Happy for other people

Conscious thoughts said:

Most ofen when i speak with other religious peope i can hear if they are happy or not in the way they speak
But they could of course be hiding something i could not pick up on.

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Personally, I have to watch people for awhile, and I have met people who most certainly it seemed their religion made them fearful, grumpy, antisocial, and generally unhappy. Why would I wish that on someone? Have you see families where one or more people got all 'religious' all of a sudden, and caused disharmony in the family. Imagine someone going to a family reunion, and preaching at everyone about the evils of alcohol. It doesn't work when the other members just want to sit around and have a beer or two.

Vinayaka said:

Personally, I have to watch people for awhile, and I have met people who most certainly it seemed their religion made them fearful, grumpy, antisocial, and generally unhappy. Why would I wish that on someone? Have you see families where one or more people got all 'religious' all of a sudden, and caused disharmony in the family. Imagine someone going to a family reunion, and preaching at everyone about the evils of alcohol. It doesn't work when the other members just want to sit around and have a beer or two.

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Personally i have not experiences others in the way you describe in your reply @Vinayaka
That does not mean those kind of people do not exist

Conscious thoughts said:

Personally i have not experiences others in the way you describe in your reply @Vinayaka
That does not mean those kind of people do not exist

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To clarify, I'm certainly happy for people who find peace. They do outnumber the others. But surely you've heard of youth getting radicalized. They find a brotherhood.

Conscious thoughts said:

My answer may come short according to what you actually asked due to that i am still working on this topic within my self, i belive there is a form of unconditional love or happiness for every human being within us, and at the moment i am digging deeper and deeper within my own being to find those deeper answers (did this sound to complicated? )

In this setting i was only speaking of judgment toward my own being, not about judment of others.
To me: judment is a negative charged word, and i try avoiding it. And happiness is a positive charged words that reflects more of whom i am becoming.

Your questions making me have to digg deep within my own being to find a good enough answer, because i find your questions very good. I am happy (pun not intended) that you take your time to ask your questions, because it show me where i have to do more research within my self

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You're supposed to know all the answers, you know that

Vinayaka said:

To clarify, I'm certainly happy for people who find peace. They do outnumber the others. But surely you've heard of youth getting radicalized. They find a brotherhood.

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Yes i know of those who are radicalized. I belive one can be happy for the person, but seeing their action, words or thoughs as a hindrance for their development of goodness (i do not think that make me judge them as humans)
Even seeing humans from a loving and kindness point of view do not mean one have to love or even support their action, words or thoughts when what they do is harmful to them self or others.
But maybe it is possible to have compassion toward them in that one wish them to open their eyes and see what they doing is not a good thing?

Unveiled Artist said:

You're supposed to know all the answers, you know that

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Ohhh i am doomed Crap you got me there..... i am not all knowing after all

Vinayaka said:

Personally, I have to watch people for awhile, and I have met people who most certainly it seemed their religion made them fearful, grumpy, antisocial, and generally unhappy. Why would I wish that on someone? Have you see families where one or more people got all 'religious' all of a sudden, and caused disharmony in the family. Imagine someone going to a family reunion, and preaching at everyone about the evils of alcohol. It doesn't work when the other members just want to sit around and have a beer or two.

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My mother very firmly blames the fact that her and my dad's relationship fell apart(and eventually led to divorce) on religion.

Before I was born, the were culturally Christian, but it didn't go very deep. They didn't attend church, and they had an active social life. They were laid back, and went camping a lot. They were casual drinkers, and they had fun together. She said when I was born(she never blamed it on me, she was just giving a timeline) he got the idea in his head that they needed to change, and become conservative Christians. The fun stopped. The church started. His attitude changed. The friends were gone. Doom and gloom(he became overly focused on the book of Revelations) came in. Everybody was a moral threat(including programs on TV). For awhile, she went along with it, but you can't fight who you are forever. She became resentful of his constant disapproval and negative outlook, and filed for divorce(over a long messy process that took years). So I know exactly what you mean here... Dad was often angry because, despite his best efforts, Christianity wasn't taking with the family, and Mom was always trying to get away from him and it, and guess who got stuck babysitting while they were both absent...(one at work on a trucking route, the other trying to live the life he was denying her while he was home).

I'm happy for people who have some true values in their life. Anytime I see genuine love , it's inspiring.

JustGeorge said:

My mother very firmly blames the fact that her and my dad's relationship fell apart(and eventually led to divorce) on religion.

Before I was born, the were culturally Christian, but it didn't go very deep. They didn't attend church, and they had an active social life. They were laid back, and went camping a lot. They were casual drinkers, and they had fun together. She said when I was born(she never blamed it on me, she was just giving a timeline) he got the idea in his head that they needed to change, and become conservative Christians. The fun stopped. The church started. His attitude changed. The friends were gone. Doom and gloom(he became overly focused on the book of Revelations) came in. Everybody was a moral threat(including programs on TV). For awhile, she went along with it, but you can't fight who you are forever. She became resentful of his constant disapproval and negative outlook, and filed for divorce(over a long messy process that took years). So I know exactly what you mean here... Dad was often angry because, despite his best efforts, Christianity wasn't taking with the family, and Mom was always trying to get away from him and it, and guess who got stuck babysitting while they were both absent...(one at work on a trucking route, the other trying to live the life he was denying her while he was home).

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I'm sorry you had to go through that. It's never been that close for me. My brother's brother-in-law went similarly all in with fundamentalist Christianity, and my SIL's family is sad about it. I was happy for my dentist who got out of that. So sometimes the happiness is when they get out, become less 'religious', not more.

Vinayaka said:

I'm sorry you had to go through that. It's never been that close for me. My brother's brother-in-law went similarly all in with fundamentalist Christianity, and my SIL's family is sad about it. I was happy for my dentist who got out of that. So sometimes the happiness is when they get out, become less 'religious', not more.

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I am happy to say the direction of my dad's religion has changed through the years. He is still very much a Christian, but he's more concerned with his own path than the path of others, and focusing on living the teachings of the New Testament rather than doom and gloom prophecies. He'll even discuss religion(as in productive back in forth conversation, not 'right or wrong' accusations) with his Hindu daughter.

Its nice to see your parent grow up...

JustGeorge said:

I am happy to say the direction of my dad's religion has changed through the years. He is still very much a Christian, but he's more concerned with his own path than the path of others, and focusing on living the teachings of the New Testament rather than doom and gloom prophecies. He'll even discuss religion(as in productive back in forth conversation, not 'right or wrong' accusations) with his Hindu daughter.

Its nice to see your parent grow up...

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Frankly, maybe it's my age, but I have little tolerance for 'in your face' preaching. I remember how when my dentist asked me for some advice, or for his curiousity about the Hindu view on gay (his son is gay, which was the catalyst for his change) , how I told him that if he would have ever preached at me, I would have quietly found a new dentist, and he wouldn't have been privy to why. Not worth it to me any more. I've walked out of businesses. There are lots of other businesses who are tolerant.

Vinayaka said:

Frankly, maybe it's my age, but I have little tolerance for 'in your face' preaching. I remember how when my dentist asked me for some advice, or for his curiousity about the Hindu view on gay (his son is gay, which was the catalyst for his change) , how I told him that if he would have ever preached at me, I would have quietly found a new dentist, and he wouldn't have been privy to why. Not worth it to me any more. I've walked out of businesses. There are lots of other businesses who are tolerant.

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I am fortunate that I haven't experienced any preaching or discrimination from the general world as a Hindu. I can't say that from my 15 or so years within Paganism, though. Honestly, I'd never reflected on that fact until now.

JustGeorge said:

I am fortunate that I haven't experienced any preaching or discrimination from the general world as a Hindu. I can't say that from my 15 or so years within Paganism, though. Honestly, I'd never reflected on that fact until now.

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I got it from my Dad. He really couldn't stand it. When he lost his driving license for some dementia and eyesight issues, we moved him to a small apartment complex thing near to a retirement complex. He had the option to eat at the main complex, and on the first day there, some bible thumper joined him, uninvited. He never ate there again, but made his own 'meals' or went out. He passed within the year after going in there, lucky guy.

Conscious thoughts said:

Maybe it is only me, but i struggle with understanding why we should not be happy for other people who found the calling in of spirituality or religion other than the one we follow our self.
Why does it seem so difficult for some, to be happy and helpful to those of a different belief than their own?

There is some wonderful people in every religion who we can learn from, not from their teaching maybe, but the way they live their life and how they treat others with respect and humbleness.

Here in RF there are some amazing people from totally different religions and no religion at all who i honestly admire for their wisdom.

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Some of the best people I've known have had at least part of their worldview rooted in some form of religious belief. Some others didn't. But there were common threads that connected what I respected about them, around how they considered and included others, and how they clearly stood for certain things, and exhibited those behaviors and actions regardless of personal gain.

I've learned a lot from those folk.

lewisnotmiller said:

Some of the best people I've known have had at least part of their worldview rooted in some form of religious belief. Some others didn't. But there were common threads that connected what I respected about them, around how they considered and included others, and how they clearly stood for certain things, and exhibited those behaviors and actions regardless of personal gain.

I've learned a lot from those folk.

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I have to agree with you here LnM. Our associates can be people from all walks of life and with differing values and religious beliefs....or no beliefs at all.....but that should never mean that you would choose to avoid them entirely because work demands and other commitments in life would make that impossible. It would drive them and us ...nuts!

But close friends are usually those who share our values to a great extent and those who uplift us in their company, rather than to judge us and bring us down. There is a clear distinction given in the scriptures that I believe is important to my own stance on things....
1 Corinthians 5:9-13....
"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world....I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man."

So the advice is clear IMO.....you avoid those who are hypocrites in the faith, because they would bring you down more than any unbeliever.....but get along with others because they do not share that obligation or commitment. Be at peace with them.

That is how I see it anyway.....

Conscious thoughts said:

Maybe it is only me, but i struggle with understanding why we should not be happy for other people who found the calling in of spirituality or religion.

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Hi CT.
I'm not unhappy that folks have beliefs.
What makes me unhappy is how so many beliefs look at the rest of the world as being without the only God, their God, and/or how anybody outside their beliefs is going to be in everlasting torture while they bask in the bosom of their beloved.
If you are not with them then you are 'wrong', attitude.
I can acknowledge anybody's beliefs but the arrogant and self righteous ones can get lost.

Conscious thoughts said:

Who is the one desiding what is bad for others? Is it our own opinion, or is based of belief that only one religion can be true and all the rest is wrong?

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Yes, it is each of us, deciding what we think is "bad for others." Why do so many seem to lack understanding of this? This is how the best of human societal living works. All of us and each of us, collectively and separately, coming to various rulings on what we want used to govern ourselves and each other, and working concertedly to put those ideas into practice. At least - that's the theory. Obviously we fall short of the ideal for this that we might have in our minds. But things like slavery, abortion, etc. - these are things our masses have wrestled with and come to various rulings on - by criticizing one another, challenging the thoughts of one another, seeking mutual understanding even if not full acceptance, and in many cases crafting laws and controls regardless what the minority-affected party thinks of those rules/laws.

So, yes - the best of societies will continue to have dialogue within which some practices or ideas come under scrutiny and are sometimes deemed to be dangerous or not worth the effort it takes to protect them. If, for example, a religion came onto the scene that actively promoted and instructed its followers to go out and harm people, do you believe that no one would intervene because of "religious freedom?" I don't think very many societies would put up with it. There comes a time to draw a line in the sand - like the government/authority reaction to things like cult compounds where people have taken on a violent or insurrectionist stance. They get shut down. Invaded, crashed, stopped. Those types of things can't be allowed to go on - regardless anyone's idea of them being "religious" in nature.

This is not me saying that your beliefs (whatever they are) are some dangerous cult uprising. It is me saying that a criticism or questioning of your ideas from time to time is to be expected. If people are perceiving a harm, being done, they are bound to speak up about it at some point - even if their perception is somewhat askew and there is no actual harm where they felt they saw it.

A Vestigial Mote said:

Yes, it is each of us, deciding what we think is "bad for others." Why do so many seem to lack understanding of this? This is how the best of human societal living works. All of us and each of us, collectively and separately, coming to various rulings on what we want used to govern ourselves and each other. At least - that's the theory. Obviously, in practice, we fall short of even that ideal at times. But things like slavery, abortion, etc. - these are things our masses have wrestled with and come to various rulings on - by criticizing one another, challenging the thoughts of one another, seeking mutual understanding even if not full acceptance, and in many cases crafting laws and controls regardless what the minority-affected party thinks of those rules/laws.

So, yes - the best of societies will continue to have dialogue within which some practices or ideas come under scrutiny and are sometimes deemed to be dangerous or not worth the effort it takes to protect them. If, for example, there a religion came onto the scene that actively promoted and instructed its followers to go out and harm people, do you believe that no one would intervene because of "religious freedom?" I don't think very many societies would put up with it. There comes a time to draw a line in the sand - like the government/authority reaction to things like cult compounds where people have taken on a violent or insurrectionist stance. They get shut down. Invaded, crashed, stopped. Those types of things can't be allowed to go on - regardless anyone's idea of them being "religious" in nature.

This is not me saying that your beliefs (whatever they are) are some dangerous cult uprising. It is me saying that a criticism or questioning of your ideas from time to time is to be expected. If people are perceiving a harm, being done, they are bound to speak up about it at some point - even if their perception is somewhat askew and there is no actual harm where they felt they saw it.

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I can not speak for others who are religious or spiritual, But i believe asking one self questions every day about what one doing or if it is a rightroues way is within the teaching. I believe question self is more important than question others.

Conscious thoughts said:

I can not speak for others who are religious or spiritual, But i believe asking one self questions every day about what one doing or if it is a rightroues way is within the teaching. I believe question self is more important than question others.

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I don't think so. It takes both. Those cult compounds I mentioned - the ones that get really bad are likely that way because no one in the compound feels they have the authority to question the others. It is important to feel that your concerns are valid or being heard, and important to try and make them be heard if it is important to you. Perhaps there are others who feel the same way, but how will you ever know unless you speak your mind and take that step to receive feedback from those others? Maybe you are strongly in the minority, and your ideas get shut down.

For example - let's say one among the group is racist, and doesn't feel that any black people belong in the group. When they voice their opinion, and try out the waters, perhaps everyone tells them that it is a nasty opinion or idea to be having, and they learn that their opinion isn't going to fly as the ruling idea over the group. It is in that moment that they should then begin some self-reflection to figure out why it is they feel that way, and whether or not it is "right" in the greater scope.

If, however, someone notices that kids in the group are being treated unfairly - that the adults who do work are given some form of compensation, for example, and the kids are put to work just as often, but are given no compensation, then perhaps if they voice their opinion on this matter there will be others who agree with them, and perhaps those of the group who believe the kids are being treated unfairly can sway the others over to their line of thinking, get a majority, and get things changed.

Ultimately, others choices and actions simply must be questioned. They must - in all avenues of activity. Religion does not get a "free pass" from this "just because." I get that it is a sensitive subject for many, and very likely because they have very little substantiation and it becomes extremely uncomfortable to try and defend something for which you have no solid basis to begin with. I understand it... I just don't care.

A Vestigial Mote said:

I don't think so. It takes both. Those cult compounds I mentioned - the ones that get really bad are likely that way because no one in the compound feels they have the authority to question the others. It is important to feel that your concerns are valid or being heard, and important to try and make them be heard if it is important to you. Perhaps there are others who feel the same way, but how will you ever know unless you speak your mind and take that step to receive feedback from those others? Maybe you are strongly in the minority, and your ideas get shut down.

For example - let's say one among the group is racist, and doesn't feel that any black people belong in the group. When they voice their opinion, and try out the waters, perhaps everyone tells them that it is a nasty opinion or idea to be having, and they learn that their opinion isn't going to fly as the ruling idea over the group. It is in that moment that they should then begin some self-reflection to figure out why it is they feel that way, and whether or not it is "right" in the greater scope.

If, however, someone notices that kids in the group are being treated unfairly - that the adults who do work are given some form of compensation, for example, and the kids are put to work just as often, but are given no compensation, then perhaps if they voice their opinion on this matter there will be others who agree with them, and perhaps those of the group who believe the kids are being treated unfairly can sway the others over to their line of thinking, get a majority, and get things changed.

Ultimately, others choices and actions simply must be questioned. They must - in all avenues of activity. Religion does not get a "free pass" from this "just because." I get that it is a sensitive subject for many, and very likely because they have very little substantiation and it becomes extremely uncomfortable to try and defend something for which you have no solid basis to begin with. I understand it... I just don't care.

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You can keep asking others the questions you may have
Personally i ask less and less questions toward other religious people, and instead a compassion for their way of living their life arise. I am happy for those who found the answer they been looking for. And i do not have to question them just to be the one who are correct or better.