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Loved ones in hell - take 2.

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I told you many posts ago that the prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah are not the best evidence and they are not the evidence that Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at. In fact, He never told us to look at the prophecies, that is just something I did because Iwas posting to Christians.

Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Then why bother with the prophecies at all?

I also told you that they all pass your criteria although no prophecy can pass #5 because all prophecies no matter how specific they are can be interpreted in more than one way.

All prophecies that exist in the real world that I'm aware of, yes. But that vague language is not something that prophecies are required to have. It's possible to produce a prophecy that has very clear and concise language.

The fact that prophecies never have it is a result of the fact that the prophets who provide these prophecies are full of bunk and they know that they have to be vague because anything that is actually specific will be easily disproved.

I never claimed that is why I know. I know because if the evidence (see above).

Since we are not talking of the evidence for your faith, but for the validity of prophecies regardless of the faith, I won't reply to this.

Yes, that is true in some cases.

I think more like ALL cases.

They do pass all your criteria except #5 The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation. I contest that being on your list because there is no prophecy that is not open to different interpretations no matter how specific it is. This prophecy I cited before is very specific:

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

While there is only one correct interpretation, people do not all interpret it the same way. For example, someone could not figure out who he referred to so that person changed he to they!

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(12) In that day also he shall come.—Rather translate, In that day shall they (impersonal) come even to thee from Assyria and (from) the cities of Matzor (i.e., Egypt), and from Matzor even to the river (Euphrates), and from sea to sea, and (from) mountain to mountain. The prophet beholds people coming from all parts of the earth to Jerusalem. Isaiah foresaw the like future, and spoke of Assyria, Egypt, and Israel being assembled together, “whom the Lord of Hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt, my people, and Assyria, the work of my hands, and Israel, mine inheritance” (Isaiah 19:25). The Christian reader can hardly refrain from discerning on the horizon of Micah’s vision that marvellous assembly of the representatives of the nations in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost.

It says he, not they. It is referring to the Messiah who was Baha’u’llah and who travelled to all those places, not of his own free will but because he was banished and exiled for 40 years.

But does it meet the new first criteria, that it isn't something that is likely to happen anyway?

Prophecy

· the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.

· something that is declared by a prophet, especially a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation.

· a divinely inspired utterance or revelation: oracular prophecies.

· the action, function, or faculty of a prophet.

Definition of prophecy | Dictionary.com

A prophecy is a prediction of what is to come so the prophet who wrote the prophecy had to have some knowledge of what was going to happen in the future in order to write the prophecy. What the prophet knew in the past has nothing to do with the man who read the Bible and later decided to do what the prophecy says.

I prophecise that before the end of this month, you will go to the toilet more than a dozen times! You will also bathe frequently!

Behold, I am a prophet now! And if my prophecies come to pass, you must respect my authority!

See the problem here? I know for a fact that you are definitely going to go to the toilet before this month is over. That doesn't make me a prophet. And it doesn't mean my announcement about your future toilet habits is a prophecy.

You said: And if the prophecy was only fulfilled because someone embellished the event that allegedly fulfilled it to make it look like the prophecy was correct, but the actual event didn't happen as described and so didn't fulfill the prophecy, then again, it's not worth bothering with it because the claim it was fulfilled is wrong.

The prophecy would still be correct as written, but if a man embellished the event that the prophecy was referring to in order to make it appear as if it had been fulfilled, then the actual event didn't happen as described and so didn't fulfill the prophecy.

Do you think that a prophecy is correct before it has been fulfilled? I don't see why we should hold that position.

In that case, it would not be not worth bothering with the man who claimed to have fulfilled the prophecy because he would have been a phony because his claim that it was fulfilled is wrong. However, the prophecy is still right and another man might come along and fulfill it by doing what was written in the prophecy, not deliberately, but because that is what he was destined by God to do.

No. You can't say a prophecy is correct just because it MIGHT be fulfilled.

I could claim to be a millionaire and say that I'm correct because I MIGHT win the lotto tomorrow.

Apparently we are talking at cross purposes because I am assuming a divinely inspired scripture that truly predicts the future Second Coming of Christ/Messiah and you are talking about anyone who could have been an idiot, who might have had knowledge of the future. The problem with your proposition is that if it was not a divinely inspired prophet who predicted the Second Coming of Christ/Messiah, whatever was predicted would have been of no importance, so who cares if this person did somehow have knowledge of the future? Do you understand what I am saying?

The problem, though, is this. If you see an old text with a prophecy in it, how do you tell the difference between something that was written by some joker making up whatever nonsense he felt like and something that was written because God gave them information about the future?

I am glad you removed that criterion because I did not really understand what you were getting at. From my perspective, the need for several prophecies about the same thing would mean that there would need to be several prophecies that refer to one event that will take place when Christ returns, and there are several prophecies about the same events in the Bible. However there is not always more than one prophecy about the same event and that is not a requirement in order for a prophecy pertaining to an event to be valid.

Actually, I believe the idea about having several prophecies that all speak of the same thing was your idea.

Are you saying that if there is only one prophecy pointing to one person (e.g. Micah 7:12), if the fulfillment of that prophecy passes all your criteria you would be willing to believe that the person who fulfilled the prophecy was the man that the prophecy was referring to?

It would certainly make me sit up and take notice, that's for sure.

But I have a few questions.

Is Micah 7:12 part of the official collection of Baha’i writings? The Universal House of Justice was asked about this in 1998, and they said it wasn't.

Also, Micah 7:11 specifies that the prophecy places the time of the fulfillment at the same time that the walls were rebuilt. This happened in 445 BC when Artaxerxes, king of Persia, allowed his Judean cupbearer, Nehemiah, to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall.

Baha’is Misinterpret Micah 7:12

I have a bit of a problem with this criterion because I have been thinking about something completely different from what you are thinking about. I am thinking about the Second Coming of Christ/coming of the Messiah which is supposed to happen eventually as predicted (prophesied) in the Old Testament.

Once again, I am talking about criteria to be applied to prophecies in general, not one specifically.

Anyway, since Jesus returning from heaven is something that I would consider NOT likely to happen anyway, a prophecy about such an event would pass the first criteria.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Then why bother with the prophecies at all?
I told you it was because I was posting to Christians and they consider the Bible prophecies important as proof of Baha’u’llah. Also, I find them rather fascinating because they are so accurate in describing what was going to happen when Christ returned.
All prophecies that exist in the real world that I'm aware of, yes. But that vague language is not something that prophecies are required to have. It's possible to produce a prophecy that has very clear and concise language.
It is possible but since such prophecies don’t exist, why bother talking about them? Moreover, there are some prophecies that are clear and even then people don’t understand what they mean, or don’t want to face what they mean.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

If Jesus finished the work God gave him to do on earth, why would he be coming back, unless there was another verse that said he was coming back to do more work, but there are no such verses.
The fact that prophecies never have it is a result of the fact that the prophets who provide these prophecies are full of bunk and they know that they have to be vague because anything that is actually specific will be easily disproved.
Why would it matter to the Old Testament prophets if their prophecies were disproven thousands of years later? I guess we should switch over to talking about other prophets who you apparently believe are full of bunk and trying to prove they are legitimate prophets. So apparently you are saying that if such prophets predicted something specific and it never happened that would prove they were frauds, but if they predicted something vague then something vague could be considered a fulfillment of that prophecy?
I think more like ALL cases.
I will concede to that.
But does it meet the new first criteria, that it isn't something that is likely to happen anyway?
Was it likely to happen that the Messiah would take that exact same route that Baha’u’llah travelled in His exiles and banishments in that exact order? Who would have guessed the Messiah would have done this?

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
I prophecise that before the end of this month, you will go to the toilet more than a dozen times! You will also bathe frequently!

Behold, I am a prophet now! And if my prophecies come to pass, you must respect my authority!

See the problem here? I know for a fact that you are definitely going to go to the toilet before this month is over. That doesn't make me a prophet. And it doesn't mean my announcement about your future toilet habits is a prophecy.
You are mixing up apples and oranges. The Old Testament prophets did not write prophecies that were about ordinary things that people do on a daily basis. On Old Testament prophet like Isaiah had to have some specific knowledge of what was going to happen in the future in order to write the prophecy like these:

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8).

"And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10).
Do you think that a prophecy is correct before it has been fulfilled? I don't see why we should hold that position.
I think we are talking at cross purposes. The prophecy is correct because it predicts something that is going to happen, but it has not been fulfilled correctly until that prediction comes true. So for example, regarding Isaiah 35:8, until there is highway that can be called the way of holiness; and until the unclean are passing over it we cannot say that the prophecy has been fulfilled; and regarding Isaiah 10, until the ransomed of the LORD return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads we cannot say that the prophecy has been fulfilled.

But these things have happened so the prophecies have been fulfilled. Between the two great Bahá'í gardens that go halfway up the mountainside, runs a broad highway. Through the gates leading from this highway stream pilgrims and visitors from all parts of the world. They come with hearts full of joy and gladness, and the sound of their beautiful chanting can be heard on that mountainside.
No. You can't say a prophecy is correct just because it MIGHT be fulfilled.
I can say it was written correctly and that will be proven when it is fulfilled, as noted above.
I could claim to be a millionaire and say that I'm correct because I MIGHT win the lotto tomorrow.
But the Old Testament prophets were not trying to WIN anything or PROVE anything.
The problem, though, is this. If you see an old text with a prophecy in it, how do you tell the difference between something that was written by some joker making up whatever nonsense he felt like and something that was written because God gave them information about the future?
You know that because you have faith in the Bible and you really know it like I know it when you see what those prophets predicted coming to pass exactly as they predicted it would, right down to the terrain of the land where it was fulfilled! And yes, this was verified by research.

"I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water." (Isaiah 41:18).

"I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together." (Isaiah 41:19).
Actually, I believe the idea about having several prophecies that all speak of the same thing was your idea.
My memory is good, but apparently yours is better.
It would certainly make me sit up and take notice, that's for sure.
But I have a few questions.

Is Micah 7:12 part of the official collection of Baha’i writings? The Universal House of Justice was asked about this in 1998, and they said it wasn't.
Of course it isn’t part of the Baha’i Writings, it is a Bible verse.
Also, Micah 7:11 specifies that the prophecy places the time of the fulfillment at the same time that the walls were rebuilt. This happened in 445 BC when Artaxerxes, king of Persia, allowed his Judean cupbearer, Nehemiah, to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall.

Baha’is Misinterpret Micah 7:12
Oh I see the Christians are after the Baha’is again. :rolleyes:
Christian ex-Baha’i? I cannot even imagine why that would be biased. ;)

Good luck with that because the Christians will never win. Their own Bible proves that are wrong about the same Jesus returning someday, which is what they are hoping for.

No, the prophecy does not refer to the walls that were rebuilt in 445 BC

Micah 7:11 1n the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.

The decree was removed in 1844, the exact year when the Bab came to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah:

Edict of Toleration 1844

An edict of toleration is a declaration, made by a government or ruler and states, that members of a given religion will not be persecuted for engaging in their religious practices and traditions. The edict implies tacit acceptance of the religion rather than its endorsement by the ruling power.

Edict of toleration - Wikipedia
Once again, I am talking about criteria to be applied to prophecies in general, not one specifically.
Okay, fair enough.
Anyway, since Jesus returning from heaven is something that I would consider NOT likely to happen anyway, a prophecy about such an event would pass the first criteria.
YOU would not consider it likely to happen but you are not the one waiting for Jesus to return. Jesus returning from heaven in the clouds is exactly what Christians have been expecting and waiting for and since Baha’u’llah did not come that way that is one reason he was rejected by Christians. That is al chronicled in the history of the mid-19th century.

Great Disappointment

“The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.”

Baha’u’llah fits that description to a tee, because a Persian nobleman was the last person the Christians were expecting.

I am starting to see how all your criteria are useful. :)
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
It is possible but since such prophecies don’t exist, why bother talking about them?

Because they should exist.

If someone has clear knowledge about the future, there's nothing to stop them from saying it clearly. No need for the metaphor and poetry they always seem to use.

Moreover, there are some prophecies that are clear and even then people don’t understand what they mean, or don’t want to face what they mean.

If people still don't understand, then I'd say they weren't clear.

Why would it matter to the Old Testament prophets if their prophecies were disproven thousands of years later? I guess we should switch over to talking about other prophets who you apparently believe are full of bunk and trying to prove they are legitimate prophets. So apparently you are saying that if such prophets predicted something specific and it never happened that would prove they were frauds, but if they predicted something vague then something vague could be considered a fulfillment of that prophecy?

You miss my point.

I am saying that the fact that prophecies are always phrased in metaphor and other language that makes their meaning unclear is best explained by the fact that none of them are real. They were all written by people who were just making things up or as the result of hallucinations, etc. They used metaphor so that they could have various interpretations so that if something happened, they could twist the prophecy so they could say, "Look, if you interpret the prophecy this way, that event fulfills it, so I was right!"

I will concede to that.

Thank you.

Was it likely to happen that the Messiah would take that exact same route that Baha’u’llah travelled in His exiles and banishments in that exact order? Who would have guessed the Messiah would have done this?

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

I doubt he was the only person who took that route. And that route is hardly specific, is it?

You are mixing up apples and oranges. The Old Testament prophets did not write prophecies that were about ordinary things that people do on a daily basis. On Old Testament prophet like Isaiah had to have some specific knowledge of what was going to happen in the future in order to write the prophecy like these:

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8).

"And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10).

Please show how these prophecies meet all five criteria.

I think we are talking at cross purposes. The prophecy is correct because it predicts something that is going to happen, but it has not been fulfilled correctly until that prediction comes true.

Unfortunately, your claim that it is going to happen is just an assumption on your part. You cannot say it is correct until it is shown to be correct, and the only way that can happen is for it to be fulfilled.

So for example, regarding Isaiah 35:8, until there is highway that can be called the way of holiness; and until the unclean are passing over it we cannot say that the prophecy has been fulfilled; and regarding Isaiah 10, until the ransomed of the LORD return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads we cannot say that the prophecy has been fulfilled.

So they haven't yet come to pass. So you can't be sure they are real prophecies.

But these things have happened so the prophecies have been fulfilled. Between the two great Bahá'í gardens that go halfway up the mountainside, runs a broad highway. Through the gates leading from this highway stream pilgrims and visitors from all parts of the world. They come with hearts full of joy and gladness, and the sound of their beautiful chanting can be heard on that mountainside.

Is the highway called "The Way of Holiness? Are unclean people forbidden to travel on it? (What exactly does unclean mean here anyway?) Also, you haven't said exactly where this highway is. In any case, there are several interpretations about what it could mean. What is the highway of holiness (Isaiah 35:8)? | GotQuestions.org

I can say it was written correctly and that will be proven when it is fulfilled, as noted above.

If it hasn't been fulfilled yet, you can't say it was written correctly.

But the Old Testament prophets were not trying to WIN anything or PROVE anything.

You missed my point.

You know that because you have faith in the Bible and you really know it like I know it when you see what those prophets predicted coming to pass exactly as they predicted it would, right down to the terrain of the land where it was fulfilled! And yes, this was verified by research.

"I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water." (Isaiah 41:18).

"I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together." (Isaiah 41:19).

So someone said there would be springs in the desert and different plants growing together, and these meet all five criteria? I'd say that they fail on point 1 easily.

My memory is good, but apparently yours is better.

Not really, I just followed our conversation back via the posts we tagged each other in.

Of course it isn’t part of the Baha’i Writings, it is a Bible verse.

Then why are you using it?

Oh I see the Christians are after the Baha’is again. :rolleyes:
Christian ex-Baha’i? I cannot even imagine why that would be biased. ;)

Probably no more biased than a Baha'i trying to prove his faith has the prophecies on their side.

Good luck with that because the Christians will never win. Their own Bible proves that are wrong about the same Jesus returning someday, which is what they are hoping for.

Oh, I see the Baha'i is after the Christians again. :rolleyes: I cannot even imagine why that would be biased. ;)

No, the prophecy does not refer to the walls that were rebuilt in 445 BC

Micah 7:11 1n the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.

The decree was removed in 1844, the exact year when the Bab came to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah:

Edict of Toleration 1844

An edict of toleration is a declaration, made by a government or ruler and states, that members of a given religion will not be persecuted for engaging in their religious practices and traditions. The edict implies tacit acceptance of the religion rather than its endorsement by the ruling power.

Edict of toleration - Wikipedia

Please demonstrate how you have determined that this edict is the only possible decree that the passage can be referring to. Because I have a source that says it could refer to the Decree of Artaxerxes, forbidding and hindering the rebuilding of the city, or possibly the decree of Cyrus for rebuilding the city and temple; and which was revived and confirmed by Darius Hystaspis, and by Darius Longimanus, and which was published everywhere. Micah 7:11 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse

YOU would not consider it likely to happen but you are not the one waiting for Jesus to return. Jesus returning from heaven in the clouds is exactly what Christians have been expecting and waiting for and since Baha’u’llah did not come that way that is one reason he was rejected by Christians. That is al chronicled in the history of the mid-19th century.

Great Disappointment

“The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.”

Baha’u’llah fits that description to a tee, because a Persian nobleman was the last person the Christians were expecting.

You haven't shown it passes the other criteria yet.

I am starting to see how all your criteria are useful. :)

So I take it you have changed your mind from when you said you didn't go by my criteria back in post 308?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because they should exist.

If someone has clear knowledge about the future, there's nothing to stop them from saying it clearly. No need for the metaphor and poetry they always seem to use.
How do you know that did not need the metaphorical language on order to accomplish their goal?
If people still don't understand, then I'd say they weren't clear.
Some verses are perfectly clear. I would say that just don’t want to face reality so they ignore or deny the obvious plain meanings of the verses.
You miss my point.

I am saying that the fact that prophecies are always phrased in metaphor and other language that makes their meaning unclear is best explained by the fact that none of them are real. They were all written by people who were just making things up or as the result of hallucinations, etc. They used metaphor so that they could have various interpretations so that if something happened, they could twist the prophecy so they could say, "Look, if you interpret the prophecy this way, that event fulfills it, so I was right!"
I guess you missed my point. Why would it matter to the Old Testament prophets if their prophecies were twisted the interpretations of their prophecies thousands of years later? The prophets sometimes used metaphors when metaphors were appropriate to convey what they were trying to convey to spiritually-minded people who would understand the metaphors. The other people would not understand and they don’t matter because it was not intended that they would understand. This is how God separates the wheat from the chaff.

I doubt he was the only person who took that route. And that route is hardly specific, is it?

We went over this before. It does not matter of other people travelled that route and it would not matter unless they did everything else it says in that chapter. The verses need to be read and interpreted in context. Also, in order to be the return of Christ/Messiah they would also have to fulfill all the other prophecies, not just one.
Please show how these prophecies meet all five criteria.
The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.
· None of these things were likely to happen anyway.

Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.
· The events occurred in the 19th century, thousands of years after the prophecy was written in the Old Testament.

Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
· Yes they did. Read Thief in the Night if you want the details.

The fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.
· No, it wasn’t because Baha’u’llah had nothing to do with the fulfillment of these prophecies.

The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.
· They are specific, but all prophecies are open to interpretation. Otherwise we would not know what they mean.
Unfortunately, your claim that it is going to happen is just an assumption on your part. You cannot say it is correct until it is shown to be correct, and the only way that can happen is for it to be fulfilled.

It has been shown that the prophecies were fulfilled in the book Thief in the Night. There is no need for me to show what has already been shown.
So they haven't yet come to pass. So you can't be sure they are real prophecies.

They have come to pass as I noted below:

But these things have happened so the prophecies have been fulfilled. Between the two great Bahá'í gardens that go halfway up the mountainside, runs a broad highway. Through the gates leading from this highway stream pilgrims and visitors from all parts of the world. They come with hearts full of joy and gladness, and the sound of their beautiful chanting can be heard on that mountainside.
Is the highway called "The Way of Holiness? Are unclean people forbidden to travel on it? (What exactly does unclean mean here anyway?) Also, you haven't said exactly where this highway is. In any case, there are several interpretations about what it could mean. What is the highway of holiness (Isaiah 35:8)? | GotQuestions.org
That website has a very apt description of the highway of holiness, similar to what William Sears described in his book Thief in the Night.

From that website:

“The highway of holiness has three important characteristics. The first is found in Isaiah 35:8: “It will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it.” The highway of holiness is a place of holiness. It is reserved for those who are righteous in God’s sight. No one entering the kingdom will be foolish or sinful.”

“Second, the highway of holiness is a place of safety, reserved for the redeemed of the Lord. “No lion will be there, nor any ravenous beast; they will not be found there. But only the redeemed will walk there, and those the Lord has rescued will return” (Isaiah 35:9–10). This is indicative of the safety and security God’s people will experience on the highway. No wicked persons, symbolized by lions and ravenous beasts, will be allowed on the highway. The redeemed of the Lord will walk there in peace and safety.

Third, the highway of holiness will be a place of joy: “They will enter Zion with singing; everlasting joy will crown their heads. Gladness and joy will overtake them, and sorrow and sighing will flee away” (Isaiah 35:10). Just as the ransomed captives would return joyfully from Babylon, all the redeemed of the Lord will enter the millennial kingdom rejoicing.”

It’s just too bad the Christians are still waiting for the millennial kingdom to be established by Jesus because it was already ushered in by the Bab and Bahaullah in 1844 AD.

From that website:

“Christ alone provides the way of holiness, having exchanged His perfect righteousness for our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). His righteousness is imputed to us, enabling us to be holy, even as He is holy. The highway is reserved for His people alone.”

It is too bad that Christians are still waiting for that highway to be built and they believe that only Christians will be able to walk on that highway.

No, the highway has already been built and it is reserved for the Baha’is, since it was built for the Baha’i pilgrims, the only ones who recognized the return of Christ.

Below is a photo of the Baha’i pilgrims going up that highway of holiness.

e13101ap_people_streaming_up_rgb.jpg

If it hasn't been fulfilled yet, you can't say it was written correctly.
It has been fulfilled so I can say it was written correctly.
You missed my point.
What was that?
So someone said there would be springs in the desert and different plants growing together, and these meet all five criteria? I'd say that they fail on point 1 easily.
Yes, they meet all the criteria. I would say that do not fail on point 1, as these things were not likely to happen anyway. The problem with your point 1 is that it is subject to personal opinions about what is likely and personal opinions can never be proven.
Then why are you using it?
Because the Bible prophecies predicted the coming of Baha’u’llah, so we can match them up with what is recorded in history, including the history of the Baha’i Faith, and that is how we know that they were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.
Probably no more biased than a Baha'i trying to prove his faith has the prophecies on their side.
That does not involve bias, just proof, which we have. History and geography can’t lie, they are what they are.
Please demonstrate how you have determined that this edict is the only possible decree that the passage can be referring to. Because I have a source that says it could refer to the Decree of Artaxerxes, forbidding and hindering the rebuilding of the city, or possibly the decree of Cyrus for rebuilding the city and temple; and which was revived and confirmed by Darius Hystaspis, and by Darius Longimanus, and which was published everywhere. Micah 7:11 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
If you read that verse within the context of the whole chapter, it can be determined it cannot be referring to these decrees of 516 or 539 BC because the rest of the chapter does not take place during those times.

I have covered this ground before so I have a post I wrote previously. Please read the posts below.

#193 CG Didymus, Mar 8, 2020

#194 Trailblazer, Mar 8, 2020
You haven't shown it passes the other criteria yet.
What does “it” refer to?
So I take it you have changed your mind from when you said you didn't go by my criteria back in post 308?
I said they are useful, not that every prophecy has to pass them, although I would say that every prophecy has to pass criteria 2, 3, and 4, I have issues with 1 and 5, as I have pointed out. We can discuss those issues later if you want to.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
How do you know that did not need the metaphorical language on order to accomplish their goal?

Because I can communicate information without needing to resort to metaphorical language. One doesn't need to use metaphors to say that a king is going to die during an enemy invasion, for example.

Some verses are perfectly clear. I would say that just don’t want to face reality so they ignore or deny the obvious plain meanings of the verses.

They would say that they are very clearly NOT saying what you claim they are saying.

I guess you missed my point. Why would it matter to the Old Testament prophets if their prophecies were twisted the interpretations of their prophecies thousands of years later? The prophets sometimes used metaphors when metaphors were appropriate to convey what they were trying to convey to spiritually-minded people who would understand the metaphors. The other people would not understand and they don’t matter because it was not intended that they would understand. This is how God separates the wheat from the chaff.

Okay, so what are you saying prophecies are for? Are they to communicate information about the future? If so, then they don't need metaphors, they should just clearly say what's going to happen.

Are they to communicate some spiritual ideal? If so, then why bundle them with claims about future events?

We went over this before. It does not matter of other people travelled that route and it would not matter unless they did everything else it says in that chapter. The verses need to be read and interpreted in context. Also, in order to be the return of Christ/Messiah they would also have to fulfill all the other prophecies, not just one.

The claim that it needs to be taken in context is just another way of saying it is vague and ambiguous. So it fails at point 5.

The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.
· None of these things were likely to happen anyway.

So are you saying it is unlikely that anyone else came from Assyria and went to some "fortified cities" (how many? Which ones?), then to a river, then to a sea, then to a mountain? That could describe lots of people. Someone goes to an inland city, catches a boat (nearly all cities around the world are built on waterways, after all) and sails down the river to the sea (where else are you going to end up if you head downstream?) and then heads up a mountain.

There are also lots of roads that are used by the faithful of many different religions on holy pilgrimages to places where non-believers are not allowed.

Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.
· The events occurred in the 19th century, thousands of years after the prophecy was written in the Old Testament.

I'll accept that they were written before the event you claim fulfilled it.

Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
· Yes they did. Read Thief in the Night if you want the details.

Given that the prophecy is short on details, it would be easy to interpret it as such. That vagueness counts against it.

The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.
· They are specific, but all prophecies are open to interpretation. Otherwise we would not know what they mean.

No. If something is specific, it is NOT open to interpretation. If I say something specific, such as, "My car travelled 283.795 kilometers in the last seven days," that is not something open to interpretation. And being open to interpretation would make it HARDER to know what it means.

It has been shown that the prophecies were fulfilled in the book Thief in the Night. There is no need for me to show what has already been shown.

No, you said that the particular prediction has not yet come true.

But these things have happened so the prophecies have been fulfilled. Between the two great Bahá'í gardens that go halfway up the mountainside, runs a broad highway. Through the gates leading from this highway stream pilgrims and visitors from all parts of the world. They come with hearts full of joy and gladness, and the sound of their beautiful chanting can be heard on that mountainside.

And there's absolutely no chance that the people who made this had ever heard of that prophecy?

That website has a very apt description of the highway of holiness, similar to what William Sears described in his book Thief in the Night.

From that website:

“The highway of holiness has three important characteristics. The first is found in Isaiah 35:8: “It will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it.” The highway of holiness is a place of holiness. It is reserved for those who are righteous in God’s sight. No one entering the kingdom will be foolish or sinful.”

“Second, the highway of holiness is a place of safety, reserved for the redeemed of the Lord. “No lion will be there, nor any ravenous beast; they will not be found there. But only the redeemed will walk there, and those the Lord has rescued will return” (Isaiah 35:9–10). This is indicative of the safety and security God’s people will experience on the highway. No wicked persons, symbolized by lions and ravenous beasts, will be allowed on the highway. The redeemed of the Lord will walk there in peace and safety.

Third, the highway of holiness will be a place of joy: “They will enter Zion with singing; everlasting joy will crown their heads. Gladness and joy will overtake them, and sorrow and sighing will flee away” (Isaiah 35:10). Just as the ransomed captives would return joyfully from Babylon, all the redeemed of the Lord will enter the millennial kingdom rejoicing.”

It’s just too bad the Christians are still waiting for the millennial kingdom to be established by Jesus because it was already ushered in by the Bab and Bahaullah in 1844 AD.

From that website:

“Christ alone provides the way of holiness, having exchanged His perfect righteousness for our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). His righteousness is imputed to us, enabling us to be holy, even as He is holy. The highway is reserved for His people alone.”

It is too bad that Christians are still waiting for that highway to be built and they believe that only Christians will be able to walk on that highway.

No, the highway has already been built and it is reserved for the Baha’is, since it was built for the Baha’i pilgrims, the only ones who recognized the return of Christ.

Below is a photo of the Baha’i pilgrims going up that highway of holiness.

e13101ap_people_streaming_up_rgb.jpg

So you can personally couch for every single person who has walked that road? No one with even the slightest bit of wickedness has ever stepped foot there?

It has been fulfilled so I can say it was written correctly.

You say here that it HAS been fulfilled, but in post 342 you claimed it was talking about something that was GOING to happen.

What was that?

You can't say a prophecy is correct just because it MIGHT be fulfilled.

Yes, they meet all the criteria. I would say that do not fail on point 1, as these things were not likely to happen anyway. The problem with your point 1 is that it is subject to personal opinions about what is likely and personal opinions can never be proven.

Springs in the desert happen fairly regularly. You have heard of oases, yes?

Because the Bible prophecies predicted the coming of Baha’u’llah, so we can match them up with what is recorded in history, including the history of the Baha’i Faith, and that is how we know that they were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

So you can just take bits and pieces of other religious, interpret them to support your different religion, and then claim it proves you right?

That does not involve bias, just proof, which we have. History and geography can’t lie, they are what they are.

Special pleading. It is your interpretation I am questioning.

If you read that verse within the context of the whole chapter, it can be determined it cannot be referring to these decrees of 516 or 539 BC because the rest of the chapter does not take place during those times.

I have covered this ground before so I have a post I wrote previously. Please read the posts below.

#193 CG Didymus, Mar 8, 2020

#194 Trailblazer, Mar 8, 2020

You just claiming it was talking about the Edict of Toleration does not prove it.

What does “it” refer to?

I think it's very clear what the "it" is referring to.

I said they are useful, not that every prophecy has to pass them, although I would say that every prophecy has to pass criteria 2, 3, and 4, I have issues with 1 and 5, as I have pointed out. We can discuss those issues later if you want to.

Would you like to start a thread to discuss the criteria for prophecies?
 

Psalm23

Well-Known Member
Hi. I deleted my last post regarding this subject because the details were too raw and personal, and while I appreciated the responses, they digressed from the questions.

So, simply, my questions are 1.) If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved, do you still love them and cherish the memories, or do you try to bury it and let go? After all, once in heaven you'll forget anyway. Also, how do you deal with the thought of them suffering in eternal torment even though you know that they deserve it?


I would still love them and be grieved. In heaven, I wouldn’t want my mind to be wiped of a memory of someone I loved who was lost forever just so that I can be happy. That doesn’t seem to true peace and joy in the Lord in my opinion. As a Christian, I have thought about hell. Used to believe wholeheartedly in the fire and brimstone version but now, I’m not so sure what to believe as to how it is.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because I can communicate information without needing to resort to metaphorical language. One doesn't need to use metaphors to say that a king is going to die during an enemy invasion, for example.
Even if it was not needed it was used. It must have been used for a reason and only the authors know the reason since they wrote it. ALL of the prophecies are not written in metaphorical language, just some of them. We cannot know why they were written that way, we can only guess why. I told you ome of the reasons I believe they were written that way, because they were not intended ti be straightforward and easy to understand.

This article explains how to interpret prophecies:

Identifying Figurative Language to Interpret Prophecies
They would say that they are very clearly NOT saying what you claim they are saying.
If course they would say that if they do not want to face the meaning, but they never seem to come up with an alternative meaning. People can always twist meanings.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Some Christians say that Jesus might have finished certain work he was given to do but Jesus has more work to do. The salient problem is that Jesus never said anywhere in the New Testament that he had any more work to do. It’s all there in the Bible but Christians just don’t want to face the reality that Jesus is not coming back to earth, period.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Okay, so what are you saying prophecies are for? Are they to communicate information about the future? If so, then they don't need metaphors, they should just clearly say what's going to happen.

The prophets did not say it clearly possibly because (a) they did not know exactly what was going to happen in the future, and/or (b) the prophets did not want it to be as clear as YOU want it to be because if they were that clear then everyone would be able to figure them out, and that was never the intention of the prophets.
Are they to communicate some spiritual ideal? If so, then why bundle them with claims about future events?
They are really not bundled together, but spiritual ideals are also communicated via metaphors and anyone can understand these simple metaphors. For example:

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

There is a very similar passage in the Baha’i Writings:

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.

Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261

The claim that it needs to be taken in context is just another way of saying it is vague and ambiguous. So it fails at point 5.
Sorry but no. You are being illogical. All verses need to be read in context if you really want to know what they mean. Do you grab a book and just read one sentence and expect to understand what it means?

Regarding Micah 7:12, in order to know who “he” is you need to read the preceding verses in Micah 7.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Also, in order to know if he did what the verse says, you need to have a man in mind that might have traveled this route, so you can check the history to determine if he really traveled this route.
So are you saying it is unlikely that anyone else came from Assyria and went to some "fortified cities" (how many? Which ones?), then to a river, then to a sea, then to a mountain? That could describe lots of people. Someone goes to an inland city, catches a boat (nearly all cities around the world are built on waterways, after all) and sails down the river to the sea (where else are you going to end up if you head downstream?) and then heads up a mountain.
Someone might have taken such a route, but that is a moot point. We are not looking for just anyone; we are looking for someone in particular, the man who would be the return of Christ/Messiah, so that someone would have also have had to fulfill all the OTHER prophecies. That is the key.
There are also lots of roads that are used by the faithful of many different religions on holy pilgrimages to places where non-believers are not allowed.
So what? It is a moot point that there are other roads that the faithful travel. If you read the verse in context then you can figure out what the verse is referring to.

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8).

Where is “there”? If you read Isaiah 35: 1-2 you find out that the highway will be on Mount Carmel:

The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God. (Isaiah 35:1-2)
Given that the prophecy is short on details, it would be easy to interpret it as such. That vagueness counts against it.
The prophecies are always short on details. The details can be found in the explanations of how the prophecies were fulfilled.
No. If something is specific, it is NOT open to interpretation. If I say something specific, such as, "My car travelled 283.795 kilometers in the last seven days," that is not something open to interpretation. And being open to interpretation would make it HARDER to know what it means.
I guess you are still not getting my point. It is not supposed to be EASY to know what most prophecies mean. Being open to interpretation would make it HARDER to know what it means, and that is the intention. YOU don’t want it to be hard but you are not the one writing the prophecy.

Specific, do you mean like: John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. It still didn’t get the point across to Christians did it?
No, you said that the particular prediction has not yet come true.
No, I did not say that. All the prophecies that predicted the second coming of Christ/Messiah have some true, since Baha’u’llah came and fulfilled them.
And there's absolutely no chance that the people who made this had ever heard of that prophecy?

So what if they had heard of the prophecy? If you think they spent all that money to build the Baha’i World Centre on Mount Carmel in order to fool people into believing that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ you need to have your head examined. At some point common sense needs to be applied to your criteria #4.
So you can personally couch for every single person who has walked that road? No one with even the slightest bit of wickedness has ever stepped foot there?
The prophecy says:

Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

The road is reserved for people who are holy, for those who are righteous in God’s sight, not people who are foolish or sinful. The verse does not say that no one with even the slightest bit of wickedness has ever stepped foot there. The point is that the road was not built not FOR wicked people, it was for holy people. Again, your criteria fail if you cannot even use logic and common sense.
Springs in the desert happen fairly regularly. You have heard of oases, yes?
You either do not understand anything I have been saying or you or you are just trying to be difficult. It does not MATTER if springs pop up in OTHER deserts, it only matters if they have popped up in the deserts around Mount Carmel before, and no they haven’t seen anything like that landscape on Mount Carmel before the coming of Baha’u’llah.
So you can just take bits and pieces of other religious, interpret them to support your different religion, and then claim it proves you right?
I do not have to interpret them to support the Baha’i Faith; they support it because they were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.
Special pleading. It is your interpretation I am questioning.
How can history and geography be misinterpreted? Come up with another interpretation and I will be glad to look at it.
You just claiming it was talking about the Edict of Toleration does not prove it.
No, it doesn’t, but Christians claiming it is referring to some other event that happened thousands of years ago does not prove it either.
Would you like to start a thread to discuss the criteria for prophecies?
Since I have no criteria I would not start the thread. You are the one with the criteria, so you should start the thread.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
  1. The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.
  2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.
  3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
  4. The the fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.
  5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.
Even if it was not needed it was used. It must have been used for a reason and only the authors know the reason since they wrote it. ALL of the prophecies are not written in metaphorical language, just some of them. We cannot know why they were written that way, we can only guess why. I told you ome of the reasons I believe they were written that way, because they were not intended ti be straightforward and easy to understand.

This article explains how to interpret prophecies:

Identifying Figurative Language to Interpret Prophecies

The simplest reason is that it's all nonsense.

If course they would say that if they do not want to face the meaning, but they never seem to come up with an alternative meaning. People can always twist meanings.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Some Christians say that Jesus might have finished certain work he was given to do but Jesus has more work to do. The salient problem is that Jesus never said anywhere in the New Testament that he had any more work to do. It’s all there in the Bible but Christians just don’t want to face the reality that Jesus is not coming back to earth, period.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

You don't seem to realise that you have no more claim to having the correct interpretation than they do.

The prophets did not say it clearly possibly because (a) they did not know exactly what was going to happen in the future, and/or (b) the prophets did not want it to be as clear as YOU want it to be because if they were that clear then everyone would be able to figure them out, and that was never the intention of the prophets.

If they DIDN'T know, then it's not a prophecy, it's a guess, and if it comes true then they were lucky and that's all there is to it.

And if they DID know, then why would they not want to be clear about it?

They are really not bundled together, but spiritual ideals are also communicated via metaphors and anyone can understand these simple metaphors. For example:

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

There is a very similar passage in the Baha’i Writings:

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.

Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261

You said the prophets used metaphors to "convey what they were trying to convey to spiritually-minded people who would understand the metaphors." If this is not connected to their prophecies in any way, why did you bring it up?

Sorry but no. You are being illogical. All verses need to be read in context if you really want to know what they mean. Do you grab a book and just read one sentence and expect to understand what it means?

So the prophecy is the whole text then?

Regarding Micah 7:12, in order to know who “he” is you need to read the preceding verses in Micah 7.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Also, in order to know if he did what the verse says, you need to have a man in mind that might have traveled this route, so you can check the history to determine if he really traveled this route.

Then we can say things like, "Does Person A fit this criteria? Yes! But Person B fits it as well, and so does Person C, and D, and E, F, G, H, I, and so on." I guess the prophecy still fails at point 5.

Someone might have taken such a route, but that is a moot point. We are not looking for just anyone; we are looking for someone in particular, the man who would be the return of Christ/Messiah, so that someone would have also have had to fulfill all the OTHER prophecies. That is the key.

So you can pick and choose? "Yes, the prophecy could be about lots of people, but I want it to be about HIM, so that proves I'm right." Fails at Point 5.

So what? It is a moot point that there are other roads that the faithful travel. If you read the verse in context then you can figure out what the verse is referring to.

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8).

Where is “there”? If you read Isaiah 35: 1-2 you find out that the highway will be on Mount Carmel:

The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God. (Isaiah 35:1-2)

I see nothing in there about a highway.

The prophecies are always short on details. The details can be found in the explanations of how the prophecies were fulfilled.

So you are relying on the prophecy being vague. Fail at Point 5.

I guess you are still not getting my point. It is not supposed to be EASY to know what most prophecies mean. Being open to interpretation would make it HARDER to know what it means, and that is the intention. YOU don’t want it to be hard but you are not the one writing the prophecy.

Why would anyone want to make it hard? You know how to make it as hard as possible? Don't make the prophecy in the first place!

Specific, do you mean like: John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. It still didn’t get the point across to Christians did it?

I'm not going to debate the Christian interpretation, and your interpretation of this prophecy does not prove that prophecies are real.

No, I did not say that. All the prophecies that predicted the second coming of Christ/Messiah have some true, since Baha’u’llah came and fulfilled them.

No, you said, "The prophecy is correct because it predicts something that is going to happen, but it has not been fulfilled correctly until that prediction comes true."

You said "going to happen", speaking of a future event. If it's a future event, it hasn't happened yet. If it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't come true.

So what if they had heard of the prophecy? If you think they spent all that money to build the Baha’i World Centre on Mount Carmel in order to fool people into believing that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ you need to have your head examined. At some point common sense needs to be applied to your criteria #4.

Well, if they're going to build it somewhere, they would probably figure they could get a prophecy in the deal as well, right?

The prophecy says:

Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

The road is reserved for people who are holy, for those who are righteous in God’s sight, not people who are foolish or sinful. The verse does not say that no one with even the slightest bit of wickedness has ever stepped foot there. The point is that the road was not built not FOR wicked people, it was for holy people. Again, your criteria fail if you cannot even use logic and common sense.

So it means nothing. It's a completely unfalsifiable claim. Nothing to test. I can claim that the road outside my place was built for only holy people, but there's nothing stopping unholy people using it as well.

You either do not understand anything I have been saying or you or you are just trying to be difficult. It does not MATTER if springs pop up in OTHER deserts, it only matters if they have popped up in the deserts around Mount Carmel before, and no they haven’t seen anything like that landscape on Mount Carmel before the coming of Baha’u’llah.

You need to stop thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is either stupid or being a jerk. It's really very rude. Springs happen in deserts all the time. That's what an oasis is. So the prophecy is talking about something which could have happened anyway, so it fails at Point 1.

I do not have to interpret them to support the Baha’i Faith; they support it because they were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

A conclusion which is based on your interpretation of them.

How can history and geography be misinterpreted? Come up with another interpretation and I will be glad to look at it.

Look at the creationists arguments about how the Grand Canyon was formed and tell me that they can't be misinterpreted.

No, it doesn’t, but Christians claiming it is referring to some other event that happened thousands of years ago does not prove it either.

So then you agree that you can't use this interpretation to support your point.

Since I have no criteria I would not start the thread. You are the one with the criteria, so you should start the thread.

Okie dokie. Determining the Validity of a Prophecy
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
Hi. I deleted my last post regarding this subject because the details were too raw and personal, and while I appreciated the responses, they digressed from the questions.

So, simply, my questions are 1.) If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved, do you still love them and cherish the memories, or do you try to bury it and let go? After all, once in heaven you'll forget anyway. Also, how do you deal with the thought of them suffering in eternal torment even though you know that they deserve it?
Think this ... if so ... if you're right. Then they don't want you to join them there.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You don't seem to realise that you have no more claim to having the correct interpretation than they do.

I did not say I did have such a claim, but if you do not show up to dinner you don’t get to eat. I have asked Christians what they believe these verses mean and maybe only once or twice in eight years have I ever received a response. They simply ignore my posts.
If they DIDN'T know, then it's not a prophecy, it's a guess, and if it comes true then they were lucky and that's all there is to it.
That is only by your standards of what a prophecy has to be. They knew something because they had visions of what was to come, but they did not only know EXACTLY. Only God knows anything exactly.
And if they DID know, then why would they not want to be clear about it?
I have already explained that numerous times. It is YOU who wants the prophecy to be clear, but obviously the prophets did not CARE if it was clear.
You said the prophets used metaphors to "convey what they were trying to convey to spiritually-minded people who would understand the metaphors." If this is not connected to their prophecies in any way, why did you bring it up?
I brought them up because you mentioned spiritual ideals when you said: “Are they to communicate some spiritual ideal? If so, then why bundle them with claims about future events?” I was trying to demonstrate how metaphors are used in all of scriptures, not ONLY in the prophecies.
So the prophecy is the whole text then?
The prophecies (plural) are embedded within the text, so you have to read at least the full chapter to find the prophecies because as you may know scriptures are not linear.
Then we can say things like, "Does Person A fit this criteria? Yes! But Person B fits it as well, and so does Person C, and D, and E, F, G, H, I, and so on." I guess the prophecy still fails at point 5.
The prophecy does not fail at point 5 because there is no Person C, and D, and E, F, G, H, I, and so on. There would be no REASON to even be looking at all the people who traveled the route that would qualify because they never even made a claim to be the return of Christ/Messiah! So now I am going to interject something that is really important. There is no reason to even consider anyone as the return of Christ/Messiah unless they CLAIMED to be him. Here, take this list of claimants:

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

Now see if you can find out if they fulfilled this prophecy:

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

ONLY Baha’u’llah fulfilled that prophecy and also everything else in that chapter.

ONLY Baha’u’llah fulfilled this prophecy:
Micah 7:14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.

My records showed that when Bahá’u’lláh was released from captivity in the final years of his life, he pitched his tent in a small wood in the midst of Carmel. Seated in that tiny clump of cypress trees on the side of that stony, barren mountain, Bahá’u’lláh pointed out the spot where the Shrine of the Báb, his herald, should be erected. From there, he poured out his teachings to his followers. He fed his people and his flock with his words of love and kindness...

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

As I tell Christians, it is not good enough that Jesus fulfills PART of a chapter; Jesus would have to fulfill ALL of the prophecies in that chapter in order to be the Messiah (the returning Christ).

Read Isaiah 53. Jews believe it is about Israel, Christians believe it is about Jesus, and Baha’is believe it is about Baha’u’llah. You have to read the whole chapter and each verse to determine what or who it is about.

Christians and Baha’is believe Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah but only some verses could apply to Jesus whereas all the verses can be applied to Baha’u’llah. Logically speaking then, we know that chapter cannot be about Jesus.

Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men. Certainly, Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 can apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.
So you can pick and choose? "Yes, the prophecy could be about lots of people, but I want it to be about HIM, so that proves I'm right." Fails at Point 5.
No, you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I have said. I do not want it to be about Him, I have determined that it IS about Him by doing my homework.
Above, I just explained – again – that even if other people had taken that route, that prophecy could not apply to them since those people (a) did not fulfill other prophecies that would make them the return of Christ/Messiah and (b) those people did not CLAIM to be the return of Christ/Messiah.
I see nothing in there about a highway.
Isaiah 35:1-2 says that Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord and then Isaiah 35:8 says there will be a highway there.

There were no highways when that was written. It was translated as highway but other translations say road or roadway or path.

Isaiah 35:8 - Bible Gateway
So you are relying on the prophecy being vague. Fail at Point 5.
I meant they do not go into all the details of how the prophecy was fulfilled. I did not say they are vague, but even when they are there are enough non-vague prophecies to piece it together if one really want to know the truth.
Why would anyone want to make it hard? You know how to make it as hard as possible? Don't make the prophecy in the first place!
If you do not like hard and you want to be a believer I suggest you become a Christian and call it a day; either that or just be an atheist, then you won’t have to do anything hard to know the truth about God.
I'm not going to debate the Christian interpretation, and your interpretation of this prophecy does not prove that prophecies are real.
Nothing proves that prophecies are real; we either believe the scriptures are valid or we don’t.
No, you said, "The prophecy is correct because it predicts something that is going to happen, but it has not been fulfilled correctly until that prediction comes true."

You said "going to happen", speaking of a future event. If it's a future event, it hasn't happened yet. If it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't come true.
I do not care what I said before which you apparently misconstrued. Let me start over.

The prophecy predicts something that is going to happen, but it has not been fulfilled until that prediction comes true. The prophecy was written in the past about a future event. We are now living in the future that the prophecy was referring to in the past. What was going to happen happened in the 19th century when Baha’u’llah appeared so the prophecies have come true.
Well, if they're going to build it somewhere, they would probably figure they could get a prophecy in the deal as well, right?
That is too absurd to even reply to and it implies deception and fraud on the part of my religion. It also demonstrates complete ignorance on your part. Hint: It was built on Mount Carmel because that is where Baha'u'llah spent time, where He pitched His tent and wrote His tablets. It was HOLY ground.
So it means nothing. It's a completely unfalsifiable claim. Nothing to test. I can claim that the road outside my place was built for only holy people, but there's nothing stopping unholy people using it as well.
I guess you completely missed my point, again. Even if unholy people walked on the path that does not CHANGE the fact that it was BUILT for holy people.

The other thing is there is something preventing unholy people from using the path, since only Baha’is are allowed on that path during their pilgrimages, it is not a public road. Baha’is are supposed to strive to be holy even though we are not perfect.
You need to stop thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is either stupid or being a jerk. It's really very rude. Springs happen in deserts all the time. That's what an oasis is. So the prophecy is talking about something which could have happened anyway, so it fails at Point 1.
I do not care if it fails YOUR point 1. That does not mean it is not an accurate prophecy that has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah. I have tried to be polite about your criteria but you have been shoving them down my throat and beating me over the head with them and if they were the Word of God and that is rude. I have tried to be reasonable and meet you halfway but all you do is complain and say that it is never good enough.
A conclusion which is based on your interpretation of them.
What else could it be based upon except an interpretation of them, and what I know happened to fulfill the prophecies? That is better than anyone else has.
Look at the creationists arguments about how the Grand Canyon was formed and tell me that they can't be misinterpreted.
That is a red herring because it is not related to what I was talking about.
So then you agree that you can't use this interpretation to support your point.
No, I can’t because I do not fully understand the meaning of the prophecy, but neither do the Christians.
Okay, so you are going out into the limelight... ;) See you there.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
No, I can’t because I do not fully understand the meaning of the prophecy, but neither do the Christians.

.
dont be so sure about that. the prophecy foresaw what it would be like after
Cyrus allowed the Jews to return to the land . yes it would take some work .they had been away for 70 years . land would have to be cleared of trees and the like ,which they did .
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
dont be so sure about that. the prophecy foresaw what it would be like after
Cyrus allowed the Jews to return to the land . yes it would take some work .they had been away for 70 years . land would have to be cleared of trees and the like ,which they did .
You are as free to your interpretation as I am to mine.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I did not say I did have such a claim, but if you do not show up to dinner you don’t get to eat. I have asked Christians what they believe these verses mean and maybe only once or twice in eight years have I ever received a response. They simply ignore my posts.

Then you agree that you could be wrong?

That is only by your standards of what a prophecy has to be. They knew something because they had visions of what was to come, but they did not only know EXACTLY. Only God knows anything exactly.

I'm still not buying it. Even if they had visions of things like computers and planes and all that, they could still describe it without resorting to vague metaphor.

I have already explained that numerous times. It is YOU who wants the prophecy to be clear, but obviously the prophets did not CARE if it was clear.

And as I said, that lack of clarity is explained quite nicely by the fact that it's all made up and they knew if they were specific they'd soon be outed as fakes.

The prophecies (plural) are embedded within the text, so you have to read at least the full chapter to find the prophecies because as you may know scriptures are not linear.

So another failure at Point 5.

The prophecy does not fail at point 5 because there is no Person C, and D, and E, F, G, H, I, and so on. There would be no REASON to even be looking at all the people who traveled the route that would qualify because they never even made a claim to be the return of Christ/Messiah! So now I am going to interject something that is really important. There is no reason to even consider anyone as the return of Christ/Messiah unless they CLAIMED to be him. Here, take this list of claimants:

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

Now see if you can find out if they fulfilled this prophecy:

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

ONLY Baha’u’llah fulfilled that prophecy and also everything else in that chapter.

ONLY Baha’u’llah fulfilled this prophecy:
Micah 7:14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.

My records showed that when Bahá’u’lláh was released from captivity in the final years of his life, he pitched his tent in a small wood in the midst of Carmel. Seated in that tiny clump of cypress trees on the side of that stony, barren mountain, Bahá’u’lláh pointed out the spot where the Shrine of the Báb, his herald, should be erected. From there, he poured out his teachings to his followers. He fed his people and his flock with his words of love and kindness...

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

As I tell Christians, it is not good enough that Jesus fulfills PART of a chapter; Jesus would have to fulfill ALL of the prophecies in that chapter in order to be the Messiah (the returning Christ).

Read Isaiah 53. Jews believe it is about Israel, Christians believe it is about Jesus, and Baha’is believe it is about Baha’u’llah. You have to read the whole chapter and each verse to determine what or who it is about.

Christians and Baha’is believe Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah but only some verses could apply to Jesus whereas all the verses can be applied to Baha’u’llah. Logically speaking then, we know that chapter cannot be about Jesus.

Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men. Certainly, Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 can apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.

Still not buying it. You say we should discount people for arbitrary reasons. You also dismiss the claims of other religions by saying that they passages obviously can't be about Israel or Jesus, yet the followers of those faiths would say that they obviously are. The fact you believe something different to them does not make you correct, no matter how much you believe you are.

No, you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I have said. I do not want it to be about Him, I have determined that it IS about Him by doing my homework.
Above, I just explained – again – that even if other people had taken that route, that prophecy could not apply to them since those people (a) did not fulfill other prophecies that would make them the return of Christ/Messiah and (b) those people did not CLAIM to be the return of Christ/Messiah.

Given how many people have claimed they knew details about the return of Jesus and been wrong, I'm not convinced. Doesn't the Bible say that it will be judgement day or something when Jesus comes back? When are we getting to that part? Or was that prophecy just wrong?

Isaiah 35:1-2 says that Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord and then Isaiah 35:8 says there will be a highway there.

There were no highways when that was written. It was translated as highway but other translations say road or roadway or path.

Isaiah 35:8 - Bible Gateway

So tell me then, the dragons spoken of in verse 7, what are they? Please support your answer with evidence (I want more than just your interpretation of it.)

Also, verse 8 clearly states that unclean people will not pass over it.

I meant they do not go into all the details of how the prophecy was fulfilled. I did not say they are vague, but even when they are there are enough non-vague prophecies to piece it together if one really want to know the truth.

No there aren't. I think you're just taking the ones that can be interpreted to fit what you believe and assuming that is the correct interpretation because it's telling you what you want to hear.

If you do not like hard and you want to be a believer I suggest you become a Christian and call it a day; either that or just be an atheist, then you won’t have to do anything hard to know the truth about God.

Now now, no need to get upset.

Nothing proves that prophecies are real; we either believe the scriptures are valid or we don’t.

So it's about our subjective opinions, not any kind of facts?

That is too absurd to even reply to and it implies deception and fraud on the part of my religion. It also demonstrates complete ignorance on your part. Hint: It was built on Mount Carmel because that is where Baha'u'llah spent time, where He pitched His tent and wrote His tablets. It was HOLY ground.

Plenty of religions have manipulated things to work in their favour.

Mount Carmel has also long been an important site for many religions. So a prophecy that something important would happen there isn't really a far fetched thing. Fail at point 1.

I guess you completely missed my point, again. Even if unholy people walked on the path that does not CHANGE the fact that it was BUILT for holy people.

And it does not change the fact that Isaiah 35:8 clearly states, "the unclean shall not pass over it."

You can't claim that this prophecy is being fulfilled when you literally are claiming that it doesn't mean what it's actually saying.

The other thing is there is something preventing unholy people from using the path, since only Baha’is are allowed on that path during their pilgrimages, it is not a public road. Baha’is are supposed to strive to be holy even though we are not perfect.

So? Christians are supposed to be good people, yet many of them have committed serious crimes. You can't assume that a person is good just because they hold to a particular faith.

I do not care if it fails YOUR point 1. That does not mean it is not an accurate prophecy that has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah. I have tried to be polite about your criteria but you have been shoving them down my throat and beating me over the head with them and if they were the Word of God and that is rude. I have tried to be reasonable and meet you halfway but all you do is complain and say that it is never good enough.

Again you are getting upset.

The reason I have point 1 is because without it, someone could predict that the sun would rise tomorrow, and that counts as a fulfilled prophecy.

What else could it be based upon except an interpretation of them, and what I know happened to fulfill the prophecies? That is better than anyone else has.

That's rather arrogant. "I must be right because in my opinion no one has anything better"?

That is a red herring because it is not related to what I was talking about.

Yeah, me pointing out how young earth creationists misinterpret the geological evidence of the Grand Canyon has nothing at all to do with how people can misinterpret geological evidence...:rolleyes:

No, I can’t because I do not fully understand the meaning of the prophecy, but neither do the Christians.

This really does not help your point.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Then you agree that you could be wrong?
That is not what I said. Hypothetically speaking I could be wrong because anyone can be wrong, but I do not believe I am wrong about the prophecies because I know I am not wrong about who Baha’u’llah was.
I'm still not buying it. Even if they had visions of things like computers and planes and all that, they could still describe it without resorting to vague metaphor.
That could have if they had wanted to.
And as I said, that lack of clarity is explained quite nicely by the fact that it's all made up and they knew if they were specific they'd soon be outed as fakes.
That’s fine if you choose to believe that.
So another failure at Point 5.
Nope.
Still not buying it. You say we should discount people for arbitrary reasons. You also dismiss the claims of other religions by saying that they passages obviously can't be about Israel or Jesus, yet the followers of those faiths would say that they obviously are. The fact you believe something different to them does not make you correct, no matter how much you believe you are.
No, it is not arbitrary to have as a requirement that they claimed to be the return of Christ/Messiah. Otherwise there would be no reason to even be looking at them. The fact that Jews and Christians believe something different than me does not make them correct, no matter how much they believe they are. The hundred-dollar difference between and them is that Baha’u’llah actually fulfilled the prophecies whereas they are still waiting for the prophecies to be fulfilled.
Given how many people have claimed they knew details about the return of Jesus and been wrong, I'm not convinced. Doesn't the Bible say that it will be judgement day or something when Jesus comes back? When are we getting to that part? Or was that prophecy just wrong?
They are wrong because they are expecting things to happen that will never happen because they misinterpreted the Bible prophecies. Since Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ, Judgment Day has come. You can read about it in this page:

The Day of Judgment
Isaiah 35:8 - Bible Gateway

So tell me then, the dragons spoken of in verse 7, what are they? Please support your answer with evidence (I want more than just your interpretation of it.)
They are desert jackals, not dragons, according to newer Bible translations of the verse.

Isaiah 35:7, NLT: "The parched ground will become a pool, and springs of water will satisfy the thirsty land. Marsh grass and reeds and rushes will flourish where desert jackals once lived."

What does Isaiah 35:7 mean?
No there aren't. I think you're just taking the ones that can be interpreted to fit what you believe and assuming that is the correct interpretation because it's telling you what you want to hear.
I am interpreting the prophecies I am familiar with according to what I know actually took place on earth when Baha’u’llah came. I cannot interpret the other prophecies because I don’t know what they are referring to and it could be anything.
Now now, no need to get upset.
I am not upset, I am perfectly calm. I am just calling it like I see it and I see that a few people also did that on your new thread.
So it's about our subjective opinions, not any kind of facts?
There are facts, you just dispute them.
Plenty of religions have manipulated things to work in their favour.
They can try but they do not have actual history in their favor.
Mount Carmel has also long been an important site for many religions. So a prophecy that something important would happen there isn't really a far fetched thing. Fail at point 1.
No fail there because Baha’u’llah perfectly fulfilled those prophecies and nobody else did. Do you have any logical abilities or are you mired in your points as if they are sacred text that everyone has to adhere to?
And it does not change the fact that Isaiah 35:8 clearly states, "the unclean shall not pass over it."
You can't claim that this prophecy is being fulfilled when you literally are claiming that it doesn't mean what it's actually saying.
You are more rigid than a fundamentalist Christian. You insist on interpreting the prophecies literally, but they were not intended to be interpreted that way. But worse yet, you are not even logical. That verse means it was not built for the unclean, but that does not mean that unclean people would ever pass over it.
So? Christians are supposed to be good people, yet many of them have committed serious crimes. You can't assume that a person is good just because they hold to a particular faith.
That is a straw man because I never assumed Baha’is are good people just because they are Baha’is. I said that we are supposed to strive to be holy even though we are not perfect.
Again you are getting upset.
I am not upset, I am just calling it as I see it, and now I can see I am not alone in that because other believers on your new thread feel the same way about your rigidity and unwillingness to see any other pov.
The reason I have point 1 is because without it, someone could predict that the sun would rise tomorrow, and that counts as a fulfilled prophecy.
It wouldn’t count of someone was using common sense. That is all we really need when assessing the prophecies, we do not need to hold fast to all the criteria as if they were a Bible although criteria 2, 3 and 4 should be used to assess if we have a true fulfillment of the prophecies.
That's rather arrogant. "I must be right because in my opinion no one has anything better"?
That is another straw man and I never said my opinion is better, I said I know what Baha’u’llah did to fulfill the prophecies. That is better than anyone else has because nobody else has a claimant who fulfilled these prophecies, they only have beliefs about what they mean. But where is Jesus? Nowhere to be seen. There is nothing arrogant about that, it is just history I am alluding to when I say they were fulfilled.
Yeah, me pointing out how young earth creationists misinterpret the geological evidence of the Grand Canyon has nothing at all to do with how people can misinterpret geological evidence...
C:\Users\Home\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif
How is that related to the prophecies I believe were fulfilled?
This really does not help your point.
I don’t need any help because I knew who Baha’u’llah was 42 years before I ever opened up a Bible and read any prophecies. The prophecies are just something I like to analyze because I like analyzing things.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
That is not what I said. Hypothetically speaking I could be wrong because anyone can be wrong, but I do not believe I am wrong about the prophecies because I know I am not wrong about who Baha’u’llah was.

We've been over this several times now.

You do not know, you just have a very strongly held belief that he was a messenger of God.

That could have if they had wanted to.

And that would gain them nothing. No one gains anything by articulating the verbal building blocks of syntax with a mein that renders them indecipherable to those individuals who ascultate the proclamation.

That’s fine if you choose to believe that.

Thank you so much for your gracious permission for me to believe that prophecies are nonsense.


Yep. The instant you say that we have to go outside the prophecy in order to understand the prophecy, the prophecy is not clear.

No, it is not arbitrary to have as a requirement that they claimed to be the return of Christ/Messiah. Otherwise there would be no reason to even be looking at them. The fact that Jews and Christians believe something different than me does not make them correct, no matter how much they believe they are. The hundred-dollar difference between and them is that Baha’u’llah actually fulfilled the prophecies whereas they are still waiting for the prophecies to be fulfilled.

And the fact that you believe this does not make you correct, no matter how much you believe you are.

They are desert jackals, not dragons, according to newer Bible translations of the verse.

Isaiah 35:7, NLT: "The parched ground will become a pool, and springs of water will satisfy the thirsty land. Marsh grass and reeds and rushes will flourish where desert jackals once lived."

What does Isaiah 35:7 mean?

So the original isn't clear about what it means? Does it say dragons or jackals? The translators weren't sure, that's why we have different translations! Fail at point 5!

I am interpreting the prophecies I am familiar with according to what I know actually took place on earth when Baha’u’llah came. I cannot interpret the other prophecies because I don’t know what they are referring to and it could be anything.

And how much of that familiarity is based on those prophecies being correct?

I am not upset, I am perfectly calm. I am just calling it like I see it and I see that a few people also did that on your new thread.

There are facts, you just dispute them.

You literally just called them beliefs. Beliefs are not facts.

They can try but they do not have actual history in their favor.

LOL I'm sure once you explain it to the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims they'll all be deconverting in droves.

No fail there because Baha’u’llah perfectly fulfilled those prophecies and nobody else did. Do you have any logical abilities or are you mired in your points as if they are sacred text that everyone has to adhere to?

You missed the point.

A temple built on a site that had been an important place in many different religions for many centuries is something that is likely to happen, so it does fail at Point 1.

You are more rigid than a fundamentalist Christian. You insist on interpreting the prophecies literally, but they were not intended to be interpreted that way. But worse yet, you are not even logical. That verse means it was not built for the unclean, but that does not mean that unclean people would ever pass over it.

If it was not meant to be interpreted literally, then the meaning can be twisted into whatever the interpreter wants. Fail at Point 5.

That is a straw man because I never assumed Baha’is are good people just because they are Baha’is. I said that we are supposed to strive to be holy even though we are not perfect.

You don't get my point. The prophecy says that unclean people will not use the road. Now you are claiming that unclean people CAN use the road, it just wasn't made for them. This kind of twisting the words of the prophecy is a failure at point 5.

I am not upset, I am just calling it as I see it, and now I can see I am not alone in that because other believers on your new thread feel the same way about your rigidity and unwillingness to see any other pov.

I'm unwilling to adopt a point of view which requires me to accept a prophecy which was probably going to happen anyway, if that's what you mean. Likewise, I'm unwilling to adopt a point of view which requires me to accept a prophecy which could have been added to an older text after the alleged fulfilling event, or could be based on a fulfilling event which either did not happen the way the prophecy described it as happening, or even at all. I'm unwilling to adopt a point of view which requires me to accept a prophecy which could have been fulfilled because someone read the prophecy and then decided to go and fulfill it just to make the prophecy appear legitimate. And I'm unwilling to adopt a point of view which requires me to accept a prophecy which could mean anything because the language it is written in is so vague. Do you think that anyone should accept as legitimate any prophecies like those?

It wouldn’t count of someone was using common sense. That is all we really need when assessing the prophecies, we do not need to hold fast to all the criteria as if they were a Bible although criteria 2, 3 and 4 should be used to assess if we have a true fulfillment of the prophecies.

That seems to be a very complicated way of saying you agree with Point 1 while saying you do not agree with point 1.

That is another straw man and I never said my opinion is better, I said I know what Baha’u’llah did to fulfill the prophecies. That is better than anyone else has because nobody else has a claimant who fulfilled these prophecies, they only have beliefs about what they mean. But where is Jesus? Nowhere to be seen. There is nothing arrogant about that, it is just history I am alluding to when I say they were fulfilled.

Again, you do not know, you just believe very strongly.

How is that related to the prophecies I believe were fulfilled?

it's not.

It's related to your request that I explain how history and geology could be misinterpreted. If you're just going to dismiss my answers, don't bother asking me any questions.

I don’t need any help because I knew who Baha’u’llah was 42 years before I ever opened up a Bible and read any prophecies. The prophecies are just something I like to analyze because I like analyzing things.

So you feel comfortable saying that you KNOW - not just believe, but you KNOW, as in having actual KNOWLEDGE - that the prophecies were fulfilled, even though you admit to not actually understanding the meaning of these prophecies?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We've been over this several times now.
You do not know, you just have a very strongly held belief that he was a messenger of God.
I don’t know it as a fact, but I know. All knowledge is not factual.
Yep. The instant you say that we have to go outside the prophecy in order to understand the prophecy, the prophecy is not clear.
You can what the words mean without going outside the prophecy but you cannot understand how the prophecy was fulfilled without looking at the actions of the one who fulfilled it, and that entails going outside. You have to connect the dots so to speak.
So the original isn't clear about what it means? Does it say dragons or jackals? The translators weren't sure, that's why we have different translations! Fail at point 5!
Different translations are not different interpretations. That is totally unrelated to point 5. Besides that, point 5 is an unreasonable criteria because there will always be different interpretations, as many different ones as there are people, but that does not mean there is no correct interpretation.
And how much of that familiarity is based on those prophecies being correct?
The prophecies were correct because they were written by the prophets. My familiarity has nothing to do with that.
You literally just called them beliefs. Beliefs are not facts.
What Baha’u’llah did when He came to earth is facts, what I believe about Baha’u’llah is beliefs.
LOL I'm sure once you explain it to the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims they'll all be deconverting in droves.
No, they won’t be because they are hopelessly entrenched I their beliefs.
You missed the point.

A temple built on a site that had been an important place in many different religions for many centuries is something that is likely to happen, so it does fail at Point 1.
You do not know if it was likely to happen so that is a subjective opinion but even if it was likely to happen, that does not mean it did not fulfill the prophecy. That is what you are missing.
If it was not meant to be interpreted literally, then the meaning can be twisted into whatever the interpreter wants. Fail at Point 5.
It can be interpreted in different ways but that does not mean the prophecy was not fulfilled. That is what you are missing. Point 5 is an unreasonable criteria because there will always be different interpretations, as many different ones as there are people, but that does not mean there is no correct interpretation.
You don't get my point. The prophecy says that unclean people will not use the road. Now you are claiming that unclean people CAN use the road, it just wasn't made for them. This kind of twisting the words of the prophecy is a failure at point 5.
“The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it;” Baha’is are not unclean, and nobody else is passing over it so only the clean are passing over it.
I'm unwilling to adopt a point of view which requires me to accept a prophecy which was probably going to happen anyway, if that's what you mean.
The problem is:

a) You do not KNOW what was probably going to happen anyway, so that is only a subjective opinion.
b) If it happened the way the prophecy was written then it fulfilled the prophecy.
Likewise, I'm unwilling to adopt a point of view which requires me to accept a prophecy which could have been added to an older text after the alleged fulfilling event, or could be based on a fulfilling event which either did not happen the way the prophecy described it as happening, or even at all. I'm unwilling to adopt a point of view which requires me to accept a prophecy which could have been fulfilled because someone read the prophecy and then decided to go and fulfill it just to make the prophecy appear legitimate. And I'm unwilling to adopt a point of view which requires me to accept a prophecy which could mean anything because the language it is written in is so vague. Do you think that anyone should accept as legitimate any prophecies like those?
No, and I don’t accept them.
That seems to be a very complicated way of saying you agree with Point 1 while saying you do not agree with point 1.
I do not agree with point 1 for reasons I stated above (a and b).
So you feel comfortable saying that you KNOW - not just believe, but you KNOW, as in having actual KNOWLEDGE - that the prophecies were fulfilled, even though you admit to not actually understanding the meaning of these prophecies?
I do not know the meaning of all the prophecies in the Bible, but I know the meaning of the ones I have cited. I do not have to know the meaning of ALL the prophecies in the Bible in order to know that Baha’u’llah fulfilled them, I just need logical abilities. Whether Baha’u’llah fulfilled the prophecies or no is not contingent upon what I understand because if He was the return of Christ/Messiah He fulfilled ALL the prophecies that refer to the return of Christ/Messiah, even if I had never read the Bible at all.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I don’t know it as a fact, but I know. All knowledge is not factual.

If it's not a fact, how can it be something that can be known?

You can what the words mean without going outside the prophecy but you cannot understand how the prophecy was fulfilled without looking at the actions of the one who fulfilled it, and that entails going outside. You have to connect the dots so to speak.

No. The event that fulfills it is part of the prophecy's life cycle, as it were.

Different translations are not different interpretations. That is totally unrelated to point 5. Besides that, point 5 is an unreasonable criteria because there will always be different interpretations, as many different ones as there are people, but that does not mean there is no correct interpretation.

So the verse that translates it as dragons is the same interpretation as the translation which says jackals? Do you expect anyone to believe that?

The prophecies were correct because they were written by the prophets. My familiarity has nothing to do with that.

Logical fallacy. You can't just assume that anything written by a prophet is automatically correct.

What Baha’u’llah did when He came to earth is facts, what I believe about Baha’u’llah is beliefs.

And the two are not the same thing, are they?

No, they won’t be because they are hopelessly entrenched I their beliefs.

And they could just as easily say the same about you.

You do not know if it was likely to happen so that is a subjective opinion but even if it was likely to happen, that does not mean it did not fulfill the prophecy. That is what you are missing.

Again, you miss my point.

If someone makes a "prophecy" about something that's probably going to happen anyway, that does not make them a prophet! It just makes them someone who knows a safe bet when they see one.

It can be interpreted in different ways but that does not mean the prophecy was not fulfilled. That is what you are missing. Point 5 is an unreasonable criteria because there will always be different interpretations, as many different ones as there are people, but that does not mean there is no correct interpretation.

But it DOES mean that you can never be sure what the correct interpretation is, so you can never be sure that it has actually been fulfilled.

“The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it;” Baha’is are not unclean, and nobody else is passing over it so only the clean are passing over it.

So you are relying on the vagueness of what "unclean" means. Failed at Point 5.

The problem is:

a) You do not KNOW what was probably going to happen anyway, so that is only a subjective opinion.
b) If it happened the way the prophecy was written then it fulfilled the prophecy.

You really don't see it's more probable that they would build a temple on a well established bit of land which is already very important for several religions?

REALLY?

No, and I don’t accept them.

If you don't accept such prophecies, then you agree with my five criteria.

I do not agree with point 1 for reasons I stated above (a and b).

That's very poor reasoning.

By your argument, I could make a prophecy that there will be an earthquake in Japan before the end of the year. In fact, I will. I prophecize that between the time this post is made and the end of 2021, there will be an earthquake in Japan. Now, it's almost certain that Japan will experience an earthquake before the end of the year, since it is on the Ring of Fire and has always had many earthquakes. Over the last decade, Japan has had at least 4 major earthquakes per year. In 2011, they had more than thirty! Japan: number of major earthquakes 2020 | Statista.

And yet, now that I have made such a prophecy, if there is an earthquake in Japan, then you should hail me as a prophet. Does that sound rational to you? It shouldn't. I had no divine knowledge. I just played the numbers game and made a very safe bet. Yet if you try to claim I am not a prophet, I could use your argument against you. "You don't know that the earthquake would have happened if I hadn't made the prophecy! I prophesied an earthquake and an earthquake is what happened! Therefore I am a prophet!"

I do not know the meaning of all the prophecies in the Bible, but I know the meaning of the ones I have cited. I do not have to know the meaning of ALL the prophecies in the Bible in order to know that Baha’u’llah fulfilled them, I just need logical abilities. Whether Baha’u’llah fulfilled the prophecies or no is not contingent upon what I understand because if He was the return of Christ/Messiah He fulfilled ALL the prophecies that refer to the return of Christ/Messiah, even if I had never read the Bible at all.

You were specifically talking about the prophecies you were citing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If it's not a fact, how can it be something that can be known?
Inner certitude, some of which comes from God, who guides those who make an effort and want to be guided.

““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267
No. The event that fulfills it is part of the prophecy's life cycle, as it were.
Yes. That is what I meant.
So the verse that translates it as dragons is the same interpretation as the translation which says jackals? Do you expect anyone to believe that?
No, that is not want I said. It is the same verse but a different translation. If a person reads the translation that says dragons they will probably not know what it means because dragons makes no sense in the context of the verse, so a logical personwould look at other translations, most of which say jackals. Out of many different translations, only a few says dragons so we can assume that is a bad translation.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah 35:8
Logical fallacy. You can't just assume that anything written by a prophet is automatically correct.
I do not assume it, I believe it.
And the two are not the same thing, are they?
No, and I never said that facts and beliefs are the same thing.
And they could just as easily say the same about you.
They could say it but the hundred-dollar difference is that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah applies to the age (dispensation) in which we are living whereas their ancient religions have seen their day and no longer apply.

Dispensation
  1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
  2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
  3. a divinely appointed order or age:
e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com
Again, you miss my point.

If someone makes a "prophecy" about something that's probably going to happen anyway, that does not make them a prophet! It just makes them someone who knows a safe bet when they see one.
Again, you miss my points.

a) You do not KNOW what was probably going to happen anyway, so that is only a subjective opinion.
b) If it happened the way the prophecy was written then it fulfilled the prophecy.
But it DOES mean that you can never be sure what the correct interpretation is, so you can never be sure that it has actually been fulfilled.
You can be sure if you have someone who fulfilled the prophecy exactly as it was written.
So you are relying on the vagueness of what "unclean" means. Failed at Point 5.
No, I know exactly what it means.
You really don't see it's more probable that they would build a temple on a well established bit of land which is already very important for several religions?
REALLY?
No, it is not probable at all that the temple and all the other buildings were built exactly as the prophecies say will happen, then there is no logical reason to think someone went to all that trouble and expense to fool people into believing that the prophecy was fulfilled. Then of course we have all the other prophecies that describe what will be seen on Mount Carmel that also fulfill the prophecies.

From: William Sears, Thief in the Night

Isaiah prophesied that the Plain of Sharon and the holy mountain, Carmel, would both be centers for the light and presence of the ‘Glory of the Lord’ in the last days. Among other things Isaiah said: “It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2). In 1890 Bahá’u’lláh’s tent was raised on Mt. Carmel and the Bahá’í Gardens in Haifa comprise a staircase of nineteen terraces extending all the way up the northern slope of Mount Carmel

“The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.” (Isaiah 35:1).

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2).

“And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” (Isaiah 35:10).

Above Haifa, Israel, stands the Baha’i World Centre on Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.

If you don't accept such prophecies, then you agree with my five criteria.
The prophecies I believe fulfilled the Coming of Baha’u’llah pass all of your criteria because they:

1. Were not something that was probably going to happen anyway

2. Could not have been added to an older text after the alleged fulfilling event

3. Were not based on a fulfilling event which either did not happen the way the prophecy described it as happening, or even at all

4. Were not fulfilled because someone read the prophecy and then decided to go and fulfill it just to make the prophecy appear legitimate

5. Could not mean anything because the language it is written in is so vague
That's very poor reasoning.
I can say the same thing about your reasoning, so who determined what reasoning is poor?
By your argument, I could make a prophecy that there will be an earthquake in Japan before the end of the year. In fact, I will. I prophecize that between the time this post is made and the end of 2021, there will be an earthquake in Japan. Now, it's almost certain that Japan will experience an earthquake before the end of the year, since it is on the Ring of Fire and has always had many earthquakes. Over the last decade, Japan has had at least 4 major earthquakes per year. In 2011, they had more than thirty! Japan: number of major earthquakes 2020 | Statista.

And yet, now that I have made such a prophecy, if there is an earthquake in Japan, then you should hail me as a prophet. Does that sound rational to you? It shouldn't. I had no divine knowledge. I just played the numbers game and made a very safe bet. Yet if you try to claim I am not a prophet, I could use your argument against you. "You don't know that the earthquake would have happened if I hadn't made the prophecy! I prophesied an earthquake and an earthquake is what happened! Therefore I am a prophet!"
It was likely to happen that Christ would return eventually because there are so many Bible prophecies that say Christ will return, but nobody knew WHEN it would happen, HOW it would happen, so what actually happened is not anything anyone would have expected. In other words, the precise details surrounding the return of Christ were not “likely to happen anyway.”

Matthew 24

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of f]">[f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
 
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