Do you determine what is truth?

Hello,

My name is Matthew:

How many people on this board would say that they care about truth?

What are some factors that determines what is able to decide what is being said is truth or not?

Where in the world could we get a determinate to decide what is the truth or not?

In this world, which such a vast majority, along with all of the wisdom that come the world itself - with-in and from all the human beings with-in, is it possible to determine what is the truth out of the world itself?

What are some of the way you decide what is truth or not truth?

The "truth" is what is.

Unfortunately, we humans do not have access to the whole of what is. So we do not have access to "the whole truth". We only have access to a small portion of what is, and from that we cannot be sure that what we think is true, IS true, or would remain true if we know more. So truth, for us, is always relative. And subject to change.

In fact, what we humans call "the truth" is nearly always only a reference to what works for us as being true, at the moment, and under the specific circumstances. We nearly always are equating functionality with truth when these are not the same things, at all, nor are they equivalents. But often functionality is all we have to use as our criteria for determining what is, so we use it to decide for us what is 'the truth'.

The truth is that the truth is beyond our cognitive reach. It's just too big, and too complex, and too sophisticated for us to grasp.

Welcome to RF.

My answer finds echos in various places. Here's a couple:

That which is false troubles the heart, but truth brings joyous tranquility. --- Rumi

"The human heart can see what's hidden to the eyes, and the heart knows
things that the mind does not begin to understand." --- The movie "They Might Be Giants"

MatthewA said:

Hello,

My name is Matthew:

How many people on this board would say that they care about truth?

What are some factors that determines what is able to decide what is being said is truth or not?

Where in the world could we get a determinate to decide what is the truth or not?

In this world, which such a vast majority, along with all of the wisdom that come the world itself - with-in and from all the human beings with-in, is it possible to determine what is the truth out of the world itself?

What are some of the way you decide what is truth or not truth?

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Truth can be known to oneself but it can’t be proven by someone to another. There is no how that explains the process of knowing it.

PureX said:

The "truth" is what is.

Unfortunately, we humans do not have access to the whole of what is. So we do not have access to "the whole truth". We only have access to a small portion of what is, and from that we cannot be sure that what we think is true, IS true, or would remain true if we know more. So truth, for, is always relative. And subject to change.

In fact, what we humans call "the truth" is nearly always only a reference to what works for us as being true, at the moment, and under the specific circumstances. We nearly always are equating functionality with truth, when these are not the same things, at all, nor are they equivalents. But often functionality is all we have to use as our criteria for determining what is, so we use it to decide for us what is 'the truth'.

The truth is that the truth is beyond our cognitive reach. It's just too big, and too complex, and too sophisticated for us to grasp.

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Hello PureX, thank you for explaining the way that you see, and view truth which is always foremost relative and subject to change.

Though do believe there is a way to at least have some of the truth, but that come by and through faith on the Lord Jesus Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life but that is subjective, and has to be explored around by the individual.

sun rise said:

Welcome to RF.

My answer finds echos in various places. Here's a couple:

That which is false troubles the heart, but truth brings joyous tranquility. --- Rumi

"The human heart can see what's hidden to the eyes, and the heart knows
things that the mind does not begin to understand." --- The movie "They Might Be Giants"

Click to expand...

Thank you for your comment Sun rise.

Power Stone said:

Truth can be known to oneself but it can’t be proven by someone to another. There is no how that explains the process of knowing it.

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Hello Power Stone ~ Truth can be known to oneself but it can not be proven by someone to another. There is no how that explains the process of knowing it - truth.

Okay thank you for explaining that. So truth can be known to be know to ones self. But not proven to someone to another.

If it was in a hypothetical crime session; and you had to explain all the events according to your knowledge, most people who do not hide anything will tell the most accurate truth according to their memory.

So to some degree or another Truth is able to be made known. Unless I am wrong which is almost always. Thank again for posting.

I agree that we can only know part of the truth, however, to come as close to truth as possible, one has to be austere, and have calmed their mind to a certain state.

In the eternal dharma we are taught that in this material world, there are always 3 modes of material nature :

1. sattva -- mode of pure goodness [ => results in peace, joy, pleasant feelings, good health ]
2. rAjas -- mode of pure passion
3. tAmas or tamoguNa -- mode of ignorance

There is always a mix of these three in all living mortals.

The goodness brings auspiciousness, and does good.

The mode of passion is necessary in small amounts otherwise there will be no motivation to act or take care of oneself, - be it for a short term result, due to over-selflessness, no drive as such to accomplish things.
More than this small amount results in harm to the individual and surroundings -- as they can go to extremes, causing distress, selfishness can rise, it can affect health, etc. Too much of rAjas, rajoguNa is not good.

The mode of ignorance has the property of lethargy, sluggishness, ignorance, darkness, and in extreme ends, it can be very destructive to the individual and their surrounding.

The idea is to strive to increase sattva in you, which automatically opens up the gate to intuition, intuitive intellectual discrimination or what is good and auspicious, hence closest to the truth.

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Take music as a simple example. A yogi who has calmed their mind will be able to detect which music is tAmasic and which is sAttvic.

tAmasic music is self-defeating. Those who think it is cool, are not in touch with their inner being and do not know what is really good for them.
e.g. IMHO harsh rock-heavy metal music where all you hear is unpleasant noise that hurts your ears and causes distress, and cannot even hear the lyrics, or the lyrics themselves are tAmasic, is self-defeating. IMHO.

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That being said, this world is the framework of relative existence. Everything is relative, and at the absolute level, this does not exist - we say -- beyond the modes of nature -- beyond the guNa
Having transcended the 3 modes, that is where spirituality lies with no traces of the material.

In this world, however, tending towards sattva is the key.

MatthewA said:

Thank you for your comment Sun rise.



Hello Power Stone ~ Truth can be known to oneself but it can not be proven by someone to another. There is no how that explains the process of knowing it - truth.

Okay thank you for explaining that. So truth can be known to be know to ones self. But not proven to someone to another.

If it was in a hypothetical crime session; and you had to explain all the events according to your knowledge, most people who do not hide anything will tell the most accurate truth according to their memory.

So to some degree or another Truth is able to be made known. Unless I am wrong which is almost always. Thank again for posting.

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I’m talking about a greater truth

Truth is, to me, synonymous with facts. Everything else is a best guess or learnt from one's experience, which may differ from someone else's.

ameyAtmA said:

I agree that we can only know part of the truth, however, to come as close to truth as possible, one has to be austere, and have calmed their mind to a certain state.

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Hello Ameyatma, You believe we can only know part of the truth however to become close; one has to be austere, calm and in a certain state of mind to receive the truth.

To some degree or another do agree with the certain state of mind of desiring to know the truth possibly.

ameyAtmA said:

In the eternal dharma we are taught that in this material world, there are always 3 modes of material nature :

1. sattva -- mode of pure goodness
2. rAjas -- mode of pure passion
3. tAmas or tamoguNa -- mode of ignorance

There is always a mix of these three in all living mortals.

The goodness brings auspiciousness, and does good.

Click to expand...

That is an interesting belief; never heard anything like it explained to me, before AmeyAtma.

In Christianity; it seems to me as humans we all have a body, mind/will/emotion ~ wrapped in a body of flesh but that there is more than just the material side of the world however, there is a spiritual side as well ~ That has to deal with God, and the Lord Jesus Christ and the wisdom they have to share unto us that comes from the bible ~ which to me is an indicator for truth when it comes to the truth about God, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

ameyAtmA said:

The mode of passion is necessary in small amounts otherwise there will be no motivation to act or take care of oneself, - be it for a short term result, due to over-selflessness, no drive as such to accomplish things.
More than this small amount results in harm to the individual and surroundings -- as they can go to extremes, selfishness can rise, it can affect health, etc. Too much of rAjas, rajoguNa is not good.

The mode of ignorance has the property of lethargy, sluggishness, ignorance, darkness, and in extreme ends, it can be very destructive -- anger, hate all lie here.

The idea is to strive to increase sattva in you, which automatically opens up the gate to intuition, intuitive intellectual discrimination or what is good and auspicious.

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Thank you, very informative of the nature of the human being AmeyAtma. Would agree to the idea of us and how our behaviors are, as you explained.

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ameyAtmA said:

Take music as a simple example. A yogi who has calmed their mind will be able to detect which music is tAmasic and which is sAttvic.

tAmasic is self-defeating. Those who think it is cool, are not in touch with their inner being and do not know what is really good for them.

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Ameyatma, interesting. I never have done yoga or anything like that, to music or out in nature. Never heard of tAmasic but it sounds like when a person talks down to themselves as if they may not be good enough in life. And the flesh is taking them down - Inner soul - self defeating - inner self - Mind/Will/Emotion - Person.

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ameyAtmA said:

That being said, this world is the framework of relative existence. Everything is relative, and at the absolute level, this does not exist - we say -- beyond the modes of nature -- beyond the guNa
Having transcended the 3 modes, that is where spirituality lies with no traces of the material.

In this world, however, tending towards sattva is the key.

Click to expand...

Thank you for explaining again.

MatthewA said:

In Christianity; it seems to me as humans we all have a body, mind/will/emotion ~ wrapped in a body of flesh but that there is more than just the material side of the world however, there is a spiritual side as well

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I agree, there is most certainly the spiritual side. This is our connection to the spiritual and our inner-most self is actually spiritual, not material as you have said.

Ameyatma, interesting. I never have done yoga or anything like that, to music or out in nature.

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Yog is not just of one kind, and what you are referring to may be a method.
Yoga means that which joins, connects, or the art of connecting to the Divine is Yoga.

Yoga is established means our connection to God has been established. Shri Krishna elaborates on this thru the Bhagvad Geeta and the way to do so in Chapter 6.

The exercises are haTha Yoga, an important step, and a means or a recommended pre-requisite to achieving Yog with the Divine.

So other religions, in their attempt to connect are also attempting Yog.

Never heard of tAmasic but it sounds like when a person talks down to themselves as if they may not be good enough in life. And the flesh is taking them down - Inner soul - self defeating - inner self - Mind/Will/Emotion - Person.

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Certainly this is one example of what is tAmasic.
TamoguNa can result in harm to oneself but also to others. It is a different story that harming others causes pain to the soul of the harmer.
It causes harm, destruction. At the extreme end, taking lives of others, not just of oneself, when that is not justified by law or reason, is tAmasic.

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Thank you for explaining again.

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You are most welcome. I like exchange of ideas too.

MatthewA said:

New Hello,

My name is Matthew:

How many people on this board would say that they care about truth?

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Oh! Welcome to the forum, @MatthewA.

I can't speak for others, but as for myself, I definitely do care about the truth. I care about the truth, and I care about people. That's why I'm in the health care field!

MatthewA said:

What are some factors that determines what is able to decide what is being said is truth or not?

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Well, that requires a healthy epistemology. If there are things in my belief system that I recognize have potential problems in representing what objective reality actually is, I take active measures in readjusting my beliefs according to the better information that comes along. It's been working pretty well for me, so far.

MatthewA said:

Where in the world could we get a determinate to decide what is the truth or not?

Click to expand...

Well, that depends on the subject at hand. If we are talking about things in the greater world, science is a tool designed specifically to understand objective reality, and it has a proven track record. While it's not perfect, it is self correcting, and it always seems to get to the heart of what reality actually IS in the long run.

As for in my personal life, trial and error. With the more things I learn about myself and my surroundings, the more I learn what works and what doesn't. It's messy, but I always seem to find myself in a better place than I was before.

MatthewA said:

In this world, which such a vast majority, along with all of the wisdom that come the world itself - with-in and from all the human beings with-in, is it possible to determine what is the truth out of the world itself?

Click to expand...

Sure - if you have the patience and desire to explore all that's there. As far as theology is concerned, that's taken most of my life, and I still have so much to learn. The moment one thinks they have it all figured out is the moment they stop learning, and that's a notion I actively fight against.

MatthewA said:

What are some of the way you decide what is truth or not truth?

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Well, if something can be repeatably and consistently demonstrated, that works for me. If it can't... Ehhh... I become skeptical, and I pull at the seams until I unravel it and figure out what else could be the cause.

ameyAtmA said:

e.g. IMHO harsh rock-heavy metal music where all you hear is unpleasant noise that hurts your ears and causes distress, and cannot even hear the lyrics, or the lyrics themselves are tAmasic, is self-defeating. IMHO.

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IMHO it's Justin Bieber that causes me distress

I don't believe in truth as used for oneness, mystery of the universe, god, one reality, love etc. I see truth as subjective if I used the word and everyone has their own definition(s) of truth(s).

MatthewA said:

How many people on this board would say that they care about truth?

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I care a lot about my values and learning more about past and present experiences. I guess truth (not Truth) would be aligning myself with my values and using my experiences (literally) to decide what I want to do and decisions I make today.

MatthewA said:

What are some factors that determines what is able to decide what is being said is truth or not?

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1. What are your values? (Things you can't part with as in life/death situation)
2. Beliefs (Your beliefs, faith, Practice, so have you that makes up your worldview)
3. Experiences (What experiences define-if they do-who you are present day)

MatthewA said:

Where in the world could we get a determinate to decide what is the truth or not?

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From you

MatthewA said:

In this world, which such a vast majority, along with all of the wisdom that come the world itself - with-in and from all the human beings with-in, is it possible to determine what is the truth out of the world itself?

Click to expand...

No. I wouldn't assume there is any. To me that's like putting the world's values in a box.

MatthewA said:

What are some of the way you decide what is truth or not truth?

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Looking at past experiences, what I value, passions, what I believe, and who I go to for support.

Truth to me is about the character of what is being done and said. Truth is about the value of knowing things the way they really are.

Truth is about honesty and who deserves.

Facts are simply the way things are. Truth is the character of knowing something. If I am true to other people then I will give them the truth of what they deserve; positive or negative as whatever the case may be.

As opposed to being true there is falsehood. Falsehood is deceit with intent to steal or harm, or revealing something to somebody undeserved without regard for character.

SigurdReginson said:

Oh! Welcome to the forum, @MatthewA.

I can't speak for others, but as for myself, I definitely do care about the truth. I care about the truth, and I care about people. That's why I'm in the health care field!

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Thank you for the welcome, SigurdReginson.

That is a great thing to care for is truth. Truth is a great way to help those who you care about too. Very interesting job field, helping others.

SigurdReginson said:

Well, that requires a healthy epistemology. If there are things in my belief system that I recognize have potential problems in representing what objective reality actually is, I take active measures in readjusting my beliefs according to the better information that comes along. It's been working pretty well for me, so far.

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What is epistemology? Sounds like your way of handling problems of what truth is leads more light in to having other discussions later.

SigurdReginson said:

Well, that depends on the subject at hand. If we are talking about things in the greater world, science is a tool designed specifically to understand objective reality, and it has a proven track record. While it's not perfect, it is self correcting, and it always seems to get to the heart of what reality actually IS in the long run.

As for in my personal life, trial and error. With the more things I learn about myself and my surroundings, the more I learn what works and what doesn't. It's messy, but I always seem to find myself in a better place than I was before.

Click to expand...

SigurdReginson: Would agree science is most certainly a tool, that can be used to help do studies and test on the world material matters that are involved with how we measure, and how we also use science to create things, from stop lights, to cameras, to rockets, to whatever else you can possibly think of.

There is nothing wrong with the use of Science as long as you are not taking people to take them apart trying to sow together a living monster type of thing in your basement, as long as you are not really doing this horrifying things one would suspect right?

Also what is the definition of Science again? (haven't seen in it in ages).

SigurdReginson said:

Sure - if you have the patience and desire to explore all that's there. As far as theology is concerned, that's taken most of my life, and I still have so much to learn. The moment one thinks they have it all figured out is the moment they stop learning, and that's a notion I actively fight against.



Well, if something can be repeatably and consistently demonstrated, that works for me. If it can't... Ehhh... I become skeptical, and I pull at the seams until I unravel it and figure out what else could be the cause.

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Would agree, there is always something new to learn, ~ Even with theology to some extent or another ~ Learning about God, and the Lord Jesus Christ is an awesome way to grow in spiritual truths that come from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Welcome to RF

MatthewA said:

What are some of the way you decide what is truth or not truth?

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Depending on how much it matters to me, various degrees of evidence.

MatthewA said:

Where in the world could we get a determinate to decide what is the truth or not?

In this world, which such a vast majority, along with all of the wisdom that come the world itself - with-in and from all the human beings with-in, is it possible to determine what is the truth out of the world itself?

Click to expand...

These two...it depends completely on what the truth is about.

MatthewA said:

What are some of the way you decide what is truth or not truth?

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Hello Matthew,
What you call 'the Truth' is really Self-realisation or what Jesus calls the Rule ("kingdom") of God.
It is not something unique to Christianity but universal and accessible to all human beings who are sincere in seeking it.

It can be reached by following a particular path or a particular spiritual cult which was also taught by the historical Jesus and by a number of other such teachers.

Repeating a fundamentalist religious slogan is not the truth, it is not the way to the Rule of God as taught by the historical Jesus.

Secret Chief said:

IMHO it's Justin Bieber that causes me distress

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Hello Secret Chief - This was funny haha.

Unveiled Artist said:

I don't believe in truth as used for oneness, mystery of the universe, god, one reality, love etc. I see truth as subjective if I used the word and everyone has their own definition(s) of truth(s).



I care a lot about my values and learning more about past and present experiences. I guess truth (not Truth) would be aligning myself with my values and using my experiences (literally) to decide what I want to do and decisions I make today.

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You do not believe in truth as used for oneness, mystery of the universes, god, one reality, love ~

So no of those things are involved with truth ~ Which includes oneness, mystery of the universes, god, one reality or even love.

None of those things are included in truth. ??

~~
You care a lot about your values, learning more about past and present experiences.

Unveiled Artist said:

1. What are your values? (Things you can't part with as in life/death situation)
2. Beliefs (Your beliefs, faith, Practice, so have you that makes up your worldview)
3. Experiences (What experiences define-if they do-who you are present day)

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Those are some good ways to determine truth about a person and their character depending on whatever it is they may say to you.

Unveiled Artist said:

From you

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But what if I tell you a lie or something that is not the truth?

How can you determine truth then ?

Unveiled Artist said:

No. I wouldn't assume there is any. To me that's like putting the world's values in a box.



Looking at past experiences, what I value, passions, what I believe, and who I go to for support.

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Okay. Thank you for posting, Unveiled Artist.

Marcion said:

Hello Matthew,
What you call 'the Truth' is really Self-realisation or what Jesus calls the Rule ("kingdom") of God.
It is not something unique to Christianity but universal and accessible to all human beings who are sincere in seeking it.

It can be reached by following a particular path or a particular spiritual cult which was also taught by the historical Jesus and by a number of other such teachers.

Repeating a fundamentalist religious slogan is not the truth, it is not the way to the Rule of God as taught by the historical Jesus.

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Hello Marcion: My only retort would be : No one is able to come to the Father (God) except through the Lord Jesus Christ (Gods Son). -

Which is truth based on the bible and what it states in the case of people coming to God, the truth is they must come by way of the Lord Jesus Christ ~ and believers are baptized by the holy spirit and fire through belief an faith of the Lord Jesus Christ who came, died, and was resurrected again.

That is all I can say brother, thank you for taking time to comment, Marcion.