything under his feet.’ Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.” (1 Cor 15:27)
Need anymore be said?

Do you think that is a true statement and that even when Jesus hands back the Kingdom, it still belongs to Jesus?
I’m glad to see you asking these questions... No, it does not belong to Jesus. You cannot be GIVEN something for a period of time to perform a function, and then after performing the function, hand the thing BACK and yet STILL have it as YOURS. Nothing goes such. What happened with Jesus is that LATER, after the world and heaven is TESTED as to its conformity to the holy order OF GOD, Jesus SITS DOWN TO JUDGE the WORLD (not Heaven) and selects those whom pleases him to GRANT THEM ETERNAL LIFE IN HIS KINGDOM (the world - creation) that the Father then GRANTS TO HIM, thus fulfilling the prophesy of the Son REIGNING OVER CREATION. Nowhere does ANY SCRIPTURE claim that Jesus REIGNS over HEAVEN... THE Father REMAINS THE RULER.
Heaven is an endless spirit realm.
Creation is a ‘room’ in the MANSION of his Father. Scriptures tells us he went to PREPARE this room for his followers FROM within his Fathers mansion. Nowhere does it say that Jesus rules the mansion of heaven.
So why do you think Jesus hands back the Kingdom and become subject to He God and Father?
Why did Joseph hand back the rulership by the seal (equiv: Holy Spirit) of Egypt to Pharoah after Joseph fulfilled his mission to oversee the famine in Egypt?

Why did Mordeciah hand back the signet ring of king Xerxes (equiv: Holy Spirit) to king Xerxes after modecaih fulfilled the day of Purim?

The answers are the same because the prophesies are the same. If I give you my car for you to deliver a parcel... and when you deliver that parcel... you GIVE HAND IT BACK to Him who handed it to you in the first place....!! It is not Yours to retain. The giver then REWARDS you with a worthy gift for what could be termed a monumental task. Perhaps, I bug you your OWN smaller car as a reward now I see that you are dutiful, righteous, careful, did not claim my limousine was yours personally (gloat!!) but used it exactly as I instructed you... you brought it back in a better condition than when I handed it to you... therefore I grant you YOUR OWN CAR knowing you will use it as I guided you with my own car: Jesus will govern the created world just as his Father taught him and he demonstrated in bringing heaven and earth under his feet.

Note: Jesus rules on the throne of David. This is a spiritual position OVER CREATION... an earthly realm... and consequently Jesus’ rulership organisation will be of HUMAN GOVERNERS:
  • “The world (not Heaven) to come will by no means be ruled by angels” (Hebrew 2:5)
Since we know that currently holy angels are governers under YHWH over creation linking to the angels (now called ‘Fallen’ or Deminic) who ‘Left their station’ to follow the fallen Angel named as ‘[the] Satan’.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
I believe the Bible is God's Word to us….
Not really. The Bible has evolved over a long period of time and by today, the Bible is a mixture of truth and lies. For example, the baptismal formula ‘in the name of the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost’ in Matthew 28:19 was added to the original Matthew at a very late point in time AFTER the adoption of the trinity doctrine and many notable Christian sources agree. Just to name a few -
The Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly Catholic work, states:
It may be that this formula, (Triune Matthew 28:19) so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Man-made) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community. It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing “in the name of Jesus,”.

The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, page 275:
It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition, volume II, page 263:
The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.

So, really, how can you even hang on to the trinity doctrine and claim the Bible is the Words of God if the Trinitarian baptismal formula was ADDED to the original Matthew in your Bible ??

…..and I showed you where Jesus agreed that He is Thomas's God.
What you showed me is a clear conjecture because nowhere in that whole passage that tells us Jesus understood Thomas; “My Lord and my God!” as an acknowledgement that he is God.

“My Lord and my God!” is an exclamation of shock and disbelief, NOT an acknowledgment of Jesus’ divinity, as Trinitarians would love to believe. Moreover, it would be silly to use Thomas’ exclamation of shock and disbelief of seeing Jesus unharmed and very much alive as ‘evidence’ that Jesus is God when none of the other disciples took Jesus as God when he reappeared to them after the supposed ‘crucifixion and resurrection’.

You do not even believe that Jesus was crucified so you are denying that what the Bible tells us is true.
It’s NOT what I believe that should be telling you whether Jesus was crucified or NOT, it’s what your Scripture and Jesus did say or did not say that is telling you whether Jesus was crucified or NOT –

- Psalm 22 clearly said God will save Jesus (read Psalm 22 in its entirety especially from Psalm 22:19 onwards)

- Jesus himself NEVER mentioned anything about his wound or his resurrection when he reappeared to his disciples AFTER the supposed ‘crucifixion and resurrection’

- The Bible clearly tells us why Jesus showed his hands to his disciples and that is, to prove to them that he’s not a ghost – to be a ghost you must be dead first. In other words, in telling his disciples he’s NOT a ghost, Jesus was telling his disciples he was not killed.

So, here’s the question – if Jesus was showing his hands to show that he’s NOT a ghost, it means there are no wound/nail marks on his hands, if there are no wound marks, it means Jesus was not crucified, if he was not crucified, it means he was not killed and if he was not killed, how can he literally rise from the dead when he was not dead to begin with ???

Whether Jesus said directly that He is God or not is not the point. Jesus said that He is the Son of God which gives Him the same nature as He Father and that is what the Trinity claims
Well, what the trinity claim is FALSE

- FALSE because the triune baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 is a proven fabrication

- FALSE because Jesus himself NEVER preached the doctrine of the trinity in his entire life on earth

- FALSE because Jesus himself had denied he’s God/God the Son.

So, what is left of the Trinitarian claims are just conjectures and assumptions from other people.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
Some trinitarians also say this is about Jesus and some do not. Those that do not say that see that this personification of Wisdom is a female who lives in a house with Prudence and so is just a personification of Wisdom and is not about Jesus.
Those who say it is Jesus realise that God was alone while making the heavens and the earth and so anyone who was there doing the creating was God.
Isa 44:24 “Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb: I am the Lord that maketh all things, that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by Myself;

And other passages say the same thing.
They also realise that the translation you have above is not the best and that the word translated "produced" is better translated "obtained" or "possessed" which is how the word is used in the other parts of Proverbs.
Another place where we see definitely when God became the God of Jesus is at Psalm 22:10.

Psalm 22:10From birth I was cast upon You; from my mother’s womb You have been my God.
people do try to humanize God . there is something of a pattern, male & female. but thats not true of God .but to work with the pattern , Jesus does take on the the female type of role ,helper , supporter , partner working along side submissively to achieve a goal. i am not for a moment saying Jesus is female ,no not at all .(not that there is any thing wrong with being female) the position/office that Jesus fills is subordinate to God ,working for God ,even doing something that God cant do by him self. perhaps all that's a bit deep of a thought for some, c'est la vie.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Jesus is truly a servant of God, NOT God the Son.
and HE said of Himself.......BROTHER and fellow servant

if God is not His Father........

and having recited the Our Father.......no doubt you have
you have declared YOURSELF a son of God

heaven heard it
so too the devil
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Christ Jesus is given ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER to rule over both Heaven and Creation UNTIL ALL THINGS have been reconciled unto him.

AFTER this is achieved, Christ HANDS BACK THE POWER AND AUTHORITY to GOD; YAHWEH; THE FATHER, who was the one who gave him all things.

Do you understand the prophecy underlying the story of Joseph in Egypt?

Pharoah put ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY in the hands of Joseph TO RULE UNTIL the famine was over.... whence Joseph HANDS BACK the power and authority TO PHAROAH who gave it to him.

How do you read the role of Mordeciah in the Book of Esther... is it not the same: Mordeciah is given all power and authority to rule by king Xerxes UNTIL the day of Purim is over!

Neither Joseph nor Mordeciah were EQUAL TO nor ABOVE the RULER who gave them power and authority because neither Hoseph nor Mordeciah OWNED the throne of rulership: “Except for my throne, you are to be [AS] Pharoah’ (paraphrased and good enough). Both did not OWN the power and authority which is clear from the fact that they HANDED IT BACK when the task was over. The Lord God, the king (Xerxes), the Pharoah, was ALWAYS the ultimate ruler.

Imagine you lend your car to your son. He encounters a police officer who asks him, ‘who is in charge of this car?’. He says, ‘I am’. The officer then asks, ‘Are you the owner of the car?’. Your son correctly says, ‘No. my dad is! ... but he GAVE ME THE KEYS (power snd authority) TO USE for the purpose, I will HAND THEM BACK TO HIM.’
You see, although your is holding the keys to the car, In Charge, he still is not the ultimate OWNER.

Now, when that is shown to a trinitarian (I’m not calling you one such, just saying a truth for the sake of it) they never react because they know that these are prophesies pertaining to Jesus. But since the prophesies proves their ideology is wrong, they ignore it.... ignore the truth for the sake of retaining their false ideology....
What you're suggesting here is that having been made king, after being heir, he hands back dominion to his Father. I don't see that in scripture.

How do you explain Psalm 29:10. 'yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever'?

Revelation 11:15. 'And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever'.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
and HE said of Himself.......BROTHER and fellow servant
if God is not His Father........
and having recited the Our Father.......no doubt you have
you have declared YOURSELF a son of God
heaven heard it
so too the devil
What EXACTLY are you trying to say here, Thief ?? Are you referring to John 8:42 and the Lord's Prayer ??
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
I don't read bold. You'd have to unbold it so I can read your comments.

Where does it say "jesus IS the creator."
The problem with your idea of God is that you have a thinking that God should be something like a person.
He is either the creator, or he is not.
If He is 3 persons, then He is 3 Gods.
This is not what the Bible reveals of God at all.
The Bible is veryy clear, YHWH is the Creator, the ONE God.
This God YHWH, has a Spirit and a Mind (Word), which can exit the existance of YHWH, and enter into YHWH's creation.

The Holy Ghost was present as the Spirit of YHWH, when YHWH created everything, and the Word was the creating intelligence which eventually came to earth and lived in a human body, untill He ascended back into heaven to the YHWH existence where He came from.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
2 Corinthians 5:19. 'To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.'

True, it IS service that a Christian offers to Jesus Christ, because a true believer is born again of his Spirit and walks by his Spirit. It is, therefore, perfectly accurate to say that 'God is in Christ'. But it is wrong to think that Jesus Christ is only given authority over his earthly subjects. Jesus Christ is king over ALL in heaven, in earth, and under the earth [Philippians 2:10]

Hi.
Absolutely, my comment did not imply that Jesus's God given authority is subject to restrictions apart from those God himself laid upon him .
"who [although] existing in the form of God, counted not the being, on an equality with God a thing to be grasped." American Standard version.

Cheers.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
Col 2:9 ]
It's true, the Father and Holy Spirit are dwelling in Christ, literally in His body, in full measure just as the Father and Son literally come and make their home in .


Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.
A closer look at other translation gives us a better understanding of Paul's comment, for example:"...fullness of the divinity..." Kingdom Interlinear.
other words it's the divine "quality" of God that dwells bodily in the person not God himself, this understanding is confirmed by other translations as well.

The belief that God can literally live in another person or object is called Animism and is not a Bible teaching.

Cheers
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
What you're suggesting here is that having been made king, after being heir, he hands back dominion to his Father. I don't see that in scripture.
I think you are cherry picking aspects of what is written in the scriptures. This cherry picking will always lead to misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

You rightly say you do not see the Son being King and then handing back the kingdom - because it is not in the scriptures.

Jesus is NOT KING over Heaven (God’s eternal spiritual kingdom) and earth (the physical created kingdom prepared for THE SON OF HIS LOVE... more on this if you don’t understand or want to know)) AT THE TIME PERIOD you outlined - His kingdom (when DOES become King) will be over THE CREATED WORLD ruling on the ‘spiritual’ throne of his forefather, (king) David. This rulership is the FINALE to the scriptures and therefore obviously not during his ‘temporary reign’ in reconciling ‘all things to himself’. Almighty God, just as Pharoah, just as king Xerxes, DELEGATES their power and authority to the respective delegate FOR the purpose of carrying out the task assigned to them. No where does scriptures say that during this reconciliation time is anyone THE, or A, King, such that they then become later Not King. A delegate does not profess himself AS the delegator: The DEPUTY Prime Minister (UK) called to do his duty does not then ASSUME the title of PRIME MINISTER but is always addressed as Deputy Prime Minister. An heir would never call himself King while the king lives.
How do you explain Psalm 29:10. 'yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever'?
’LORD’, I’m sure you know by now (else how are you debating here!) is a title word for the name of Almighty God of the Jews and Christians: ‘YHWH’. That (seemingly a revelation to you!!) should put that question to bed. Almighty God is ETERNALLY KING over HEAVEN AND CREATION... Creation is a limited physical Kingdom WITHIN the limitless spiritual kingdom of Heaven. As Jesus says to the apostles:
  • “My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?“ (John 14:2)
The ‘House’ and all its many rooms is eternally ruled by the Father; one ‘room’ in the house WILL BE ruled by the Son.

The Father rules eternally over the house and all within.
The son WILL rule over a room eternally.
Revelation 11:15. 'And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever'.
The writer is calling Almighty God; the Father, ‘Lord’. Clearly, ‘His Christ’ (which is ‘His ANOINTED ONE’) is the Son, Jesus.

As I read it, the verse speaks of the time when the Son (The Christ) restores the kingdom of God (the whole of everything, the reconciliation) so God is is ‘All in all’: Almighty:
  • “When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.” (1 Cor 15:28)

ONE IMPORTANT MESSAGE: I would caution any one in debating about interpretations of things written in the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation is not a book to trivially attempt to interpret - it is not given to many to righteously interpret it - and - it is a time determined... the revelations in Revelation is seeped over generations so beware of incorrect and invalid interpretations by unqualified person no matter how seemingly qualified. It might just be their ego that is speaking!
 
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