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Why is it so important for you to claim your belief is the only true belief?

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
That is fine. But if a person publicly states that the Earth is Flat he is apt to be corrected.
Or just a simple question of "what make you belive the earth is flat" would do, that make the person able to answer why, instead of directly being told "YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT"
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Or just a simple question of "what make you belive the earth is flat" would do, that make the person able to answer why, instead of directly being told "YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT"
And that is usually part of the discussion. My holy book says so is never a valid excuse. It only tells us that either the holy book is wrong or the person's interpretation of it is wrong. Of course this assumes that God cannot lie. If God can lie all bets are off.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
And that is usually part of the discussion. My holy book says so is never a valid excuse. It only tells us that either the holy book is wrong or the person's interpretation of it is wrong. Of course this assumes that God cannot lie. If God can lie all bets are off.
If you have noticed i have become very opend to listen to other religious explenations, and if i do go in to a deeper discussion with them, i would need to take time to see what their teaching says, so i do not bias my self with telling them. "Listen Sufi teaching says this, so it has to be the only truth"

Who am i to tell them what they can and can not believe in, or who am i to tell scientist they can not hold their current understanding of the universe because in my understanding their understanding can not lead to God?
I can disagree as much as i want, but i can not change their way of thinking by forcing my belief on to them.
If a person change their belief or understanding because of something i say, it is they who did the change, i did nothing else then explain what i personally come to believe.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If you have noticed i have become very opend to listen to other religious explenations, and if i do go in to a deeper discussion with them, i would need to take time to see what their teaching says, so i do not bias my self with telling them. "Listen Sufi teaching says this, so it has to be the only truth"

Who am i to tell them what they can and can not believe in, or who am i to tell scientist they can not hold their current understanding of the universe because in my understanding their understanding can not lead to God?
I can disagree as much as i want, but i can not change their way of thinking by forcing my belief on to them.
If a person change their belief or understanding because of something i say, it is they who did the change, i did nothing else then explain what i personally come to believe.
That is fine. But one is less likely to convince others if part of their belief system is demonstrably false. I know that you have a problem with evolution, but the fact of evolution does not refute Sufism. Only certain versions of it. Just as the spherical Earth does not refute Christianity or Islam. It only refutes certain extreme versions of it. B

One can still believe and accept science.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
That is fine. But one is less likely to convince others if part of their belief system is demonstrably false. I know that you have a problem with evolution, but the fact of evolution does not refute Sufism. Only certain versions of it. Just as the spherical Earth does not refute Christianity or Islam. It only refutes certain extreme versions of it. B

One can still believe and accept science.
It is true that evolution as told by science is not they way i personally believe, but you and others do, that is no problem for me to accept
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is true that evolution as told by science is not they way i personally believe, but you and others do, that is no problem for me to accept
You can understand that just as a person stating that the Earth is flat will be corrected so will deniers of evolution. It does not refute general religions when one does so. If I say five plus five is twelve A correction does not bother me..
 
Unfortunate because all religious strife in the world has been because of these religions focused on their version of God. God also is a belief, no proof.

Mother Teresa - Wikipedia

Proof of God's existence is blatantly obvious in the existence of the universe. There's no doubt we have a Creator, according to science.

I suppose you're not familiar with the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy?

It states:
1. Matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only interchanged.
2. The total amount of matter and energy in the universe is a constant.

So...If matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed PER a verified scientific Law...

Please explain how the universe is full of matter and energy!

I'll wait...
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Proof of God's existence is blatantly obvious in the existence of the universe. There's no doubt we have a Creator, according to science.

I suppose you're not familiar with the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy?

It states:
1. Matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only interchanged.
2. The total amount of matter and energy in the universe is a constant.

So...If matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed PER a verified scientific Law...

Please explain how the universe is full of matter and energy!

I'll wait...
The universe is not full of matter and energy. Don't trust me, Google search "what is the total energy of the universe". You might be surprised.
 
The universe is not full of matter and energy. Don't trust me, Google search "what is the total energy of the universe". You might be surprised.

So there's NO matter and energy in the universe?

"Full" obviously does not mean "completely full,' as there is certainly a LOT of empty space.

No kidding.

Regardless, in layman's terms, the universe IS "full" of matter and energy. To deny that fact would be absurd.

To obfuscate that fact is telling, though. CLEARLY you're ducking the simple question I asked in the previous post.

I'll restate, to help, and make it simpler:

If matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed PER a verified scientific Law...

Please explain where all the matter and energy came from!

(Hint: Atheism CANNOT explain this...)
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
you have no concept?...of spirit

argumentive ploys don't work

just make the choice
Once again - you've said nothing and dodged answering my question. Most likely because YOU HAVE NO ANSWER. At least no good answer. The definition is just too amorphous, too foolish and unsupportable.

I'll take a stab though - because I, for one, am not scared to talk about such things plainly. Not like theists who tend to think they are being trapped left and right and up and down - and that mostly because it is just so terribly easy for a theist to become trapped within the illogical flow of thoughts they use to justify their proclamations. There's only so many times you can make stuff up without regard to anything real before you are stepping on your own toes. Happens all the time.

So here's what I would think "spirit" means, and this is based on this vague sense I get of the word's usage by people who tend to throw it around often.

Spirit - n. - a vital essence of life that is thought to not be tied intrinsically to the material body, and yet is said to be its driving force

-or-

Spirit - n. - any non-corporeal or ethereal entity, most often said to exist supernaturally or outside of our nature

How did I do? Did I miss out on some meaning you intended to impart when you keep asking me your ridiculous spin on a "chicken or the egg" question?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So there's NO matter and energy in the universe?

"Full" obviously does not mean "completely full,' as there is certainly a LOT of empty space.

No kidding.

Regardless, in layman's terms, the universe IS "full" of matter and energy. To deny that fact would be absurd.

To obfuscate that fact is telling, though. CLEARLY you're ducking the simple question I asked in the previous post.

I'll restate, to help, and make it simpler:

If matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed PER a verified scientific Law...

Please explain where all the matter and energy came from!

(Hint: Atheism CANNOT explain this...)
That is not what the answer tells you.
The total measured energy of the universe is zero. There is positive and negative energy in physics. The two balance out. That means that the start of the universe did not break any laws of physics.

If you are going to try to prove God using science you need to understand the science that you use.
 
That is not what the answer tells you.
The total measured energy of the universe is zero. There is positive and negative energy in physics. The two balance out. That means that the start of the universe did not break any laws of physics.

If you are going to try to prove God using science you need to understand the science that you use.

Your non-answer answer clearly proves the following:
1. You don't understand physics, and...
2. You have no real answer, because an actual answer undoes your position, so you're obfuscating...

Seriously...Your reply is, to put it mildly, scientifically nonsensical.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Your non-answer answer clearly proves the following:
1. You don't understand physics, and...
2. You have no real answer, because an actual answer undoes your position, so you're obfuscating...

Seriously...Your reply is, to put it mildly, scientifically nonsensical.
Oh my! I answered you. You didn't understand it. Once again in physics there is positive and negative energies. They balance out. Yes, there is energy and matter in the universe. Those are balanced out by negative energy. Your simplistic argument was refuted. Don't get mad because you were caught with your pants down.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Oh my! I answered you. You didn't understand it. Once again in physics there is positive and negative energies. They balance out. Yes, there is energy and matter in the universe. Those are balanced out by negative energy. Your simplistic argument was refuted. Don't get mad because you were caught with your pants down.

Surely dark matter and dark energy are also matter and energy, just with different names.
Positive and negative are mathematical terms and the concept does not mean they cancel each other out.
It sounds like a way to make magic sound scientific.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
IMHO, it is unfortunate that they are focused on their Gods.
As for their service, there is always a price for it. Teressa's help (Aspirin for the dying) was dependent on their acceptance of Christianity.

That sounds like a fabrication.
 
Oh my! I answered you. You didn't understand it. Once again in physics there is positive and negative energies. They balance out. Yes, there is energy and matter in the universe. Those are balanced out by negative energy. Your simplistic argument was refuted. Don't get mad because you were caught with your pants down.

Sorry, you did NOT answer it.

You provided a non-sensical, unscientific reply.

This "positive energy/negative energy" drivel would get you an "F" in an actual physics class, after they stopped laughing at you.

YOU: "Matter an energy in the universe are balanced out by 'negative energy'!"

PROFESSOR: "LOL! Please get out..."


You're done!
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Yeah, the spirit of man has to be crushed. Man should be nothing more than a slave. Times have changed, Thief. Many hate the idea of being slaves.

Most creation stories make man a slave to or play thing of the gods. The Bible God gave us the earth to rule over and take care of and we exploited it and each other.
The Bible God made man in His image and we marred that image.
The Bible God wants to lift us back up and make us His children alongside Jesus His Son, to renew what we were made to be.
We serve the living God who is our maker.
We love the one who loved us first.
The world wants to drag us back down and demands proof.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sorry, you did NOT answer it.

You provided a non-sensical, unscientific reply.

This "positive energy/negative energy" drivel would get you an "F" in an actual physics class, after they stopped laughing at you.

YOU: "Matter an energy in the universe are balanced out by 'negative energy'!"

PROFESSOR: "LOL! Please get out..."


You're done!
Do you seriously think that I cannot support that? This is not controversial. Don't pretend to understand physics when you do not even have a high school level of physics knowledge.
 
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