• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Does your belief / religion ect offer a better deal ?

John1.12

Free gift
Christianity is ALSO about what you have to do and keep doing, IF you believe in Jesus and not Paul.
(Please see the verses I posted in a post I just answered above.)

What's wrong with doing stuff? Stuff that you get for free in this life is usually not worth having. Why would the rules for getting to heaven be any different than the rules we live by on earth?
Your last statement is called 'works righteousness religion ' Its the complete opposite of biblical christianity.
 

John1.12

Free gift
Matt 7:21 says that those who do the will of the Father and not just say "lord, lord".

Now I know someone will twist this into an intellectual pretzel to mean the opposite, but that's not what it says in plain language.
Do you feel like you quoted the actual verse there ?
 

John1.12

Free gift
Well, I finally got to the end of my long list of your posts and this is the last one.
If there were any questions I said I would answer later you will have to remind me what they were....
Meanwhile.

Barry Johnson said: what is on offer by Jesus cannot be ' bettered '

Trailblazer said: Wanna bet?

So what is on offer by Jesus that you believe cannot be bettered?
If we stick strictly with the afterlife, I believe that can be bettered. For one thing, what do you even know about heaven and what you will get when you attain eternal life? If you do not know what heaven consists of how can you know it cannot be bettered?

Below is one of the assurances that I have. There are more but this is a brief one that I especially like given all I have suffered in this life.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329
1 Corinthians 2:9
King James Version

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

I know it will be better than Eden , Some think this life has beauty . It does to a degree ,because it was created perfectly before the fall and does retain some reminders of what it must have been like , but only partially . Even a beautiful flower eventually fades and dies . Now I can imagine Heaven even more perfect than before the fall ,where God Dwells .
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
We will have everything needed , first glorified bodies that as I've stated. We will be like him ( Jesus as stated in the sense and context of this verse , of course not God or as God )

1 John 3:2-3
King James Version

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
There is somethings that are not fully explained as to every detail to what it will fully be and what it will be like exactly. I don't think we would grasp it fully if it was given. But a lot is given ,that blows my mind already. God's existence and the one we will share is not something I've experienced. Although you are given a ' experience ' of it when you recieve the Holy Spirit. But I guess as the verse describes above we do change spiritually now and we change then with glorification. From the biblical narrative, the desire to be relationally with the one who has created everything , fills me with Joy. To still experience love , joy and peace and be relational and experience that on a limitless and on a level I can only imagine. To live. The bible reveals that were kinda living such a ' dim ' life , like in back and white rather than full HD colour, with surround sound . or like a hologram and that actually this life is not as ' real ' as the next, with God . This is what I desire . To live with God . A greater existence, eternal. Learning, growing in love and joy . Beyond that I'm back in the fish bowl trying to imagine life without water . At best we have a tangible glimpse of heaven from Jesus, his life his resurrection and his words . When I used to believe similar to what you believe, I had to imagine ' myself ' no longer in the equation . As hard as I tried that never filled me with Joy . Only dread and sadness. Yes , now I long to be rid of my sin full body ,in replace of a new one, like Jesus s resurrected body , limitless in a way I don't understand yet . But I'm still me . I don't become a universe creator, no , I don't mergre into God , an impersonal energy that I don't know or understand, something I cannot relate to or have a relationship with ..I'm not sure why you see that as better?
Because it is not an impersonal entity that I do not understand. I know and understand it, and I know that IT is what I truly am. So I know IT better than my own individuated self.
The problem you faced was that despite what you practiced, you were unable to go beyond identifying yourself with the ego self. You were unable to perceive the higher self that you are from the ego self which you mistake yourself to be. That is why you said "I am still me". This thought of this ego me dissolving into the Greater Me fills you with dread and sadness and depression. Yet there is nothing there to be depressed about. It's a quantum jump in identity where your identity suddenly jumps from the ego-self to the true self. The curtain of self-obsession, self-centered thoughts and emotions, self-oriented internal monologues... all those things that feeds and sustains the ego self.... just breaks sway like the cracking of an egg shell. Then the golden true Self within emerges with its Vastness, Limitness vision and Immensity of Scope And Reach. And you become IT. You see then that were this the whole time, and the old ego self was simply a film that hid what you truly were. So why would I want stay forever in my older limited form?
I can assure you that this transformation happens. It happened with me and with many people who are and had been in this path for many thousand years. It is the Brahman of the Upanisads, the Form of the Good of Plato, the Dao of China, the unbinding of Buddha.
Since I have directly experienced this, I do not actually need any promises from any scriptures about heaven or anything else for reliance or justification. I simply use these scriptures sometimes as they can describe the thing more clearly than how I can express it. But I can quote Scriptures if you wish.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
1 Corinthians 2:9
King James Version

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

I know it will be better than Eden , Some think this life has beauty . It does to a degree ,because it was created perfectly before the fall and does retain some reminders of what it must have been like , but only partially . Even a beautiful flower eventually fades and dies . Now I can imagine Heaven even more perfect than before the fall ,where God Dwells .
The Baha'i Faith offers the same kinds of promises.

 

John1.12

Free gift
Because it is not an impersonal entity that I do not understand. I know and understand it, and I know that IT is what I truly am. So I know IT better than my own individuated self.
The problem you faced was that despite what you practiced, you were unable to go beyond identifying yourself with the ego self. You were unable to perceive the higher self that you are from the ego self which you mistake yourself to be. That is why you said "I am still me". This thought of this ego me dissolving into the Greater Me fills you with dread and sadness and depression. Yet there is nothing there to be depressed about. It's a quantum jump in identity where your identity suddenly jumps from the ego-self to the true self. The curtain of self-obsession, self-centered thoughts and emotions, self-oriented internal monologues... all those things that feeds and sustains the ego self.... just breaks sway like the cracking of an egg shell. Then the golden true Self within emerges with its Vastness, Limitness vision and Immensity of Scope And Reach. And you become IT. You see then that were this the whole time, and the old ego self was simply a film that hid what you truly were. So why would I want stay forever in my older limited form?
I can assure you that this transformation happens. It happened with me and with many people who are and had been in this path for many thousand years. It is the Brahman of the Upanisads, the Form of the Good of Plato, the Dao of China, the unbinding of Buddha.
Since I have directly experienced this, I do not actually need any promises from any scriptures about heaven or anything else for reliance or justification. I simply use these scriptures sometimes as they can describe the thing more clearly than how I can express it. But I can quote Scriptures if you wish.
The flesh is the issue . The sinfull desires ect are due to the ' body of flesh " . This all changes at glorification for those in Christ . So all those issues go away for me upon the redemption of my body at the return of Christ .
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The flesh is the issue . The sinfull desires ect are due to the ' body of flesh " . This all changes at glorification for those in Christ . So all those issues go away for me upon the redemption of my body at the return of Christ .
If you are counting on that to happen when Christ returns there should be support in the Bible that Christ is going to return, but there is not one single verse where Jesus says he is going to return to this world, and instead we have verses where Jesus says his work is finished here and he is no more in the world. Why then do Christians who claim to believe in the Bible believe that Jesus is coming back? It makes no sense at all.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
 

John1.12

Free gift
No, it is only the opposite of what Paul taught.
Jesus taught Paul to write all what Jesus wanted to be taught to the Church in the 13 epistles. Now there's this odd teaching out there that says that Paul wrote contrary to Jesus . This is as silly as saying Moses wrote contrary to Jesus. Remember, Jesus didn't write anything.
 

John1.12

Free gift
If you are counting on that to happen when Christ returns there should be support in the Bible that Christ is going to return, but there is not one single verse where Jesus says he is going to return to this world, and instead we have verses where Jesus says his work is finished here and he is no more in the world. Why then do Christians who claim to believe in the Bible believe that Jesus is coming back? It makes no sense at all.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
The fact that Christians are still on the earth means the Lord hasn't returned . So this verse is still pending . No one knows the exact moment of the rapture . It could be today or another 100 years . This is the wackiest argument to date . The whole book of revelation shows the Lords return. Yet future. None of the events have happened yet. The rapture happens first . Then when those who have died in Christ rise first and WE ( all believers) will meet the Lord in the air. Then the anti Christ is revealed and the great tribulation begins . This is the A B C ,s
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus taught Paul to write all what Jesus wanted to be taught to the Church in the 13 epistles.
Then why is what Paul wrote so contrary to what Jesus taught?

“That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ….

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy….

Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……

The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. “

(Udo Schaefer, Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ )

How Paul changed the course of Christianity
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The fact that Christians are still on the earth means the Lord hasn't returned . So this verse is still pending . No one knows the exact moment of the rapture . It could be today or another 100 years .
It will be never unless Jesus lied or the Bible is in error.
How do you explain these verses?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

This is the wackiest argument to date . The whole book of revelation shows the Lords return. Yet future. None of the events have happened yet.
The Book of Revelation refers to a man who will come with another name, not to Jesus.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

All these events took place when Baha'u'llah came and the rest will be fulfilled during the messianic age which started in 1852 AD and will last no less than 1000 years.
The rapture happens first . Then when those who have died in Christ rise first and WE ( all believers) will meet the Lord in the air. Then the anti Christ is revealed and the great tribulation begins . This is the A B C ,s
No, all the Christians are not going to go up in the air all at once and meet Jesus, defying gravity.
No, it is a misinterpretation of the Book of Revelation. There is no rapture and there is no tribulation. Apparently you believe everything you have been taught by Christianity in spite of the fact that it makes no sense and it is in-congruent with what Jesus says in the gospels.
 
Top