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Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
YoursTrue said:
The topic here is why you don't accept what the Bible says about jesus. So I would think you'd be willing to discuss that. Maybe you did and I just didn't see it. But again, out of respect for you, I won't push.
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Ha! And here I thought the topic is what do I think about:
YoursTrue said:
perhaps the post death punishments. The Tanach explains that death IS the punishment. No matter we sin a little or a lot.
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Silly me. Man, I am so gullible sometimes. That couldn't possibly have been one of the reasons I wasn't interested in debating this time around.
YoursTrue said:
Being you said you don't want to debate -- I'm not sure what you were referring to
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I'm referring to not being interested into being goaded into a debate by someone who absolutely does not case about my view either way.
 
YoursTrue

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Harel13 said:
Ha! And here I thought the topic is what do I think about:

Silly me. Man, I am so gullible sometimes. That couldn't possibly have been one of the reasons I wasn't interested in debating this time around.

I'm referring to not being interested into being goaded into a debate by someone who absolutely does not case about my view either way.
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I do care, which is why I wonder about some things.
 
YoursTrue

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Harel13 said:
You are. Your posts insinuate that the Jewish view is baseless. I'm not interested in debating the matter.
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How about what Moses wrote? How many ways can a person interpret the choice put before Adam and Eve about life and death? No goading -- just wondering. I realize that some would believe in reincarnation. But is that what Moses wrote about referencing Adam and Eve, life and death put before them? They weren't even Jewish, were they? (No goading, but your comments cause me to wonder :))
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Skywalker said:
That doesn't mean that everything that the rabbis say is biblical. Some rabbis teach reincarnation, a concept that goes against Psalm 23:6. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
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Transmigration of the soul does not contradict Psalm 23:6. It is a both/and situation.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
Nah. They are simply teaching stories, much like fables. I personally never found them difficult to understand. They are only difficult if 1. your thinking is too concrete or 2. you are a decidedly not very spiritual person. I mean, like, the Good Samaritan? You think that's hard to understand?
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The story of the Good Samaritan is not a parable. It is an example of how people are supposed to act. The kingdom of heaven is the subject for parables. A good example is Mt 13:24-50, which clearly states it is a parable about the kingdom of heaven. If it is so easy, what is the tare seed, where is it planted, who in fact plants it, and what happens to those who grow from such a seed, when is it planted, when is it harvested, who is harvested first, and what is the best description of those "tares", grown from such a seed, and what is the best every day description of being thrown into a furnace of fire in the case of Mt 13:42?
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
dybmh said:
Thank you for your reply.

Specifically focusing on John 6:53, the verse is phrased as an Oath. Whatever follows "amen, amen" needs to be completely true, not a parable, else the speaker is lying.

Jewish Virtual Library - Oath

View attachment 49825
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I wasn't able to follow your thinking. The "Word made flesh", such as the Law and the prophets coming in a physical form, and the drinking the blood of the son of man, such as being baptized in the Spirit, such as imbibing the Spirit of God, follows the example of physical versus spiritual, and not the process of a being a parable. I don't under stand your position of Yeshua's saying being an oath, or the relevance of John 6:53 being in a Jewish book, apparently written in Hebrew.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
2ndpillar said:
The story of the Good Samaritan is not a parable. It is an example of how people are supposed to act.
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par·a·ble
/ˈperəb(ə)l/
noun
  1. a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.

The story of the wheat and the tares is a parable. The prodigal son is a parable. The good Samaritan is also a parable. There are many, many more.
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
2ndpillar said:
I wasn't able to follow your thinking. The "Word made flesh", such as the Law and the prophets coming in a physical form, and the drinking the blood of the son of man, such as being baptized in the Spirit, such as imbibing the Spirit of God, follows the example of physical versus spiritual, and not the process of a being a parable. I don't under stand your position of Yeshua's saying being an oath, or the relevance of John 6:53 being in a Jewish book, apparently written in Hebrew.
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I was trying to make a point by going back to the original language for both the Book of John and the Book of Numbers which would have fit nicely into the theme of this thread. But... It was a bit of a flop. Sorry for the confusion.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
dybmh said:
I was trying to make a point by going back to the original language for both the Book of John and the Book of Numbers which would have fit nicely into the theme of this thread. But... It was a bit of a flop. Sorry for the confusion.
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The "book of John" would not have been written in "Hebrew". It was supposedly written in Greek.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
par·a·ble
/ˈperəb(ə)l/
noun
  1. a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.

The story of the wheat and the tares is a parable. The prodigal son is a parable. The good Samaritan is also a parable. There are many, many more.
Click to expand...

As explained by Yeshua, he talked in parables so that those without eyes and ears to see or hear would not understand (Mt 13:13). The story of the good Samaritan, was simply a simply story which anyone could understand, even the wicked, but they could always ignore the lesson taught, by realigning the meaning of words in context, which is the way of today's George Orwell's world.
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
2ndpillar said:
The "book of John" would not have been written in "Hebrew". It was supposedly written in Greek.
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The words in Greek in John 6:53 are "Amen, Amen". The word "Amen" comes from Hebrew, and it has an equivalent meaning. That's why I provided a transliteration of John 6:53.

Strong's Greek: 281. ἀμήν (amén) -- truly

Screenshot_20210504_074030.jpg


When a Jewish person says, "Amen, Amen" the statement given is in the form of an oath. It doesn't matter if the statement following it is in English, Hebrew, or Greek. Example:

"Amen, Amen I'm going to mow the grass today" is in the form of an oath. If I don't intend to actually mow the grass, then I'm either lying or being deceptive. The intention of the speaker is: "You can believe me because I am swearing before God Almighty that I will do this deed. Amen is repeated so there can be no ambiguity".

This idea can be traced back to the Book of Numbers, where "Amen, Amen" is used to administer an oath.
 
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IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
2ndpillar said:
As explained by Yeshua, he talked in parables so that those without eyes and ears to see or hear would not understand (Mt 13:13). The story of the good Samaritan, was simply a simply story which anyone could understand, even the wicked, but they could always ignore the lesson taught, by realigning the meaning of words in context, which is the way of today's George Orwell's world.
Click to expand...

A Complete List of Jesus’ Parables in the New Testament
A Complete List of Jesus’ Parables in the New Testament
  • New Cloth on an Old Coat
  • New Wine in Old Wineskins
  • The Lamp on a Stand
  • The Wise and Foolish Builders
  • The Moneylender forgiving unequal debts
  • The Rich Fool Building His Bigger Barns
  • The Servants Must Remain Watchful
  • The Wise and Foolish Servants
  • The Unfruitful Fig Tree
  • The Parable of the Soils
  • The Weeds Among Good Plants
  • The Growing Seed
  • The Mustard Seed
  • Yeast
  • Hidden Treasure
  • Valuable Pearl
  • Fishing Net
  • Owner of a House
  • Lost Sheep
  • The Master and His Servant
  • The Unmerciful servant
  • The Good Samaritan
  • Friend in Need
  • Lowest Seat at the Feast
  • Invitation to a Great Banquet
  • The Cost of Discipleship
  • Lost Sheep
  • Lost Coin
  • The Prodigal Son
  • The Shrewd Manager
  • The Rich Man and Lazarus
  • The Early and Late Workers in the Vineyard
  • The Persistent Widow and Crooked Judge
  • The Pharisee and Tax Collector
  • The King’s Ten Servants Given Minas
  • Two Sons (one obeys, one disobeys)
  • Wicked Tenants
  • Invitation to a Wedding Banquet
  • The Fig Tree and Signs of the Future
  • The Wise and Foolish Virgins
  • The Talents
  • The Sheep and the Goats
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
A Complete List of Jesus’ Parables in the New Testament
A Complete List of Jesus’ Parables in the New Testament
  • New Cloth on an Old Coat
  • New Wine in Old Wineskins
  • The Lamp on a Stand
  • The Wise and Foolish Builders
  • The Moneylender forgiving unequal debts
  • The Rich Fool Building His Bigger Barns
  • The Servants Must Remain Watchful
  • The Wise and Foolish Servants
  • The Unfruitful Fig Tree
  • The Parable of the Soils
  • The Weeds Among Good Plants
  • The Growing Seed
  • The Mustard Seed
  • Yeast
  • Hidden Treasure
  • Valuable Pearl
  • Fishing Net
  • Owner of a House
  • Lost Sheep
  • The Master and His Servant
  • The Unmerciful servant
  • The Good Samaritan
  • Friend in Need
  • Lowest Seat at the Feast
  • Invitation to a Great Banquet
  • The Cost of Discipleship
  • Lost Sheep
  • Lost Coin
  • The Prodigal Son
  • The Shrewd Manager
  • The Rich Man and Lazarus
  • The Early and Late Workers in the Vineyard
  • The Persistent Widow and Crooked Judge
  • The Pharisee and Tax Collector
  • The King’s Ten Servants Given Minas
  • Two Sons (one obeys, one disobeys)
  • Wicked Tenants
  • Invitation to a Wedding Banquet
  • The Fig Tree and Signs of the Future
  • The Wise and Foolish Virgins
  • The Talents
  • The Sheep and the Goats
Click to expand...

Maybe you should actually read Mt 13:13 to see why Yeshua said he used parables. Under his own description, versus your printed version, the Good Samaritan story does not apply. If it did, you wouldn't understand the meaning according to Yeshua's description. If you had understanding, you could explain who the tare seed was derived from, who were the tares, and where were the tare seeds planted, and who would the angels gather first, and what are the repercussions for the daughters of Babylon. The kingdom of heaven is represented by the prophets in parable form, and in some instances, given detailed insight into the parable. The churches of Babylon don't seem to get it, simply because they have no ears to hear. They choose the tare seed, and are looking at "destruction" (Mt 7:13). The "wicked"/lawless are doomed to have no understanding (Daniel 12:10), and to take part in the furnace of fire (Mt 13:40-42). You won't find "understanding" by looking at your wise and educated indoctrinators (Mt 11:25).
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
dybmh said:
The words in Greek in John 6:53 are "Amen, Amen". The word "Amen" comes from Hebrew, and it has an equivalent meaning. That's why I provided a transliteration of John 6:53.

Strong's Greek: 281. ἀμήν (amén) -- truly

View attachment 50192

When a Jewish person says, "Amen, Amen" the statement given is in the form of an oath. It doesn't matter if the statement following it is in English, Hebrew, or Greek. Example:

"Amen, Amen I'm going to mow the grass today" is in the form of an oath. If I don't intend to actually mow the grass, then I'm either lying or being deceptive. The intention of the speaker is: "You can believe me because I am swearing before God Almighty that I will do this deed. Amen is repeated so there can be no ambiguity".

This idea can be traced back to the Book of Numbers, where "Amen, Amen" is used to administer an oath.
Click to expand...

My English version reads "truly, truly", which is to say he is speaking the truth, and that one must eat the "Word made flesh", which is the Word, the Law and the prophets, being fulfilled, by the power of Spirit, which dwells in the blood, or in a physical sense, drink the representative wine. Note that Yeshua said he would not drink the "new wine" until he returned, which is to say the "new covenant" of Jer 31:31-33, would not be fulfilled until he returned, which is at the end of the age, and is represented by the time when Israel would be gathered from the nations and united with Judah (Ez 36 & 37), when Israel would get a new heart and a new Spirit. Saying that what one says is true, is not an oath. What he saying is it is true that one must eat the bread of life, the Word, and drink the power behind it, which is the Holy Spirit, or you will remain among the walking dead. To enter into life, one must keep the Word/commandments (Mt 19:17).
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
2ndpillar said:
Maybe you should actually read Mt 13:13 to see why Yeshua said he used parables. Under his own description, versus your printed version, the Good Samaritan story does not apply. If it did, you wouldn't understand the meaning according to Yeshua's description. If you had understanding, you could explain who the tare seed was derived from, who were the tares, and where were the tare seeds planted, and who would the angels gather first, and what are the repercussions for the daughters of Babylon. The kingdom of heaven is represented by the prophets in parable form, and in some instances, given detailed insight into the parable. The churches of Babylon don't seem to get it, simply because they have no ears to hear. They choose the tare seed, and are looking at "destruction" (Mt 7:13). The "wicked"/lawless are doomed to have no understanding (Daniel 12:10), and to take part in the furnace of fire (Mt 13:40-42). You won't find "understanding" by looking at your wise and educated indoctrinators (Mt 11:25).
Click to expand...
Say what you want, a parable is a story that teaches a moral or spiritual lesson. I gave you a list of all the stories accepted as parable. Whether you want to have an idiosyncratic view is entirely up to you.
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
2ndpillar said:
My English version reads "truly, truly", which is to say he is speaking the truth, and that one must eat the "Word made flesh", which is the Word, the Law and the prophets, being fulfilled, by the power of Spirit, which dwells in the blood, or in a physical sense, drink the representative wine. Note that Yeshua said he would not drink the "new wine" until he returned, which is to say the "new covenant" of Jer 31:31-33, would not be fulfilled until he returned, which is at the end of the age, and is represented by the time when Israel would be gathered from the nations and united with Judah (Ez 36 & 37), when Israel would get a new heart and a new Spirit. Saying that what one says is true, is not an oath. What he saying is it is true that one must eat the bread of life, the Word, and drink the power behind it, which is the Holy Spirit, or you will remain among the walking dead. To enter into life, one must keep the Word/commandments (Mt 19:17).
Click to expand...
It's not an oath, because you say it's not an oath... OK.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
Say what you want, a parable is a story that teaches a moral or spiritual lesson. I gave you a list of all the stories accepted as parable. Whether you want to have an idiosyncratic view is entirely up to you.
Click to expand...

Yeshua said why he spoke in parables, so that those without eyes and ears cannot understand (Mt 13:13). The fact that you think you understand the story of the Samaritan, kind of strikes that from it being a parable, in the mode Yeshua presented the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" (Mt 13:11). There is no mystery with respect to the Samaritan story, despite what your learned teachers might say (Mt 11:25).
 
W

whosetosay...

Member
2ndpillar said:
Yeshua said why he spoke in parables, so that those without eyes and ears cannot understand (Mt 13:13). The fact that you think you understand the story of the Samaritan, kind of strikes that from it being a parable, in the mode Yeshua presented the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" (Mt 13:11). There is no mystery with respect to the Samaritan story, despite what your learned teachers might say (Mt 11:25).
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It is plain to anyone seeking truth that the parable of the Samaritan thought God chose a different place to dwell rather than Mount Zion in Jerusalem. The Samaritans believed God chose Mount Gerizim near Shechem but they were at loggerheads. The fact is that the jews had different beliefs and so the Pharisees and Sadducee believed opposite things at time. The Samaritan woman by the well showed they believed the Messiah would bring the corrections and he did. The teaching was that those who love God love others. The Samaritan took pity on the man and had him looked after whilst even a priest passed by on the other side and ignored the man beaten and left for dead.

A true neighbor does not pass by they help because they obey God and love others. Christ was teaching about love and anyone is our neighbor even our enemies. DO Good to others.
 
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